splatoon’s ability system

[ThestralZ]

Actually the more I'm thinking about it, the more I think this is probably an overly complicated fix that doesn't address one of the problems. Really, the real issue with utility subs is that some weapons are so gear dependant that after accounting for that plus utility subs there is little room for experimentation (whereas other weapons don't have this issue). If they rebalanced those gear dependant weapons so they were less restrictive it could be enough.

The way I see it is gear-dependent weapons are weapons that can't do more than one thing. Splattershot isn't gear dependent because you can be aggressive with it or play more supportively with it. Compare that to Sploosh who can really only be aggressive and thus needs qr, ninja squid and swim speed, or Jr. who needs sub saver to use its second bomb. So my takeaway Is that the gear problem is just the short range shooter problem and the grinding problem standing on each other's shoulders wearing a trench coat.

 

[youre_a_squib_now]

I kind of wish you could swap abilities on between two pieces of gear (so for instance if there is a piece of gear you like with an ability you don't you could swap abilities with a piece of gear you don't like with an ability you do). I don't think they will every do this though. To be a little cynical, making farming abilities so grindy is probably done on purpose so that people will play the game more.

see this squid school video for why the current system is great, actually

 

[Driftwood]

see this squid school video for why the current system is great, actually

I love Squid School (and Rogue English Teacher while he made them), but on this particular topic...I don't necessarily disagree but I really do prefer to choose gear that I think goes well together (thank the great zapfish you can determine and use gear seeds to make specific builds). And I know a lot of people just choose gear regardless of ability because it looks good.

 

[youre_a_squib_now]

I love Squid School (and Rogue English Teacher while he made them), but on this particular topic...I don't necessarily disagree but I really do prefer to choose gear that I think goes well together (thank the great zapfish you can determine and use gear seeds to make specific builds). And I know a lot of people just choose gear regardless of ability because it looks good.

It's a necessary evil I think. How necessary is debatable but they clearly had a specific vision when making the gear system and I don't think they're going to change it

 

[youre_a_squib_now]

here's my personal hopes for gear in the next game.


the important stuff:

Sub defense has to go. Defense up > bomb defense > sub defense has been a positive trend because each one does less. This trend needs to continue by making sub defense not exist.

Stealth jump shouldn't be on literally 50% of sendou.ink builds. Having abilities that are good is fine, but nothing should be this necessary. Either the radius you can see jumps from with SJ needs to get nerfed or there needs to be a very weak form of SJ by default (maybe pro or jet squelcher range vision)

Utility subs are a fine thing to exist, and they are good to help diversify gear, but quick super jump, ink res, and special saver are too strong. It doesn't diversify gear if they feel required. I don't think the default values need adjusted, but the amounts with 1-2 subs should be changed so that for the first 3 or so subs of the ability added, the effect increases by around the same amount each time. By the time you have a main of the ability the effect should be unchanged from before.

Add good explanations for what gear does. I still don't know how haunt works and I have almost 1000 hours in the game. Also, the explanations for sub and special power up should change based on what weapon is equipped.


less important stuff that I think would be nice:

Thermal ink should apply to indirect from explo, tri stringer, etc. These are the weapons that would get the most utility out of it and it would be really nice to see thermal ink have a good use case. The duration could be lowered for balance if needed.

Intensify action should increase the duration of squid roll armor. Right now it's pretty much only used for jump rng, and even if it doesn't do a whole lot it would still be a cool change. This could also use the nerf for specifically 1-2 subs of it, so weapons that want IA can still use it but it's not as necessary for other builds.

Tenacity should do more than just passive special charge. I don't know what, but it should do something. Giving everyone QSJ would be really strong balance wise since it would let you jump out and/or let teammates jump in faster, which is usually when you're at a numbers disadvantage. I'd be okay with this but if they added it they'd have to be careful about balance.

Haunt needs to be less bad. I don't think anything should flat-out disable gear abilities, but I don't know what else they could add to it. I also don't think increasing the tracking distance would make a huge difference because the problem is that the ability just doesn't do very much, like tenacity.
Random idea: when you splat a haunt user your ink tank gets capped at 90% until you die. I have no idea if this would be broken or terrible but it's an idea at least.

I personally think RP is fine and doesn't need changes. I don't see what people dislike about it but I play chargers so I'm probably biased.


summary:
-sub defense gets deleted
-stealth jump radius gets nerfed, or you have a weak version by default
-QSJ, ink res, and special saver are worse when 1 or 2 subs are equipped. IA gets the same nerf but less. for the first few subs of each ability, the effect increases by approximately the same amount each time
-gear explanations become useful
-thermal ink works on indirects
-IA makes squid roll/surge armor last longer
-tenacity also gives QSJ (not too much though)
-haunt becomes better, somehow

 

[youre_a_squib_now]

Ability to trade 2 ability chunks for 1 chunk of a different ability.

I also like this idea a lot. It wouldn't take away from the gear taking a while to get but grinding for a specific ability would feel so much less bad.

 

[vitellary]

I personally think RP is fine and doesn't need changes. I don't see what people dislike about it but I play chargers so I'm probably biased.

i can't remember who said this before, or if i'm just making up a quote that no one has actually said before, but in the wise words of someone maybe: "if you want me to play the game less, and you also want you to play the game less, then why are we even playing the game"
it's just really lame to have an ability that reduces the amount of time, and therefore fun, that anyone involved is allowed to have

 

[NeoXVIII]

If I had make a change to the system, I would probably change sub slots to 5 from 3 and have subs give 2 AP instead of 3. This would also total nicely to 60 AP and make ability doubler give 20 AP, same as a regular set.

We immediately run into the problem though that any Sub Defense Up at all kills most combos, so that ability would, and probably does currently tbh, need to be changed.

I see a lot of calls to nerf stealth jump but I dunno. It's the best in its slot because the alternatives are a bit undertuned; object shredder is kinda decent but doesn't feel like it does much sometimes if you're not busy one shotting sprinklers, while drop roller is cursed by tick rate and execution. I have videos of fully doing the roll and still being demolished by an eliter across the gap in brinewater. Drop roller could be buffed by adding more opportunities to use it, like off a reefslider or hell, crab. Or maybe by giving it enough armor to survive with low health from a bomb, shrug.

 

[Grushi]

I think stealth jump being this good is kind of a necessity imo.

I get that it's kind of boring to use pretty much a third of your gear slots for stealth + utilities on basically 90% of builds, and that at a certain level it essentially becomes required if you don't want to be at a disadvantage. But also, stealth jump serves as a kind of safety net to ensure that even if you go for a risky play and fight the enemy but you lose, you still get the chance to quickly go back into the action if your team can hold their ground, so you're not too punished for taking a risk

If you nerf stealth jump, you disproportionately nerf aggressive plays which runs the risk of everyone playing very safely, paint-for-special style, since you can't ensure you can get back to the map quickly enough if you go down. Even just a small radius nerf would be a step in the wrong direction imo

In s1 stealth jump had kind of the opposite problem (it completely hid your marker no matter the distance): you had too much of a safety net, which means that ultra aggressive plays were basically the norm and other playstyles could get overwhelmed really fast. But I think the devs found a good balance with the rework in s2

Also, I don't think drop roller's a good replacement, even if you make the user invincible during the roll or something, there's still a big "a guy is about to jump right here" marker you can see all the way across the map which means a well coordinated team can paint around it, shark in, throw bombs/booyah bomb/tristrike/literally any special at it. I don't think sj's too strong, I think drop roller's inherently weak.


Tl;dr if you nerf stealth jump you indirectly incentivize people to play more passively, do-not-interact s2 vjet style, which is a really boring, and tbh not fun direction for the game

 

[OnePotWonder]

I think stealth jump being this good is kind of a necessity imo.

I get that it's kind of boring to use pretty much a third of your gear slots for stealth + utilities on basically 90% of builds, and that at a certain level it essentially becomes required if you don't want to be at a disadvantage. But also, stealth jump serves as a kind of safety net to ensure that even if you go for a risky play and fight the enemy but you lose, you still get the chance to quickly go back into the action if your team can hold their ground, so you're not too punished for taking a risk

If you nerf stealth jump, you disproportionately nerf aggressive plays which runs the risk of everyone playing very safely, paint-for-special style, since you can't ensure you can get back to the map quickly enough if you go down. Even just a small radius nerf would be a step in the wrong direction imo

In s1 stealth jump had kind of the opposite problem (it completely hid your marker no matter the distance): you had too much of a safety net, which means that ultra aggressive plays were basically the norm and other playstyles could get overwhelmed really fast. But I think the devs found a good balance with the rework in s2

Also, I don't think drop roller's a good replacement, even if you make the user invincible during the roll or something, there's still a big "a guy is about to jump right here" marker you can see all the way across the map which means a well coordinated team can paint around it, shark in, throw bombs/booyah bomb/tristrike/literally any special at it. I don't think sj's too strong, I think drop roller's inherently weak.


Tl;dr if you nerf stealth jump you indirectly incentivize people to play more passively, do-not-interact s2 vjet style, which is a really boring, and tbh not fun direction for the game

Personally, I’d argue to just give super jumps armour on landing, at least if a player is jumping from spawn. I can understand wanting to survive the enemy E-liter when jumping back in, but it shouldn’t require a main gear ability.

 

[youre_a_squib_now]

If I had make a change to the system, I would probably change sub slots to 5 from 3 and have subs give 2 AP instead of 3. This would also total nicely to 60 AP and make ability doubler give 20 AP, same as a regular set.

We immediately run into the problem though that any Sub Defense Up at all kills most combos, so that ability would, and probably does currently tbh, need to be changed.

I see a lot of calls to nerf stealth jump but I dunno. It's the best in its slot because the alternatives are a bit undertuned; object shredder is kinda decent but doesn't feel like it does much sometimes if you're not busy one shotting sprinklers, while drop roller is cursed by tick rate and execution. I have videos of fully doing the roll and still being demolished by an eliter across the gap in brinewater. Drop roller could be buffed by adding more opportunities to use it, like off a reefslider or hell, crab. Or maybe by giving it enough armor to survive with low health from a bomb, shrug.

Armor until the roll finishes would be really nice, that's an amazing suggestion

here's how I would implement it if I was nintendo:
when you are about to land on the ground from a super jump, you get armor equivalent to squid roll or spawn armor. Once the roll is finished, the armor goes away.
Also, the time until you can go into swim form is increased by a few frames.

 

[youre_a_squib_now]

Personally, I’d argue to just give super jumps armour on landing, at least if a player is jumping from spawn. I can understand wanting to survive the enemy E-liter when jumping back in, but it shouldn’t require a main gear ability.

I think this devalues the importance of choosing super jumps wisely. If you jump into a bad situation and die, that's your own fault. I do understand that long range chargers feel kind of unfair for camping super jumps, but I don't think it justifies giving players super jump armor for free.

 

[NeoXVIII]

when you are about to land on the ground from a super jump, you get armor equivalent to squid roll or spawn armor. Once the roll is finished, the armor goes away.
Also, the time until you can go into swim form is increased by a few frames.

I think this would be fine, though 3 has weird quirks with armor where you'll be overkilled by things that on paper shouldn't, but a bit more survivability would be nice in compensation for latency. That and I guess it's fine to get obliterated still by eliters; that's more of a map/positioning/teamplay problem in most cases anyhow. I'm okay with the slight endlag if you get a sick recovery pose.

I don't think all jumps should get armor tbh. Besides leaving stealth jump as the best option still, it would also exacerbate tacticooler's strength by allowing hyper aggressive jumps straight onto the objective, especially if you can still shoot as normal during your jump (winning trades with rollers/splatanas/quick ttk weapons while being armored), which drop roller prevents.

 

[Dessgeega]

I just wish abilities had more impact on the game. Everything feels so marginal and incremental after Side Order. As it is, a skilled player with no gear at all would still decimate a player with "optimized" gear, abilities are definitely a factor but they're not win-or-lose in every single match.

I'd like to see some take on the chip system in the next game, if just because it's one of the only genuinely new mechanics this series has seen in the last decade.

 

[OnePotWonder]

I think this devalues the importance of choosing super jumps wisely. If you jump into a bad situation and die, that's your own fault. I do understand that long range chargers feel kind of unfair for camping super jumps, but I don't think it justifies giving players super jump armor for free.

Honestly, I'm going to be frank, I despise stealth jump. Having 1/6 of my gear constantly taken up by an ability that's mandatory to not get splatted by enemy backlines on landing is not fun. I want to strafe faster, I want better ink efficiency, I want better throwing range for my bombs. I don't want this bland ability that has tangibly no effect on gameplay. I want its ability to let the user survive backline jump campers to be completely irrelevant. That way, its only benefit is stealth, as it should be.

If an ability is being ran on 90% of builds, it's probably a problem. I'd argue so in this case, because the ability is inexcusably boring.

At the very least, Drop Roller should be an equally valid option for surviving campers. I wouldn't be opposed to the landing armor being limited to that ability, though then it'd probably be too powerful.

 

[TheBearProphet]

Would it be game breaking to remove stealth jump but just make it an inherent part of super jumping? It’s a slight nerf to back lines I guess because they will never see the jump spot, but then everyone either gets a gear spot back or gets the benefit of the ability for free.

 

[youre_a_squib_now]

Would it be game breaking to remove stealth jump but just make it an inherent part of super jumping? It’s a slight nerf to back lines I guess because they will never see the jump spot, but then everyone either gets a gear spot back or gets the benefit of the ability for free.

It would definitely be a huge change. My biggest concern for if they do this is that there would only be 2 shoe specific abilities, but I don't know if this is actually a bad thing. Drop roller in its current state would probably stay the same as it currently is or maybe get slightly better, because if someone can't see the jump then drop roller doesn't matter anyway, and if they are close enough to see it, it's the same amount helpful as before. Object shredder would definitely get more popular, which would be kind of sad considering how quickly anything with HP gets shredded already right now.

I think the biggest issue would just be lack of variety, but there are already plenty of non-main-exclusive abilities, so it would probably be fine. I wouldn't be opposed to them doing this change and it probably wouldn't need too many other changes to keep things balanced, but it depends on how far away you can see the jump from.