Splatoon 3 Salt Mines

[OnePotWonder]

I personally think the scale prizes for SR are completely reasonable. People ask "how are you supposed to get all of this?" You're not.

As Gem talks about in this video (not about salmon run) Splatoon just expects you to spend a lot of time playing it. Salmon run is no different. The goal is that no matter how much you play, there's always a reward to work towards. And I do mean no matter how much you play; that's why the gold grizzco badge takes so absurdly long. Even if someone, for some reason, played SR enough to get every single reward in the shop, there would still be the gold badge to go for. And personally, if I put in the effort to get 333 gold scales, I'd rather have multiple banner options to choose from.

tldr: you're not supposed to "100%" Splatoon. Why would they add fewer rewards if it means players would run out of things to do?

They are near-reasonable. Yes, it's fair to have the three golden banners costing 333 gold scales each for the express purpose of being practically unachievable. The problem is that you're only getting a single golden scale for every 10 king salmonids you fight, on average. The problem is that you can defeat a king salmonid in fifty seconds and get 13 bronze scales. The problem is that it doesn't feel like you're actually making any progress toward the goal while grinding for it.

Even if you manage to get absurdly lucky with a 100% gold scale drop rate, it takes a minimum of 26 king salmonid takedowns to get one of the golden grizzco badges. Yes, the rewards should be hard to get, but Nintendo has made it ridiculous.
Nowhere near as many people would be complaining if king salmonids dropped a maximum of 20 scales, and the drop chance of higher quality scales was doubled for king salmonid takedowns. Instead of the 3333 king salmonids it would take to get a gold badge currently, it would only take around 2000. Which sounds more reasonable?

 

[youre_a_squib_now]

Instead of the 3333 king salmonids it would take to get a gold badge currently, it would only take around 2000. Which sounds more reasonable?

It's only a 60% difference, which might sound like a lot but really it doesn't really matter, considering almost no one would get to either of those numbers anyway. That difference might be nice for the people who do play that much, but that's not really the problem.
(also I'm going to assume you are talking about the banners and not the badges because this wouldn't make sense for badges)

The problem is that it doesn't feel like you're actually making any progress toward the goal while grinding for it.

This is the problem. Although the goal being slightly closer would be nice, the real issue is that it doesn't feel like you're making any progress at all. I'm no psychology major but here's my take on what could help with this.

I don't think just flatly increasing the scale count and/or golden scale rate would help, because it introduces a new issue. Right now, getting a golden scale is one of the most exciting things in Salmon Run. That adrenaline rush when you see a gold scale is fun and keeps the grind from getting stale. Making gold scales more common would take this away.

The thing that makes people upset is when they don't get a gold scale. So instead of making that occur less often, maybe we can make it feel less bad. Right now, the number of scales is determined by how well you did against the king salmonid, but the type of scales is random. Yes, gold scales are more common at higher ranks or whatever they're called, but that isn't affected by the match you just played. Doing better won't get you better chances. So even though you are more likely to get golden scales when you do better, because you get more scales, it doesn't feel that way a lot of the time because each scale was chosen randomly. No, it's not logical, but our brains aren't logical sometimes.

So, what if doing better did increase your chances of getting good scales? If the first scale (or first few scales) have the same rates as currently, but each subsequent scale has a slightly higher chance of being silver or gold, I think it would feel much more fair. For one, it is just more golden scales. As I said before, the exact amount of time it takes to get the banner isn't the most relevant, but taking a slightly less long wouldn't be a bad thing, as long as golden scales still feel rare and special. The more important effect is that now the chance of getting a golden scale feels more directly tied to how well you performed, so RNG isn't the only thing you can blame for not getting a scale. A minigame where you can win around a fifth of the time is much more satisfying than one where you get the prize 20% of the time regardless of how well you did, because when you fail, you can focus on learning from your mistakes to have a better chance the next time, and when you succeed, it can be directly tied to the work you put in. This is the same thing. Again, yes you're more likely to get more scales when you do well, but it doesn't feel that way right now. And I think with this change, it would.

 

[briank913]

I don't think anyone is expecting to 100% Splatoon. The consecutive Series wins badge cements that imo. But as for SR, the question then becomes at what point does the quest for the 333 banner become obsolete or a waste? The drop rate of gold scale is so infinitesimal that you can do a 999 run and never get one. At that point, wouldn't it be discouraging that it's luck more than skill and the time put in to work on the craft? Should people be left at the mercy of RNG to determine their rewards? If somebody got everything that a Silver scale can buy, what's the point of getting more silvers?

This game is basically like gambling, you play it to hopefully win something worthwhile that you actually want. The teammates you get are a gamble. The reward you get for taking down the Triumvirate is a gamble. The only certainty is that they want you to play this and only this.

 

[OnePotWonder]

How about upscaling? You could add a trading system where 10 bronze scales can be traded in for a silver, and 10 silver scales can be traded in for a gold. It doesn't remove the high of getting a gold scale randomly, but it makes it so every scale counts toward progress.

 

[Cephalobro]

The scale trading should definitely be a feature. Just like how getting every weapon from Ammo Knights allows you to trade your Sheldon Licenses for Shell-Out Tokens, we should be able to trade lower-valued scales for higher-valued ones, it just makes sense. And yes, the most balanced way to do this is 10 lower-valued scales for 1 higher-valued scale. This reduces enough of the RNG in terms of getting Golden Scales to a more balanced point by making at least some Golden Scales technically guaranteed.

 

[briank913]

How about upscaling? You could add a trading system where 10 bronze scales can be traded in for a silver, and 10 silver scales can be traded in for a gold. It doesn't remove the high of getting a gold scale randomly, but it makes it so every scale counts toward progress.

See the problem with that is that it'll make you stop playing when you get what you want: remember the devs just want you to keep playing no matter what.

 

[Cephalobro]

See the problem with that is that it'll make you stop playing when you get what you want: remember the devs just want you to keep playing no matter what.

Well, they gotta accept the truth that most players will leave Splatoon 3 eventually, it happens with every multiplayer game that's not on PC eventually.

 

[briank913]

Well, they gotta accept the truth that most players will leave Splatoon 3 eventually, it happens with every multiplayer game that's not on PC eventually.

Exactly. See what OnePotWonder suggested about exchanging scales makes 100% sense that basically takes RNG out of the equation while maintaining and maximizing satisfaction for achieving something. But how this game is made is meant to make you keep playing it, until you say no more. 3 I think is the one where devs get complacent while making players pissed.

 

[briank913]

Exactly. See what OnePotWonder suggested about exchanging scales makes 100% sense that basically takes RNG out of the equation while maintaining and maximizing satisfaction for achieving something. Might as well make the inevitable a good memory right? Nope. But how this game is made is meant to make you keep playing it, until you say no more. 3 I think is the one where devs get complacent while making players pissed.

 

[youre_a_squib_now]

Exactly. See what OnePotWonder suggested about exchanging scales makes 100% sense that basically takes RNG out of the equation while maintaining and maximizing satisfaction for achieving something. But how this game is made is meant to make you keep playing it, until you say no more. 3 I think is the one where devs get complacent while making players pissed.

There is one problem with the scale exchange thing, which is that players who want a thing requiring gold scales might exchange all their lower level scales and would not be able to buy things that required those scales. I know I would do this.

I really like the way one of my mobile games does it. There are 3 tiers of rewards you can get from dungeons, very similar to scales. In a shop near the dungeon, you can "buy" 10 lower ones with a higher one, and you can "buy" a higher one with 10 lower ones, but it has a "stock" of only 1 per day for each. This way, you can exchange them but only in a limited way, so you're encouraged to use the ones you have because if you exchange them it's hard to exchange them back. I think something like this could work really well for salmon run.

 

[Cephalobro]

There is one problem with the scale exchange thing, which is that players who want a thing requiring gold scales might exchange all their lower level scales and would not be able to buy things that required those scales. I know I would do this.

I really like the way one of my mobile games does it. There are 3 tiers of rewards you can get from dungeons, very similar to scales. In a shop near the dungeon, you can "buy" 10 lower ones with a higher one, and you can "buy" a higher one with 10 lower ones, but it has a "stock" of only 1 per day for each. This way, you can exchange them but only in a limited way, so you're encouraged to use the ones you have because if you exchange them it's hard to exchange them back. I think something like this could work really well for salmon run.

There's an even better way, to make it so there's only a limited number of times you could trade scales per day. But you can trade as many of the lower scales with the equivalent number of higher ones. For example, trading 50 Silver Scales for 5 Golden Scales. This still puts a limit to players trading the scales in the day while also letting them speed up the process by a noticeable amount if they want, then after using up the times of trading, they would have to fight King Salmonids to get more higher-tiered scales, which would inevitably also solve the spending all of the lower scale problem too as well naturally.

Plus something in Salmon Run that actually makes players think about their decision while in-game is always a good thing.

 

[youre_a_squib_now]

There's an even better way, to make it so there's only a limited number of times you could trade scales per day. But you can trade as many of the lower scales with the equivalent number of higher ones. For example, trading 50 Silver Scales for 5 Golden Scales. This still puts a limit to players trading the scales in the day while also letting them speed up the process by a noticeable amount if they want, then after using up the times of trading, they would have to fight King Salmonids to get more higher-tiered scales, which would inevitably also solve the spending all of the lower scale problem too as well naturally.

Plus something in Salmon Run that actually makes players think about their decision while in-game is always a good thing.

This just seems like an unnecessary obstacle that wouldn't accomplish anything except annoy people. It doesn't limit the amount of scales but it limits the amount of times you can trade them? what purpose does that serve?

 

[OnePotWonder]

This just seems like an unnecessary obstacle that wouldn't accomplish anything except annoy people. It doesn't limit the amount of scales but it limits the amount of times you can trade them? what purpose does that serve?

The exact purpose it seems you so desire. Stretching out content. Are you never pleased?

I have been absent from the debate for a while, but I'm going to make one thing very predominantly clear: I don't give a flying fish about players who grind salmon run reaching the point where they have everything unlocked. It should be possible. The game shouldn't have to keep super invested players hooked by constantly dangling a carrot in front of them. Even if it has to, there's already more than enough content. We have three gold banners. That's 999 golden scales alone.

At this point, I'm not going to hear you out anymore. King salmonids should drop as many as 25 scales, and defeating one should double the chance of rarer scale drops. And they should add an unlimited scale trading system, in both directions.
I, as a normal player who has a life outside of Salmon Run, have the time to challenge at most one king salmonid per rotation. I can't even get the damn Juice Parka. So many people have complained about the unattainability of scale rewards, whatever justification you have for not making them easier to obtain does not stack up. Period.

Nobody will ever complain about unlocking everything being too easy unless it legitimately is, and it will never be; not even if they make king salmonids drop ten times as many scales.

My part in this debate is over.

 

[Cephalobro]

This just seems like an unnecessary obstacle that wouldn't accomplish anything except annoy people. It doesn't limit the amount of scales but it limits the amount of times you can trade them? what purpose does that serve?

So limiting 1 scale per trade per day would get annoying to players. The whole point of scale trading in the first place is to speed up the progress of getting rarer scales to get the rarer items that little bit faster. It's not going to hurt the game that much to let players actually feel like they are making progress faster. Otherwise, that would mean Big Run itself is hurting the game due to doubling the scale yield, which is laughably false to say because players love Big Run for that exact same reason.

Also, I could argue the same thing about the 1 scale limit being an unnecessary obstacle that would annoy players. The "one item" limit works in a mobile game because you're expected to pay real money if you want faster progress. But Splatoon 3 isn't a mobile game and you really can't use real money for faster progress in it either.

And besides, players will still have to play a lot more just to get the amount of scales necessary to trade for the desired amount with my idea, but it would be far less annoying.

TLDR: It serves the same purpose, but it is much less annoying than the 1 scale limit per day method.

 

[Arigato!]

I know this is kinda off topic given the current situation, but I also hate when bombs roll down slopes so they explode and kill you. And also people who don't destroy bubblers and stand right inside it, just begging for the decav or roller to annihilate them on their way down.