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Splatoon Problems

Zombie Aladdin

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I've heard elsewhere that Japanese players are more focused on sheer skill whereas western players are more likely to be less skilled but compensate through strategy and analysis. There's nothing I've seen that refutes that but not that much that supports it either, though it would reflect differences in competitive Pokémon battling between the two sides as well.

Performances against themselves are pretty easy to determine via Splatfests, where the Americas, Europe and Oceania, and Japan and the rest of Asia are bunched up together and duel against each other. Strategic picking of teams aside, I don't know much about Europe and Oceania, but from what I've seen, in an all-American match, the most frequent outcome is that one side will dominate the other, and in an all-Asian match, they tend to be closer but still decisive.

Performances between all-western teams and all-Japanese teams, on the other hand, I'm not really sure about. The closest we can get to that are Squad Battles, but those function differently than the random matches that form the meat of the game. In the matches I've seen where, out of chance, one team has all players with kana names and the other team has none, however, it's a total toss-up. Experience with the game and knowledge of its mechanics are by far the biggest factors in which team will emerge victorious, but otherwise, American strategy and Japanese aim are about equal with each other.
 

stitchedwithlove

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I'd say 90% of my lobbies are Japanese players, presumably because Australia (which is where I'm from) and Japan are close in regards to time zones. Because I frequently play with Japanese players I'm well acquainted to what they're like in terms of skill and strategy. Once a Splatfest for Europe/Oceania comes around, it's very clear to see the different skill levels. It's quite safe to say that Europe/Oceania are very different tactics-wise compared to Japan - they're not as aggressive, for example.

Players pick up different tactics and strategies as they're exposed to other play styles. Westerners frequently playing with other Westerners will play according to their play style and will maintain that style, and the Japanese vice versa. It's just a matter of fighting fire with fire and playing using their play style.
 

warghoul

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Sep 30, 2015
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I would like to see voice chat for the next splatoon if they make it. Sure I understand why a lot of people do not like voice but you can just not use it if you dont want to. The option to have it and not use it is better than no option at all.
 

Elecmaw

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-remove the rotation system entirely and use the mk stage selection screen instead
-remove the gashapon gear-rolling bs with spyke aswell and replace it with something slightly more reasonable
-give more voice chat commands, one that says "warning" would be immensely helpful
-have the point award system in ranked reward/punish players individually instead of the team as a whole (this is personally my biggest peeve i have with this game)
-make it that squads still lose and gain points in S ranks
-if someone loses 5 times in a row substract 2x as many as points for every next loss untill the next win/derank
-make interface less obtrusive, lots of small things(icon indicating someone got shot/tracking/ink around screen when taking damage/infotext taking up upper half of screen/ink with explosions in particular) clutter the screen
-camera in general needs a lot more work, add a seperate button that functions like y but doesn't reset the vertical axis
-allow players to cancel sj
-patch rank scumming
 

Nero86

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I think splatoon is a big mix of what I see as trending on japanese culture today: idols, tentacles, wet stuff, tokyo-ish references, chibis and clothes.
Judd to me is a mascot, like that maneki neko stuffs, they do like that. Also I like that too, I'm not japanese but I do enjoy those references.

Talking back about splatoon problems, for me some things that would improve my experience:
  • A cancel button to leave a lobby whenever you want
  • Some ban/report service, I've been seeing some ridiculous lag switching on this game. It's not frequent, but it happens.
  • Being able to change equips while waiting in a random lobby like squad. But the timer to limit and not disturb other players.
 

DekuKitty

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Some ban/report service, I've been seeing some ridiculous lag switching on this game. It's not frequent, but it happens.
I like the other ideas, but not this. Do you even know how many salty kids would use this to get others banned? Maybe a block feature instead?
 

Ashmia

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-remove the rotation system entirely and use the mk stage selection screen instead
What's going to stop snipers from always choosing Moray Towers? Or blasters choosing Blackbelly Skatepark. The rotation system forces players to adapt to the stage and explore other weapon options. However, I do agree the system needs a slight change. Stages should either rotate more frequently, or have more stages in rotation.
-remove the gashapon gear-rolling bs with spyke aswell and replace it with something slightly more reasonable
Maybe not remove it, but rather, make it so you can reroll individual slots.
-give more voice chat commands, one that says "warning" would be immensely helpful
Agreed. If voice chat is not going to happen, then more commands is necessary.
-have the point award system in ranked reward/punish players individually instead of the team as a whole (this is personally my biggest peeve i have with this game)
I can get behind this, but the question is, how would a player be rewarded/punished? If they died a lot, but carried the rainmaker or tower the most, would that be punished or rewarded, for example?
-make it that squads still lose and gain points in S ranks
If that were the case, then less S players would be in squad, which could be good for those who are under S and are still losing/gaining points (like me). However, it means those who are in the S ranks wouldn't squad as much for fear of losing their rank. It won't be as much fun. And it's not like S ranks gain points in squad either.
-if someone loses 5 times in a row substract 2x as many as points for every next loss untill the next win/derank
That would be terrible. It's bad enough to lose all the hard earned (in most cases) points to get to the next rank. Subtracting points is already a bummer, but subtracting twice as much just for losing is hammering the nail in the coffin. Everyone has gone through a losing streak at some point, why bum them out more by punishing their rank points?
-make interface less obtrusive, lots of small things(icon indicating someone got shot/tracking/ink around screen when taking damage/infotext taking up upper half of screen/ink with explosions in particular) clutter the screen
The ink around the screen when taking damage is a bit obtrusive, but it's how people know they've been damaged and how close they are to getting splatted. I do agree that the text needs a smaller font, though.
-camera in general needs a lot more work, add a seperate button that functions like y but doesn't reset the vertical axis
I'm not sure if you're talking about gyro or analog controls, so I'll refrain from commenting.
-allow players to cancel sj
Superjumping is situational and if someone keeps dying from that, then running stealth jump, or simply swimming to where you need to go, and stacking some swim speed, would be necessary.
-patch rank scumming
Agreed.
 

MasterSaruwatari

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Well...if I can add my two cents about the game. I feel for every good thing Splatoon does...it does it very well, but everything bad they do it poorly. I mean the matchmaking is a joke and the servers are even more of a joke. The game wins in artstyle and game modes, but fails at getting simple features like matchmaking and lack of offline 4v4 a.k.a lan support are embarrassing. Nintendo, in my opinion, is so slow to gasp complex of video games sometimes it's sad.
 

Elecmaw

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What's going to stop snipers from always choosing Moray Towers? Or blasters choosing Blackbelly Skatepark. The rotation system forces players to adapt to the stage and explore other weapon options. However, I do agree the system needs a slight change. Stages should either rotate more frequently, or have more stages in rotation.
It's not so much a problem of skill, but more that fighting on two maps on a single session gets boring. Having to wait to change to different maps every four hours gets tedious.
There's also the problem chargers can just wait for Moray to get in rotation, and then play it for 4 hours to rank up. They'll be amazing at that map and meh/bad at every single other map, when ideally players should be overall good at most maps in the selection.

I can get behind this, but the question is, how would a player be rewarded/punished? If they died a lot, but carried the rainmaker or tower the most, would that be punished or rewarded, for example?
This is a bit more complex and i don't think there's a perfect solution to it. The easiest would be to look at k/d ratio's, but that's not accurate enough. It should also look which people claimed/stopped the objective at critical moments, who is nearby the objective and who's currently still alive. It's a bit complicated, though.


That would be terrible. It's bad enough to lose all the hard earned (in most cases) points to get to the next rank. Subtracting points is already a bummer, but subtracting twice as much just for losing is hammering the nail in the coffin. Everyone has gone through a losing streak at some point, why bum them out more by punishing their rank points?
I'll admit it's a bit extreme, but once you start losing and losing in a single rank it becomes more clear that you aren't ready for that rank yet. It's too discouraging, i'll agree with you on that.

Maybe it'd be better to give the player a gentle reminder to take a break if several losses occur in a row?

I'm not sure if you're talking about gyro or analog controls, so I'll refrain from commenting.
None of the controls, they are fine. I'm talking about the camera itself, it tends to get stuck or zoom in excessively around narrow corners. It should also give the user some more control over it.
 

MasterSaruwatari

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It's impossbile ot rank up. I have had so many Dcs...I lost like 40 rank points today due to DCs...two years and Nintendo hasn't patch that.
 

Zombie Aladdin

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I'll admit it's a bit extreme, but once you start losing and losing in a single rank it becomes more clear that you aren't ready for that rank yet. It's too discouraging, i'll agree with you on that.

Maybe it'd be better to give the player a gentle reminder to take a break if several losses occur in a row?
A game that focuses on punishment over reward is inherently unsustainable, as it means few players will be truly advancing while many more players will be constantly getting demoted. People play video games to feel like winners, and most of Splatoon is reward-based: You gain points even if you lose, you gain Super Sea Snails even if you lose, dying in the single-player mode is a slap on the wrist, and the game encourages you to try new things and take risks. When a game repeatedly punishes a person, the chances of them stoppling playing increase; it will only intensify if the game starts punishing them MORE.

Most games with a strong and robust online multiplayer mode are either reward-over-punishment, like World of Warcraft; use a zero-sum system, like the Street Fighter series; or are completely unranked, like the Smash Bros. series.
 

Nero86

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I normally block lag switchers using Wii U Friend List's native features. It works out good!
 

Karonax

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This game needs matches to be hosted on servers and not P2P. The way it is now is similar to Mario Kart, asynchronous communication, where the game 'checks in' with all the other players rapidly, rather than a constant accurate connection. This causes lag kills, and why chargers are basically unstoppable with lag.

However, constant connections aren't the answer either with P2P, this is evident in Smash, where the game is slowed to the player with the highest latency's speed, and causes awful input lag.

On a server proper, the laggy players would experience poor response times and their game would be delayed as to what is accurately happening on the server. In this circumstance the laggy players can't perform as well, and it's their responsibility to improve their connection. Snipers are usually a very high skill cap weapon when the server is hosting the game in real-time and your aim has to be precise.

However, because we're on asynchronous P2P right now, having lag means you have a major advantage due to experiencing the game through your Wii U's lag. Players with lag will see other players moving inaccurately/slowly/exposed, which they can kill far easier, and then when the game runs the sync they get those kills. It's a backwards situation where having a good connection can actually work against you.

This is why the meta is packed with chargers, because all they have to do is hit you on their screen, no matter where you are on your own Wii U, when the game syncs again, you die. Behind walls, out of nowhere, absurd accuracy. It's all side effects of the asynchronous communication and unfortunately not something that can be fixed while Nintendo insists on using P2P.

The benefits of using asynchronous communication is that a much lower internet speed is required to play smoothly, and the game doesn't stutter very often, but it's at the cost of accurate gameplay unfortunately and means the meta gets bogged down.

That's my problem with Splatoon. Not that it deters me from playing, I love the hell out of this game. But everytime I die to a laggy player I can't help but shake my head.
 

jsilva

Inkling Cadet
Joined
Oct 30, 2015
Messages
262
-give more voice chat commands, one that says "warning" would be immensely helpful
Definitely. I don't want in-game chat but we need more than what we've got. I usually use 'haunt' partially because of this. It's a warning to my team in addition to making it easier to splat them.

-have the point award system in ranked reward/punish players individually instead of the team as a whole
I am quite content being assessed as team. It's annoying sometimes but all of the factors which lead to a win/loss can't even remotely be evaluated by the resources available on a Wii U. Not to mention it's good to be willing to be a team player, which inherently means accepting your teammates' failures :)

-if someone loses 5 times in a row substract 2x as many as points for every next loss untill the next win/derank
...
I'll admit it's a bit extreme, but once you start losing and losing in a single rank it becomes more clear that you aren't ready for that rank yet. It's too discouraging, i'll agree with you on that.
I see that as a problem, because it must assume we always lose repeated games because of ourselves. That's the better attitude to take for sure but it's not necessarily accurate. As has been discussed in other threads, I think long losing streaks are usually the result of either severe errors in matchmaking or a matchmaking agenda.

If I started losing more points just because the matchmaking system sucks I would have given up on Splatoon long ago. I nearly gave up on it already! Zombie Aladdin is totally right about reward vs. punishment, and I think ranked mode is already on the edge.
 

Elecmaw

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A game that focuses on punishment over reward is inherently unsustainable, as it means few players will be truly advancing while many more players will be constantly getting demoted. People play video games to feel like winners, and most of Splatoon is reward-based: You gain points even if you lose, you gain Super Sea Snails even if you lose, dying in the single-player mode is a slap on the wrist, and the game encourages you to try new things and take risks. When a game repeatedly punishes a person, the chances of them stoppling playing increase; it will only intensify if the game starts punishing them MORE.

Most games with a strong and robust online multiplayer mode are either reward-over-punishment, like World of Warcraft; use a zero-sum system, like the Street Fighter series; or are completely unranked, like the Smash Bros. series.
ZA and jsilva, you guys make a good point.

There's one big unfortunate exception to that reward-based system, and that's the Ranked games.
Ranked game modes are unique and not found in regular battles, giving them more incentive beyond to just playing them for actually changing your rank. On top of that, ranked games award a lot more money/exp than regular battles, and even taking in mind the occassional loss if you manage to balance your rank you'll still get more money from it than from regular battles over time.
But the ranked battles are definitely not an everybody wins situation as you'll gain no exp/money and drop in rank if you lose, you can get losing streaks where the only thing that really happened in the time you played is that you dropped rank leaving players frustrated and salty.

I'm guessing that quite a few players had no intention of upping their rank level but choose to play Ranked anyway just because they don't like turf war/want extra cash/unlock slots.Then they get frustrated when they hit a losing streak and can't win and see their rank plummet, when in reality all they wanted was a few more extra credits for their efforts. It's a bit annoying that those game modes aren't available unless you are willing to put your rank at risk, or at the very least have ranked give something for the losing team.

And no worry, i'm already convinced the losing streak multiplier idea isn't a good idea.

I see that as a problem, because it must assume we always lose repeated games because of ourselves. That's the better attitude to take for sure but it's not necessarily accurate. As has been discussed in other threads, I think long losing streaks are usually the result of either severe errors in matchmaking or a matchmaking agenda.

If I started losing more points just because the matchmaking system sucks I would have given up on Splatoon long ago. I nearly gave up on it already! Zombie Aladdin is totally right about reward vs. punishment, and I think ranked mode is already on the edge.
There are certainly losing streaks unrelated to a lack of preformance (repeated d/c's, teammates on losing streaks), but those shouldn't last too long. If i hit 10 losses in a row without d/c's, that's a good sign i'm doing something wrong.

And believe me, i'm well aware the matchmaking needs a lot more work, in both standard and ranked modes. If i lose i want it to be partially be my fault aswell, i don't want to win with a 0-6 K/D ratio, nor should i win by constantly scoring doubles/triples against the enemy team and the moment i get shot by Inkzooka the enemy team goes for the quad and takes complete control over the map. Nothing is more frustrating knowing exactly how to deal with a situation, but you end up losing anyway because the rest of the team doesn't.
 

Zombie Aladdin

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This game needs matches to be hosted on servers and not P2P. The way it is now is similar to Mario Kart, asynchronous communication, where the game 'checks in' with all the other players rapidly, rather than a constant accurate connection. This causes lag kills, and why chargers are basically unstoppable with lag.

However, constant connections aren't the answer either with P2P, this is evident in Smash, where the game is slowed to the player with the highest latency's speed, and causes awful input lag.

On a server proper, the laggy players would experience poor response times and their game would be delayed as to what is accurately happening on the server. In this circumstance the laggy players can't perform as well, and it's their responsibility to improve their connection. Snipers are usually a very high skill cap weapon when the server is hosting the game in real-time and your aim has to be precise.

However, because we're on asynchronous P2P right now, having lag means you have a major advantage due to experiencing the game through your Wii U's lag. Players with lag will see other players moving inaccurately/slowly/exposed, which they can kill far easier, and then when the game runs the sync they get those kills. It's a backwards situation where having a good connection can actually work against you.

This is why the meta is packed with chargers, because all they have to do is hit you on their screen, no matter where you are on your own Wii U, when the game syncs again, you die. Behind walls, out of nowhere, absurd accuracy. It's all side effects of the asynchronous communication and unfortunately not something that can be fixed while Nintendo insists on using P2P.

The benefits of using asynchronous communication is that a much lower internet speed is required to play smoothly, and the game doesn't stutter very often, but it's at the cost of accurate gameplay unfortunately and means the meta gets bogged down.

That's my problem with Splatoon. Not that it deters me from playing, I love the hell out of this game. But everytime I die to a laggy player I can't help but shake my head.
The thing is that Nintendo is and has always been a company that runs on populism. Whenever someone at Nintendo has to choose between pleasing a large amount of passingly-interested people or pleasig a smaller amount of more dedicated people, they'll always pick the former. One of Nintendo's core design philosophies is to have their barriers of entry as low as possible. Based on what you say about server-based online play ans P2P-based online play, P2P allows more people to play at all, and hence that is their reason for it, and probably their sole reason for it.

If someone is laggy, they might not be able to help their situation, as ISPs in the United States are allowed to choke your Internet speed whenever they want, either because you've used too much of an unlimited plan or because they want to dedicate more of their power to something else. There's legislation underway to require ISPs to either advertise minimum data speeds instead of maximum or to prohibit this sort of throttling. I hope it passes, because I live in a household affected by such a thing. You see, I have a fiber optic connection with an unlimited plan. Problem is that there is someone in my household who has five mobile devices and is always using at least two of them at a time, and at least one thing will be streaming 24/7 (literally--she does not turn it off, ever, and it became her white noise to the point that she gets cranky and irritable if she's at home and 3 minutes go by without it working). She is eating up most of our data, and communicating with her is impossible because she's narcissistic and refuses to understand anything besides what she already believes, and it only means she'll try to hide it. (There are a mountain of other bad habits she has, like a total disregard for food safety and constantly trying to use our new electronics, but this is the one that affects Splatoon: The evening is when our Internet becomes the least stable because that's primetime, the time she'll have the most devices on at once.)

ZA and jsilva, you guys make a good point.

There's one big unfortunate exception to that reward-based system, and that's the Ranked games.
Ranked game modes are unique and not found in regular battles, giving them more incentive beyond to just playing them for actually changing your rank. On top of that, ranked games award a lot more money/exp than regular battles, and even taking in mind the occassional loss if you manage to balance your rank you'll still get more money from it than from regular battles over time.
But the ranked battles are definitely not an everybody wins situation as you'll gain no exp/money and drop in rank if you lose, you can get losing streaks where the only thing that really happened in the time you played is that you dropped rank leaving players frustrated and salty.

I'm guessing that quite a few players had no intention of upping their rank level but choose to play Ranked anyway just because they don't like turf war/want extra cash/unlock slots.Then they get frustrated when they hit a losing streak and can't win and see their rank plummet, when in reality all they wanted was a few more extra credits for their efforts. It's a bit annoying that those game modes aren't available unless you are willing to put your rank at risk, or at the very least have ranked give something for the losing team.

And no worry, i'm already convinced the losing streak multiplier idea isn't a good idea.



There are certainly losing streaks unrelated to a lack of preformance (repeated d/c's, teammates on losing streaks), but those shouldn't last too long. If i hit 10 losses in a row without d/c's, that's a good sign i'm doing something wrong.

And believe me, i'm well aware the matchmaking needs a lot more work, in both standard and ranked modes. If i lose i want it to be partially be my fault aswell, i don't want to win with a 0-6 K/D ratio, nor should i win by constantly scoring doubles/triples against the enemy team and the moment i get shot by Inkzooka the enemy team goes for the quad and takes complete control over the map. Nothing is more frustrating knowing exactly how to deal with a situation, but you end up losing anyway because the rest of the team doesn't.
INdeed, I had once fallen from B to B- due to a series of disconnects during the evening. It's then that I learned not to play Ranked in the evening.

I would definitely appreciate having Splat Zones, Tower Control, and Rainmaker in unranked though. They're even more teamwork-dependent than Turf War, so it'd be nice to play those without worrying that your rank will go down. It'd make for good practice too. As it stands, currently, it's a trial by fire. Beginners will be paired up with other beginners though, but then everyone's fumbling together.

As for winning with a 0-6 K/D record, if I inked a lot, I wouldn't mind. Splats are not the only thing that matters. Heck, in no mode is it the one thing that matters. It helps, but if I was playing Turf War and I inked, say, 1200p on my own without splatting anyone, I consider that a good game.
 

jsilva

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Joined
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Messages
262
There are certainly losing streaks unrelated to a lack of preformance (repeated d/c's, teammates on losing streaks), but those shouldn't last too long. If i hit 10 losses in a row without d/c's, that's a good sign i'm doing something wrong.
I'd agree that we should always evaluate our own performance during losing streaks. What else can we do anyway?

But I became suspicious of what's going on with losing and easy winning streaks months ago and I've become more and more convinced they are influenced by Splatoon's matchmaking. One of the most convincing experiences was when I played on my 5-year old son's account because he was sad he kept on losing (he was at about A- 30). I played for him because I felt bad. What happened? I continued his losing streak down to B+ 40-something! Then like a switched was flipped, I won pretty much every game back to the mid A-'s. I have gotten two accounts up to S in a relatively short time and I'm pretty sure I'm not generally outplayed in B+ games :) I can't say I know why this happens, but I wish the Splatoon developers would put an end to it. Ranked battles would be so much more enjoyable if there were more balanced matchups without ridiculous losing or winning streaks.
 

Karonax

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Whenever someone at Nintendo has to choose between pleasing a large amount of passingly-interested people or pleasig a smaller amount of more dedicated people, they'll always pick the former.
Yeah, unfortunately the lowest common denominator will always prevail haha. We'll just have to rely on the dev team's sense of balance to handle the bigger issues.
 

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