Squad Composition Meta

[flc]

That could change when different weapons come into play. The inkbrush seems much more geared toward tossing ink than laying it down, which may make a pretty big difference. Who knows what other types we haven't seen yet?

yeah, this is definitely true. and on top of that, it moves super fast and has a really good ink throwing pattern to cut off flanking. still, its short range might be a problem.

some of the weapons from the direct are pretty nuts, too. that long range sniper and the rapid-fire smg both look extremely strong.

incidentally, I do agree with the people saying the charger is being slept on. it doesn't have as much general utility as the shooter weapons but it's a completely different style of play that can be tricky to deal with if you're good enough with it. the fact that you can basically have a permanent escape route (as long as your team doesn't let you get flanked) and lock down an area and support your team all while standing on a crate or something is pretty great. looking forward to seeing people get good with it.

 

[FunkyLobster]

incidentally, I do agree with the people saying the charger is being slept on. it doesn't have as much general utility as the shooter weapons but it's a completely different style of play that can be tricky to deal with if you're good enough with it. the fact that you can basically have a permanent escape route (as long as your team doesn't let you get flanked) and lock down an area and support your team all while standing on a crate or something is pretty great. looking forward to seeing people get good with it.

i don't so much think that it's being slept on as much so that it's too niche

it's only really effective for locking down an area when you have open sightlines of that area, which is going to be very map dependent. shooters and rollers are just going to be consistently effective in their roles, which chargers you might want to bring it out on some maps and ignore for others. even on the maps where it's effective, you might be better off using the other weapons anyway because of your team composition or the enemy's.

i don't really think it's a bad weapon, just one that isn't adaptive, which is why it'll probably ignored. in a 4v4 game you have to be as versatile as possible, because if you're ineffective outside your niche, you're turning it into a 3v4 outside your niche

 

[Whisp3r]

I think in a best of 3 or 5 the charger could be useful as a mix up to surprise the opponent and on certain maps or game modes. It could definitely be good on tower control and on maps with plenty of high ground and open space.

 

[flc]

i don't so much think that it's being slept on as much so that it's too niche

it's only really effective for locking down an area when you have open sightlines of that area, which is going to be very map dependent. shooters and rollers are just going to be consistently effective in their roles, which chargers you might want to bring it out on some maps and ignore for others. even on the maps where it's effective, you might be better off using the other weapons anyway because of your team composition or the enemy's.

i don't really think it's a bad weapon, just one that isn't adaptive, which is why it'll probably ignored. in a 4v4 game you have to be as versatile as possible, because if you're ineffective outside your niche, you're turning it into a 3v4 outside your niche

while you're right to say that versatility is important for 4v4 (hence my original point about rollers not being that good), the one thing that chargers can do that other classes can't is turn fights instantly into 4v3s. if you can get yourself to a decent position early in a mid fight (if such things even happen, might be that you just 2v2 over mid and have a couple roamers around the place), and especially on the defensive, chargers are the first weapons that can engage and will almost always have the advantage in the right situation. if you can work around the 3v4 and get into a good position you can potentially lock down an entire sector of the map.

I guess the difference between it and the roller is that the roller's niche is much narrower and gives a much smaller advantage than the charger's respective niche and advantage. and, of course, secondaries might just be better than chargers at everything they do well (especially the one-shot grenade lol)

 

[FunkyLobster]

I think in a best of 3 or 5 the charger could be useful as a mix up to surprise the opponent and on certain maps or game modes. It could definitely be good on tower control and on maps with plenty of high ground and open space.

yes, it will be good on those modes, but will it be the best? if so, that's kind of problematic, and if not, there's still not much reason to bring it out. and what other modes will it be on?

if you want to use a charger, your team will really have to compensate for you. that's NOT a problem; it's just you have more versatile things to choose from that won't be a disadvantage to your team

 

[FunkyLobster]

while you're right to say that versatility is important for 4v4 (hence my original point about rollers not being that good), the one thing that chargers can do that other classes can't is turn fights instantly into 4v3s. if you can get yourself to a decent position early in a mid fight (if such things even happen, might be that you just 2v2 over mid and have a couple roamers around the place), and especially on the defensive, chargers are the first weapons that can engage and will almost always have the advantage in the right situation. if you can work around the 3v4 and get into a good position you can potentially lock down an entire sector of the map.

I guess the difference between it and the roller is that the roller's niche is much narrower and gives a much smaller advantage than the charger's respective niche and advantage. and, of course, secondaries might just be better than chargers at everything they do well (especially the one-shot grenade lol)

that's actually a really good point in favor of the chargers, it's just that it's the same with the sniper in tf2, but you only see him brought out as an offclass in 6v6, and that's because he's a niche choice. he's very effective within that niche, but it's niche none the less, so you're going to want to roll with another class when the options given to you are vague. for example, the sniper and spy are good at assassinating single targets (like the charger,) but the scout class is ALSO good at that, and can also come to help in a firefight and work on the flank to make sure their team is safe. the class is not as good at assassination like the sniper is, but it can get the job done and get other jobs done as well

if you can swap loadouts in the middle of fights in splatoon, the charger will see use when the time arises, for sure. in general, though, it's not going to be a commonly selected weapon the further up the ladder you go

 

[flc]

that's actually a really good point in favor of the chargers, it's just that it's the same with the sniper in tf2, but you only see him brought out as an offclass in 6v6, and that's because he's a niche choice. he's very effective within that niche, but it's niche none the less, so you're going to want to roll with another class when the options given to you are vague. for example, the sniper and spy are good at assassinating single targets (like the charger,) but the scout class is ALSO good at that, and can also come to help in a firefight and work on the flank to make sure their team is safe. the class is not as good at assassination like the sniper is, but it can get the job done and get other jobs done as well

if you can swap loadouts in the middle of fights in splatoon, the charger will see use when the time arises, for sure. in general, though, it's not going to be a commonly selected weapon the further up the ladder you go

my counterpoint to that would be that movement in tf2 is king, and sniper doesn't have anywhere near the same movement speed as demo/soldier/scout; it's rarely used not because the niche is small, but because the disadvantage is too large. sniper is great for defending last, but you then need to push out and suddenly you're stuck with a slow, fragile class that is basically a liability, as you say, when compared to a scout. and that's the real nice thing about charger: if you need to push up, you can move just as fast as your team and don't have to worry about soldiers bombing onto you and bopping you before your team can do anything.

of course I agree that when you're playing solo ranked, running charger is asking for trouble because if you get put into a team that doesn't support you, problems arise.

also I'm pretty sure changing loadout mid-match is confirmed to not be a thing

 

[FunkyLobster]

my counterpoint to that would be that movement in tf2 is king, and sniper doesn't have anywhere near the same movement speed as demo/soldier/scout; it's rarely used not because the niche is small, but because the disadvantage is too large. sniper is great for defending last, but you then need to push out and suddenly you're stuck with a slow, fragile class that is basically a liability, as you say, when compared to a scout. and that's the real nice thing about charger: if you need to push up, you can move just as fast as your team and don't have to worry about soldiers bombing onto you and bopping you before your team can do anything.

of course I agree that when you're playing solo ranked, running charger is asking for trouble because if you get put into a team that doesn't support you, problems arise.

also I'm pretty sure changing loadout mid-match is confirmed to not be a thing

that's a good point as well, but movement in splatoon is pretty big too. check out my splatterhopping thread and the splatdashing thread if you haven't already. there's a few techs already discovered that help you optimize your route from point a to point b, and i don't think the charger can really execute on any of them. if they can, or if there's some charger specific techniques, that rocks and it boosts the charger's viability by a lot, but as it stands the charger doesn't really compare. you can create a long straightaway of ink if you fully charge your rifle, but it's longer than the aforementioned techniques

i want to say that i don't really have anything against the chargers and i'm interested to see how it finds its role in competitive play as well, but realistically i think they'll fall to the wayside and let shooters be the forefront of competitive play, with rollers finding a niche in ink coverage, and chargers remaining a strong choice for assassinations and area denial on maps where with a meta that allows for chargers

and yeah, unless they've changed that and you can change your loadouts mid match, that does hurt the chargers viability :/

EDIT: if there's a charger that makes a larger base splat than the default one and has the same fire rate as the default one, then that can actually be used for splatterhopping, which would make a VERY interesting weapon. i hope something is like that in the game. even if it won't be effective, it would stand out, to say the least

 

[GamingWarthog]

that's a good point as well, but movement in splatoon is pretty big too. check out my splatterhopping thread and the splatdashing thread if you haven't already. there's a few techs already discovered that help you optimize your route from point a to point b, and i don't think the charger can really execute on any of them. if they can, or if there's some charger specific techniques, that rocks and it boosts the charger's viability by a lot, but as it stands the charger doesn't really compare. you can create a long straightaway of ink if you fully charge your rifle, but it's longer than the aforementioned techniques

i want to say that i don't really have anything against the chargers and i'm interested to see how it finds its role in competitive play as well, but realistically i think they'll fall to the wayside and let shooters be the forefront of competitive play, with rollers finding a niche in ink coverage, and chargers remaining a strong choice for assassinations and area denial on maps where with a meta that allows for chargers

and yeah, unless they've changed that and you can change your loadouts mid match, that does hurt the chargers viability :/

EDIT: if there's a charger that makes a larger base splat than the default one and has the same fire rate as the default one, then that can actually be used for splatterhopping, which would make a VERY interesting weapon. i hope something is like that in the game. even if it won't be effective, it would stand out, to say the least

You know we probably should do some digging for Charger and Roller techs when the game comes out, hopefully the full game lets us do a tutorial for them for easy testing. The individual weapons and how they combo are also going to make a huge impact on their effectiveness. I doubt Charger and Brush are ever going to be used on the same team on purpose beyond testing, but Charger and Roller is a good combo for Saltspray Rig. Although both weapon classes as a whole are less important than the Splattershots, whichever Charger weapon works best with the most Rollers will probably be the most commonly used Charger.

 

[jp4464]

There's a lot of really interesting discussion in this thread, definitely glad to see so much strategy being formed already.

In the past, I've compared this game to League of Legends, in the sense of how all of your teammates play a specific role, especially since you can't change weapon class mid-match.

As for my ideal Team comp, I definitely want a shooter weapon to support the roller on my team. The shooter can return fire for the roller if they become overwhelmed and need to retreat.

Depending on the map and game mode, having a Charger is going to be great for creating paths for your teammate, as well as scoring splatters from afar.

I believe someone said that the Charger and Brush shouldn't be on the same team, though I think Having a Brush on field that's constantly moving, allows users staying behind to warp to them, possibly to untouched territory. In this case, having both Charger and Brush on the team allows each to support each other from afar.

 

[GamingWarthog]

There's a lot of really interesting discussion in this thread, definitely glad to see so much strategy being formed already.

In the past, I've compared this game to League of Legends, in the sense of how all of your teammates play a specific role, especially since you can't change weapon class mid-match.

As for my ideal Team comp, I definitely want a shooter weapon to support the roller on my team. The shooter can return fire for the roller if they become overwhelmed and need to retreat.

Depending on the map and game mode, having a Charger is going to be great for creating paths for your teammate, as well as scoring splatters from afar.

I believe someone said that the Charger and Brush shouldn't be on the same team, though I think Having a Brush on field that's constantly moving, allows users staying behind to warp to them, possibly to untouched territory. In this case, having both Charger and Brush on the team allows each to support each other from afar.

In general looking at MOBAs is probably a good idea for seeing how the meta will evolve, especially in regards to the introduction of new weapons and how they work with what we already have. I suppose roaming support Brush + camp Charger could work, but it feels very risky.

 

[WydrA]

not entirely sure why people are putting so much emphasis on rollers.

my initial impression from looking at the mechanics was that the game's focus is on movement and ink control. aim isn't that important, and every other factor (territory control, momentum, etc) stems from these two factors. rollers aren't great at either. it might seem like they're good for the latter because of how much ground they cover, but let's be real here, that's mainly because it's almost impossible to be bad at using a roller to spread ink. what you're observing is a roller being used the only way it can be while the projectile weapons are being used badly by people who have had a grand total of zero minutes in the lab figuring out how to spread ink properly with other weapons.

now before everyone loses their collective heads, consider that the roller has basically no way of spreading ink long range outside of specials (which their high ink consumption and less squid form use renders inefficient). meanwhile, every other weapon in the demo is able to quickly and easily set up ink trails just about anywhere. perhaps having a roller to deal with tight corridors would be nice, but having more than one kills your ability to move in a fight. with proper ink spreading and movement you can very quickly and easily strafe around people using just about any projectile weapon. it gives you tactical options, and from my experience with shooters, tactical options tend to imply better weapons.

this is all particularly important when you try to make a comp around a team with rollers in it. if you run 2 roller/1 sniper/1 ar, what do you do when your ranged players get bopped? respawn timers might not seem that long, but considering how fast a couple people could coat an entire area (all the while building special), if you're stuck with two immobile players and nowhere for them to go, you're just going to get specials and secondaries chained on you over and over again. one roller--again, how would you regain momentum when you start dropping?

naturally, this is coming from someone who also spent zero minutes in the lab, but I have no reason to suspect that rollers would be good beyond certain specific circumstances. perhaps I'm overplaying how well other weapons can do what rollers can, but I'm finding it hard to see how the lack of range and movement options could possibly be made up for.

You make an interesting point. i never really considered that it may be possible to cover as much ground with guns if you optimize how you shoot. It's definitely something we should test more closely. The last thing you want to do is make assumptions like that that can hurt your chances so harshly.

that's a good point as well, but movement in splatoon is pretty big too. check out my splatterhopping thread and the splatdashing thread if you haven't already. there's a few techs already discovered that help you optimize your route from point a to point b, and i don't think the charger can really execute on any of them. if they can, or if there's some charger specific techniques, that rocks and it boosts the charger's viability by a lot, but as it stands the charger doesn't really compare. you can create a long straightaway of ink if you fully charge your rifle, but it's longer than the aforementioned techniques

i want to say that i don't really have anything against the chargers and i'm interested to see how it finds its role in competitive play as well, but realistically i think they'll fall to the wayside and let shooters be the forefront of competitive play, with rollers finding a niche in ink coverage, and chargers remaining a strong choice for assassinations and area denial on maps where with a meta that allows for chargers

and yeah, unless they've changed that and you can change your loadouts mid match, that does hurt the chargers viability :/

EDIT: if there's a charger that makes a larger base splat than the default one and has the same fire rate as the default one, then that can actually be used for splatterhopping, which would make a VERY interesting weapon. i hope something is like that in the game. even if it won't be effective, it would stand out, to say the least

I was actually thinking today that maybe you could use splat dashing for two people in a way.
Not sure if you've seen this since it's pretty new, but it's kind of important for the point I'm making. Optimized Splatdashing (at the beginning):

I was thinking that you could have someone follow jump from pool to pool left by the splatdashing. Kind of like Splathopping without the shooting. That way they could get places almost as quickly as a splatter class. Originally i was thinking for roller since they lack the ability to either SS-hop or dash, but now that you've bought up the charger needing early positioning, it might be a better match. Maybe you could have a charger splatter be kind of like adc support in league, where they stay fairly close together and watch each other's backs.

 

[flc]

looking at games from the same genre is already sketchy enough when considering strategy, but looking at entirely unrelated genres is sketchier still

this isn't to say that we won't have dedicated team roles (but let's be real here, we have dedicated team roles in almost every team fps out there as well; it's a staple of teamplay, not of mobas), but you gotta keep the game's context in mind here. 4 player teams => each player needs a lot of versatility and any gimmick is going to be a liability if you can't exploit it (see our conversation about chargers, which would be one of the easiest classes to run without dying)

I mean this is where experimentation comes in, but this also raises the possibility for crazy gimmicks that completely counterpick the opposing team and get you free rounds

 

[FunkyLobster]

looking at games from the same genre is already sketchy enough when considering strategy, but looking at entirely unrelated genres is sketchier still

this isn't to say that we won't have dedicated team roles (but let's be real here, we have dedicated team roles in almost every team fps out there as well; it's a staple of teamplay, not of mobas), but you gotta keep the game's context in mind here. 4 player teams => each player needs a lot of versatility and any gimmick is going to be a liability if you can't exploit it (see our conversation about chargers, which would be one of the easiest classes to run without dying)

I mean this is where experimentation comes in, but this also raises the possibility for crazy gimmicks that completely counterpick the opposing team and get you free rounds

that's the point i've been making, because the game is 4v4 and the objectives are very straightforward, player roles will be very fluid as opposed to the more rigid ones of mobas and team-based shooters like counter-strike and tf2. maps are small, the time to kill is fast, and you only have 4 players. you and your team are going to have to be adaptive to what the enemy is doing, because if anyone is lagging behind, it turns into 3v4 or 2v4, which is a nightmare. this might sound like a bad thing but it's honestly one of my favorite things about splatoon. you can get really creative with what you want to do and your team will always be reliant on each other, directly or indirectly.

 

[FunkyLobster]

I was thinking that you could have someone follow jump from pool to pool left by the splatdashing. Kind of like Splathopping without the shooting. That way they could get places almost as quickly as a splatter class. Originally i was thinking for roller since they lack the ability to either SS-hop or dash, but now that you've bought up the charger needing early positioning, it might be a better match. Maybe you could have a charger splatter be kind of like adc support in league, where they stay fairly close together and watch each other's backs.

i'm not sure what you mean. do you mean to say a player lays down ink and another splatterhops through it, without shooting? the only reason to splatterhop is because there's not ink in the first place, jumping doesn't actually save you time in squid form because you already move at a 2x your regular walk, and the arcs in your jumps in squid mode make that slower. so there's not much point for a player laying down ink and having another hop through it, unless splatterhopping is actually faster than just regularly swimming & your jumps are actually faster and i'm completely wrong lol

or do you mean another player followers the trail a splatterhopper leaves behind (which is what i think you meant)? that would work early in the round when rolling out of spawn for sure, i've actually done that before one round when i matched up with someone who knew how to splatterhop, but it'll be tricky and you probably wont find specific patches of ink like that later in the round when both teams manage to coat most of the map in their ink. that would make rolling out effective for charger as well as roller users, at least early in the round

also that's a really good video, did you make that?

 

[flc]

that's the point i've been making, because the game is 4v4 and the objectives are very straightforward, player roles will be very fluid as opposed to the more rigid ones of mobas and team-based shooters like counter-strike and tf2. maps are small, the time to kill is fast, and you only have 4 players. you and your team are going to have to be adaptive to what the enemy is doing, because if anyone is lagging behind, it turns into 3v4 or 2v4, which is a nightmare. this might sound like a bad thing but it's honestly one of my favorite things about splatoon. you can get really creative with what you want to do and your team will always be reliant on each other, directly or indirectly.

well I mean we've both been making that point, I'm just more inclined to think chargers will work than you is all lol

anyway it's starting to get a little circular on that point and nothing's gonna come of it until the game's developed a little

as for these movement techs: while I can certainly see some advantages, I feel like unless you're rolling out to mid as 4 and need to get into a dominant position, not putting at least some ink down is going to give you problems in the long run. if you get caught while splatterhopping (I already can tell I will hate this term) you're basically screwed without any decent escape method (though you shouldn't be getting into such situations I guess). fast rollout only matters if you can effect something gamechanging (to return to our tired tf2 comparison, demo and their damage output), otherwise you're just asking to get destroyed by that aoe pulse gun shooter thing or a set nade

 

[Kayeka]

The charger definitely seems to be the problem child of the bunch at the moment, but I don't think it will be phased out of competitive as some people seem to think. I'm basing this mostly on the Japanese Treehouse stream, where a dev (I presume) uses the charger to some pretty good effect. Skip to one hour. Still a little weaksauce at first sight, but at least better than when I was messing around with it. Fun fact: uncharged shots can still kill.

Someone made the comparison to Team Fortress 2's 6v6 matches, where specialised classes were mostly phased out in favour of classes that can switch roles at will. This makes sense, but I think that Splatoon will be fundamentally different because of some key features: very short respawn time, swimming and super jumps. In TF2 (in my admittedly limited experience), most engagements are fought to the death (unless you play scout) because retreat is difficult and the opponent can follow you quite easily. In Splatoon, thanks to the features I've listed, it's is far more viable to retreat, take cover and regroup once an engagement goes south, giving the enemy a little bit of ground to set yourself up into a more advantageous position about ten seconds later.

And that is why I think that chargers, having to rely on support, can have a role in competitive, because when the players have some good environmental awareness going, you'll never have to fight alone for long. Won't ever need more than one, though. Definitely not more than one if you also have a roller on the team.

Speaking of which, rollers are practically the w+m1 pyro of Splatoon; intimidating at first, but basically a free splat once you've mastered the arcane art of back pedalling and shooting. Having a roller on the team is important, if only for the huge amount of ink they spread, but just one can that job just fine.

So yeah, in the end, I'd say that, assuming that you're team is heading into an unknown map, you'd want to bring two splatters (Jr. or vanilla depending on personal preference), a charger, and a roller. The splatters make aggressive pushes against the enemy team, the charger locks down areas, and the roller covers the ground. Makes sense to me.

 

[FunkyLobster]

The charger definitely seems to be the problem child of the bunch at the moment, but I don't think it will be phased out of competitive as some people seem to think. I'm basing this mostly on the Japanese Treehouse stream, where a dev (I presume) uses the charger to some pretty good effect. Skip to one hour. Still a little weaksauce at first sight, but at least better than when I was messing around with it. Fun fact: uncharged shots can still kill.

Someone made the comparison to Team Fortress 2's 6v6 matches, where specialised classes were mostly phased out in favour of classes that can switch roles at will. This makes sense, but I think that Splatoon will be fundamentally different because of some key features: very short respawn time, swimming and super jumps. In TF2 (in my admittedly limited experience), most engagements are fought to the death (unless you play scout) because retreat is difficult and the opponent can follow you quite easily. In Splatoon, thanks to the features I've listed, it's is far more viable to retreat, take cover and regroup once an engagement goes south, giving the enemy a little bit of ground to set yourself up into a more advantageous position about ten seconds later.

And that is why I think that chargers, having to rely on support, can have a role in competitive, because when the players have some good environmental awareness going, you'll never have to fight alone for long. Won't ever need more than one, though. Definitely not more than one if you also have a roller on the team.

Speaking of which, rollers are practically the w+m1 pyro of Splatoon; intimidating at first, but basically a free splat once you've mastered the arcane art of back pedalling and shooting. Having a roller on the team is important, if only for the huge amount of ink they spread, but just one can that job just fine.

So yeah, in the end, I'd say that, assuming that you're team is heading into an unknown map, you'd want to bring two splatters (Jr. or vanilla depending on personal preference), a charger, and a roller. The splatters make aggressive pushes against the enemy team, the charger locks down areas, and the roller covers the ground. Makes sense to me.

that's a very good point, because of the fast time to kill fights in splatoon usually end in someone dying instead of retreating. i already made the point that rollers are basically pyros, and that their usefulness is in ink coverage and not necessarily fights

and that's a very good argument in favor of the charger, but i think higher up the ranks you go (either in outside competitive ladders or splatoon's ranked battles) you're going to see less of it because people just have raw, reliable dm skill, and if a fight goes awry i don't think that chargers would be better at immediate help than regular shooters because of positions, which is really important in splatoon. since you have a variety of ways to move about and there's always walls around the map, it's entirely likely that you're going to slip out of your charger's field of view trying to gain a positional advantage. in the amount of time a charger could reposition, get sights, charge fully (or partially and let you get the last shot) and fire, a shooter could come to your aid by use of splatterhopping or something similar

i have to say i've come out of this thread a lot more confident in the chargers competitive viability, but i do think that it'll have trouble competing with the importance of shooters on your team

 

[Kayeka]

that's a very good point, because of the fast time to kill fights in splatoon usually end in someone dying instead of retreating. i already made the point that rollers are basically pyros, and that their usefulness is in ink coverage and not necessarily fights

and that's a very good argument in favor of the charger, but i think higher up the ranks you go (either in outside competitive ladders or splatoon's ranked battles) you're going to see less of it because people just have raw, reliable dm skill, and if a fight goes awry i don't think that chargers would be better at immediate help than regular shooters because of positions, which is really important in splatoon. since you have a variety of ways to move about and there's always walls around the map, it's entirely likely that you're going to slip out of your charger's field of view trying to gain a positional advantage. in the amount of time a charger could reposition, get sights, charge fully (or partially and let you get the last shot) and fire, a shooter could come to your aid by use of splatterhopping or something similar

i have to say i've come out of this thread a lot more confident in the chargers competitive viability, but i do think that it'll have trouble competing with the importance of shooters on your team

Also very good points. While I am a bit more positive about the charger, I also doubt that they'll often top the scoreboards in a given match. Getting kills itself doesn't really do much, so the charger will often have to leave the scoring of point to the others of the team.

Normally I'd be all for taking on a supportive role like that (I used to play medic in TF2), but I'm also a total spaz that can't aim worth crap. I'll just stick with the Jr. for now.

 

[FunkyLobster]

Also very good points. While I am a bit more positive about the charger, I also doubt that they'll often top the scoreboards in a given match. Getting kills itself doesn't really do much, so the charger will often have to leave the scoring of point to the others of the team.

Normally I'd be all for taking on a supportive role like that (I used to play medic in TF2), but I'm also a total spaz that can't aim worth crap. I'll just stick with the Jr. for now.

demo and medic are my main classes in tf2; i just wanna be the team player :D