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Switch gyro has considerably more latency than Wii U

Discussion in 'Regular Discussion' started by knubie, Mar 14, 2017.

  1. knubie

    knubie Inkster Jr.

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    As I was playing Breath of the Wild on my Switch, I noticed right away the first time I got a bow that the motion input felt a bit laggy (similar to how Wii felt back in the day). I've put a lot of hours into Splatoon on my Wii U (which is very responsive) so it was pretty noticeable to me right away.

    One of the first things that blew me away about the Wii U gamepad was when I booted up Nintendoland and noticed just how accurate and responsive the motion controls were in that game. I hadn't experienced anything like it, and I believe it's one of the reasons Splatoon felt so good.

    I did some research into the Wii U gamepad's tech back then and found the key element it had that was missing in every other controller that features motion inputs was something called a "magnetometer" which offers so-called "nine-axis" controls. From this [article](http://www.nintendolife.com/news/2012/11/wii_u_gamepad_offers_nine_axis_controls):

    > Becky Oh, chief executive of PNI Sensor Corporation, the company behind the GamePad’s geomagnetic sensor, has spoken in an interview with GamesBeat about how the technology improves the accuracy and reliability of the GamePad.


    > "[The gyro and accelerometer] are good at tracking relativistic change. But it doesn’t tell you absolutely where you’re pointing and where the pointer is. What the magnetic sensor does is use the Earth’s magnetic field as a reference. It can always guide [the GamePad] back to what the absolute position is."


    > Oh believes the new geomagnetic technology will allow the failings of six-axis devices — such as the Wii Remote — to be eradicated, saying she thinks several genres of games can now be played much more responsively.


    > "I think games such as first-person shooters, driving games, or some type of flying game would be a good candidate for this type of technology. Sony’s Sharpshooter [Move peripheral] did something like this, but when we played with it we saw it was not accurately tracking. There was both latency and inaccuracy. In that case, hardcore gamers would go back to using a joystick or game controllers, but if you had a very accurate way — with no latency or very little latency — to use the gun to point what you’re shooting. I think that does change the way the game is played."

    I did some research and I could not find any information regarding whether the switch has a geomagnetic sensor like in the Wii U gamepad, and after comparing bow aiming in BOTW with Splatoon and Nintendoland on Wii U, the difference is absolutely noticeable.

    People who don't like gyro aiming won't care either way, but I'm afraid the exclusion of such a feature will completely ruin games like Splatoon. I could have lived with this if it was limited to the Joycons, but it doesn't even look like the pro control has this feature either. I'm hoping this is just some odd way the developers have implemented gyro aiming in BOTW and it will be more responsive in Splatoon, but I don't think that's the case.

    Does anyone have a copy of BOTW for both Switch and Wii U that can compare?
     
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  2. dylan_not_bob

    dylan_not_bob Stardust Crusquider
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    I do sometimes have issues aiming the bow in BotW, but usually have no problems with aiming the magnet or statis power. I can't remember what else I was doing the other day, but I remember thinking that the gyro felt pretty alright with whatever it was. For the record, I am using a pro controller as well.

    It will be interesting to see how it feels during the demo next week!
     
  3. Maave

    Maave Inkling Cadet

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    I think this is just the devs intentionally nerfing the motion for people who don't normally use motion controls. The motion controlled puzzles are much more sensitive than the bow. It seems like the motion for the bow and camera and whatnot were "smoothed" to avoid jitter. I also noticed there is a minimum threshold for movement or else the camera won't move. If you try to move really slowly it doesn't work. So I think it's a nerf for people who don't use motion normally. None of the people playing the Splat 2 demo (like ThatSRB2Dude) noticed laggy controls, they said it feels just like Splat 1
     
    Lyn likes this.
  4. RespawningJesus

    RespawningJesus I am a leaf on the wind - watch how I soar.
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    I have had no problems with the bow in BotW. I aim with the right analog stick, and then make adjustments with the gyro, which is what I imagine is how it will work in Splatoon 2.
     
  5. Ikaheishi

    Ikaheishi Bobble-chan
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    I played the Splatoon 2 demo version about a week and a half ago at a special event Nintendo put on and I didn't notice anything wrong with the gyro controls. It felt just like playing Splatoon itself on the Wii U… Actually a little smoother than Splatoon. The only thing I had a problem with motion-controls wise was that the sensitivity was set lower than I'm used to.

    I'd also like to note that I have the Wii U version of Breath of the Wild and I've noticed (and have died a few times because of) some latency with motion controls in the game. The motion controls in BotW just aren't as smooth or precise as Splatoon, which is a bit disappointing.
     
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  6. spoxbox

    spoxbox Full Squid

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    tbh this thread scared me a bit with the first post but it seems i can rest easy
     
  7. Award

    Award Squid Savior From the Future

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    The gyro and accelerometer are actually higher resolution than that in the gamepad, so it should actually be capable of GREATER accuracy and smaller movement. The bow is definitely set to very low resolution by design, however controlling it with separate joycons and using the right one alone for motion aiming is terrific. The motion puzzles (roll the ball into the hole) in shrines however show off how VERY finely accurate the motion controls can be. Now that I think about it, the aiming feels similar to Twilight Princess HD bow aiming on WiiU. I'm guessing Zelda always uses the same aiming code since Ocarina 3D.
     
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  8. Cyan

    Cyan Inkling Cadet

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    Not sure if BOTW is a fair game to compare to Splatoon, because I'm pretty sure BOTW runs at 900p30 when docked (and 720p30 undocked/Wii U). The fact that the framerate is half that of Splatoon (which definitely runs at 60FPS) would alone be enough to mess with the fluidity and precise aiming you get with motion. I played the Splatoon 2 Demo about 2 weeks ago in London, and the game felt just as good as Splatoon 1 for aiming, I would even say it felt more responsive and more sensitive than 1 ever did (I always use -1 in Splatoon though, never really messed with the sensitivity). There shouldn't be anything to worry about, and the devs wouldn't nerf motion controls to make stick more viable, because deliberately making poorer controls for a game would end in a huge outcry from fans and make the game bad when it shouldn't be. You do have the Testfire in 9 days' time, so you have 6 hours worth of sessions to mess with the game and compare to Splatoon 1 but I felt no real difference or degrade in quality from 1 with motion (except for the Joycon Grip being awkward with the shoulder buttons).
     
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  9. knubie

    knubie Inkster Jr.

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    I actually find the motion puzzles even less responsive than the bow aim, which leads me to think that it must have been intentional. ThatSRB2Dude did actually mention that there was "a bit of input lag" but that he was still able to aim accurately. Whether or not the input lag he experienced is as noticeable as it is in BOTW remains to be seen. I hope it's not.

    Do you have a source you can link to about the gyro/accelermeter being higher resolution? I'd be interested to look at the details on the chip that's acutally in use (couldn't find any details on ifixit). The main issue I've experienced, however, is not lack of granularity, but a noticeable ~100ms input lag.

    The 30fps would only add, at most, an additional 16ms of latency which would be hardly noticeable I think. The latency that I've noticed is closer to 100ms or more.

    And to be clear, I'm not saying I've experienced a lack of accuracy with the motion controls, but there is a noticeable 100-200ms latency. Which is a HUGE amount of input lag for a competitive game like Splatoon.
     
  10. knubie

    knubie Inkster Jr.

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    Looks like the joycons (and presumably the pro controller) use a STMicroelectronics SH641 according to this article at techinsights, which "has a full-scale acceleration range of ±2/±4/±8/±16 g and an angular rate range of ±125/±245/±500/±1000/±2000 dps."

    Compare that to the Invensense MPU-6500 on the HTC Vive controllers and the accuracy looks identical (however the vive has the benefit of external sensors).

    I still don't know what this means for the Switch in terms of latency of motion control input.
     
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  11. blu

    blu Inkling Cadet

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    I have heard that the latency might be due to wifi issues in the Switch, so I would check your wifi connectivity to see if its strong enough, or if its disconnecting during gameplay. If its a single player game try airplane mode to see if the gyro controls are smoother.
     
  12. knubie

    knubie Inkster Jr.

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    So Tomorrow Corp just released a few games for the Switch, and some of them use the gyro in the joycon as a cursor. Someone recorded a demo of the cursor in action here:



    If you download the video and run it frame by frame you can see that there is about a 3 frame delay between when he moves the joycon, and when the cursor moves. Since the video is running at ~30 frames per second, that translates to a ~100ms delay, which is exactly what I predicted the latency to be in BOTW.

    Now this latency may be attributed to "smoothing" where the software samples the position across 2-3 frames in order to make the cursor appear less jittery. Hopefully this is the case, and the smoothing is removed in Splatoon, otherwise it does not bode well for the game.
     
    #12 knubie, Mar 16, 2017
    Last edited: Mar 17, 2017
  13. Astral

    Astral Astral Finish!

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    1ms monitor meta
     
  14. knubie

    knubie Inkster Jr.

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    So it seems I'm not the only person concerned about this issue. ThatSRB2Dude has recently released a video where he has expressed his dissatisfaction in the latency of the switch gyro controls.



    My only hope is that this is some kind of a software issue, and not a limitation of the hardward.
     
  15. Squirty

    Squirty Full Squid

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    I performed a comparison test during the testfire, but I did not specifically test for latency differences between Wii U and Switch. I plan to do that when Splatoon 2 has been released using my setup:

    https://squidboards.com/threads/acc...ols-between-joy-con-and-pro-controllers.28620

    I would use a low-input lag PC monitor (Dell professional) for the Wii U and the built-in Switch display recorded at 60fps and both controllers having motion input from my setup I used for the initial comparison test.
     
  16. Inyo

    Inyo Inkling Cadet

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    I didn't notice any delay using motion controls. Obviously a pro like Dude will sense it more than a middle-tier player like myself would, but I did not have any issues and the game felt the same to me, maybe a bit MORE sensitive since the Joycon in the grip don't weigh near as much as the Gamepad does
     
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  17. knubie

    knubie Inkster Jr.

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    After doing some testing with the high speed camera on my iPhone 6s, I've come to the conclusion that input latency on the switch is *very high overall* at about 130ms. This is true whether hooked up to my lcd tv, or in handheld/tabletop mode. I ran several tests in BOTW, including jumping, closing the inventory, and tilting with the gyro. All tests averaged around 32-33 frames of input latency. And at 240fps that comes to around 130-140ms.

    Doing the same experiments, connected to the same TV, using Splatoon 1 as the test subject, the Wii U had an average input latency of only 16-17 frames (70ms).

    Now, granted, these are two different games, so it could just be that Zelda in particular has a very high input latency for whatever reason, but this would help explain why others have described Splatoon 2 as being less 'snappy' than the original.

    I've uploaded a couple of comparison videos for those that want to take a look frame-by-frame as I did.

    https://www.dropbox.com/sh/3sskoj14ihvyzhu/AAB-pO1hf95TsjEr1uuQIbDca?dl=0
     
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  18. Maave

    Maave Inkling Cadet

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    Thanks for the detailed tests. I did notice it in the test fire once I tried the charger. It was very slight but enough to feel it when making snaps.
     
  19. Ulk

    Ulk Inkling Cadet

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    In BotW the motion controls actually worked quite well for me. I'm pretty good at performing precise shots.Not any less than I was in Splatoon 1. Splatoon 2 did feel a little different I must admit, but I was hardly able to tell, since I use extremely low motion control settings (-4 to -2).
     
  20. Dessgeega

    Dessgeega Squid Savior From the Future
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    Thought: Unless the pro controller is proven to be consistently better in this regard, I think it's kind of a moot point. Everyone has to use the same controllers, so the playing field will be level regardless of any latency or lag.
     
  21. Goont

    Goont Full Squid

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    Reasons like this are why I hope Splatoon 1 will stay have a active competitive scene. Using the Gamepad to spray feels beautiful. It's by far the closest a console controller has ever come to a mouse, and sometimes is arguably better than a mouse. I think another factor is the width and weight itself which was made with this type of motion aiming in mind. Sure, controllers such as the Steam Controller and Switch Pro support motion aiming, but having that bulky large rectangular shape simply made the aiming feel more natural and accurate. The Gamepad is a beefy and unruly controller, but for a shooter it works incredibly well. I feel it's very similar to the "Duke" Controller of the original XBOX. People hated it for it for it's size and weight, but that was a factor in why players still use for competitive original Halo today.
     
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  22. Astral

    Astral Astral Finish!

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    I myself used the Pro Controller. I have been playing both Splatoon and the Splatoon 2 testfire on a 1ms response monitor. I noticed latency basically immediately. I played on a regular tv once, and it was actually unbearable switching from what i was used to.
     
  23. Squirty

    Squirty Full Squid

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    I don't mean to say that there isn't a change in latency in Splatoon 2, but another possible source for some of the different feel might be a difference in behaviour for flick motions (rapid movement out and then back). If the game interprets this differently, it could give a very different feel, that might feel like "high latency" for chargers who use flick-shots. I'll do a more thorough test of this in my day 1 Splatoon 2 test.

    Also, on the note of BotW: motion controls in that game seem much worse than Splatoon 2 testfire in some ways, from my testing. I feel like it's not a great comparison, but still very interesting to hear that it shows a high latency for motion controls.
     
  24. Christoph

    Christoph Inkling

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    Hi, I just registered here to say that I thought the same during the Splatoon 2 Global Testfire. The latency seemed very high with the Pro Controller, so I went back to Splatton on Wii U right after, and sure enough it felt way more direct.

    By now I've seen several people comment on this in different places, and from those comments it seemed like this issue may or may not be more obvious to players with high sensitivity settings. Myself, I have sensitivity set to 5 on the Wii U, and experimented with various high sensitivities on the Switch, for whatever that may be worth. I usually play Splash-o-matic.

    Also, is it just me, or is the latency a bit better with the Joy-Con? I've recently bought Shovel Knight: Treasure Trove, and considering that that's a game that benefits a lot from low latency, using the Pro Controller made the input feel really indirect to me. The Joy-Con are better (and I'm not sure how those compare to the Wii U Gamepad). In BotW, I've also noticed that I could do flick shots with bows on closeby enemies when I use the Joy-Con in their grip, but I would usually miss trying the same with the Pro Controller.
     
  25. Goont

    Goont Full Squid

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    I wonder if a weighted Joy-Con grip could solve this. If the Joy-Cons truly are superior to the pro controller in terms of latency and accuracy, then a large middle piece between the two could work things out. I bet the Charge-able grip is heavier too.
     
  26. RespawningJesus

    RespawningJesus I am a leaf on the wind - watch how I soar.
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    It is heavier, but it isn't much of a difference. Charging grip is still pretty light.
     
  27. Christoph

    Christoph Inkling

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    Like I said, I'm not certain about the difference between the controllers. It might just be that it just is like that for me, for whatever other reasons.

    If anybody else wants to give their own perspective, attempting headshots on nearby (Cursed) Moblins with a bow in BotW is probably the thing that has worked the worst for me when using the Pro Controller, compared to the Joy-Con grip. I'd love hearing how well or not it works for other people in direct comparison between the two controllers.

    Edit: On a sidenote, my avatar = my favorite position on the couch when playing Splatoon.
     
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  28. shani

    shani Semi-Pro Squid

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    This actually has me worrying. I didn't have a Switch during the Testfire, but now I do and after playing a few games (not BotW, I've been playing that on Wii U) the controls just felt a bit odd, they weren't as precise and as responsive as they used to with the Wii U or with any Nintendo console in general, actually. In addition to a slight latency of the motions controls there also was an unresponsiveness of the control sticks, mostly went away after recalibrating them. But still, the controllers just didn't feel as sophisticated and high-quality as they were before. Contrary to its modern and sleek looks, I think the Switch consists of more cheaply produced hardware - maybe because they had to cram everything inside that tablet and at the same time ensure that the device is running fast enough.
    Reading this thread just confirms that sentiment... I really hope Splatoon 2 won't be ruined by this.

    I couldn't agree more! I've always had the feeling that the weight of the Gamepad actually makes for better controls, because there is a bigger 'resistance' when you move the Gamepad, which very slightly holds you back and ensures you don't make too big of a movement (of course I'm talking about tendencies here, not absolute values).

    Haha, that's a really cool avatar. :)
     
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  29. knubie

    knubie Inkster Jr.

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    I definitely noticed this during the Splatoon 2 testfire, specifically with the joycons detached ( I didn't have my grip with me ). However I didn't notice much of a difference when I tested the button input latency with the high speed camera. But I could definitely "feel" a difference when playing the testfire.
     
  30. Lyn

    Lyn Squid Savior From the Future
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    Motion controls seem fine to me, at least as someone who loathed using them with the gamepad. Joycons seperate play fine.
     
  31. ForteReborn

    ForteReborn Inkling Commander

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    I do real life Olympic archery, so I will have to see how BoTW handles with the lag with firing arrows. (I use a bow that weighs up to 20 pounds, with a force backed by 30 pounds of torque when firing.)

    So I will have to see what this lag personally is, and if it messes with my shot execution. I do not have such game yet, and usually the testfire seems to always suffer a bit of a blowback with the lag issues since it is in demo. I think it could be they could of tweaked for more realism since actual weapons do take some time to aim, depending on the weight ratio of context.

    Say if it is aluminum, it is heavier, and carbon is lighter. But then people want heavier for aim, and people want lighter. It's a trend that seems to pass to person to person. But enough of my blabbering. If the game has such happening, then adjusting to it might be annoying, or could be a good thing.

    ((It is like when they took snaking out of Mario Kart, hurgh, hurrrrghhh....Nintendo...))
     
  32. dr3am

    dr3am Inkling

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    I don't think I notice much lag (maybe just a little) however I do experience gyro drift sometimes (with both the Joycons and Pro Controller) and often have to recalibrate the gyro to fix it. Not too often though, pretty much only once every play session, if even.
     
  33. Kise Ryota

    Kise Ryota Inkling

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    Could someone run a test now? And if possible, comparing the Pro vs Joy-con.
     

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