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Weapon Viability Thread Mk. 1 (Phase 1: S Rank and A Rank discussion)

Discussion in 'Competitive Discussion' started by Of Moose & Men, Oct 26, 2015.

  1. Eclipsc70

    Eclipsc70 Pro Squid

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    I honestly was not initially going to comment because I do not agree with these kinda tier lists because they tend to make newer players avoid anything that is not in the S/A tiers. However I choose to ask, as a roller specialist, why the Carbon Deco and the Octobrush are both so high on the list especially if both of the ink brush variants are in the lowest tier?

    The vanilla Octobrush is not very different from an ink brush aside from the slightly increased range and power and the ink brush being faster. If an ink brush and an octo brush go head to head while they are both in range then they will both die due to the octo being slow but more powerful and the ink brush being weaker but twice as quick. The octobrush has more range than the ink brush but not by much; This range increase does not matter when you are versing any gun aside from the sploosh since everything else out ranges you. This puts the Octobrush in the same position as the ink brush in the sense that it needs to play stealthy anyway but it is slower and guzzles ink. If the increased rank is due to the matter of the octos panic kraken button, the ink brush has bubbler which, in my honest opinion, is infinitely better considering you can share it with team mates and the ink brush can gain its special more quickly than the octo brush can. The octo nouveau will be infinitely better at combat than both the ink and the current octo brush in its own respect because of the range its getting.

    As for the Carbon Deco. Seekers can be very subpar and the Deco not only has it as its sub, but also as its special. Its effective OHKO range is equal to that of the ink brush but it is slower and does not cover turf properly. I feel that stripping the deco of its burst bombs really hurt its movement options because the burst bombs took up much less ink than the seekers. Not to mention the seekers are ridiculously hindered on some maps.

    I hope my contribution is taken into consideration and my question is answered swiftly and properly.
     
    #21 Eclipsc70, Oct 27, 2015
    Last edited: Oct 27, 2015
    Of Moose & Men likes this.
  2. Cloudy

    Cloudy Shake Shake!

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    This is some quality bait I'll give you that
     
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  3. Static

    Static Inkling Cadet

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    I need to start following Clody any and everywhere I can.
     
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  4. Of Moose & Men

    Of Moose & Men Inkling Fleet Admiral

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    Long winded post incoming. . .

    I did not dismiss his nomination, I said we should hold off on it. I agree Bamboozler should not be C. However from the over all lack of reputable users (one is not enough to convince me it's A btw) and the fact it's nearly nonexistent in Tour play is what lead to it being placed as low as it is. It's not quite the squiffer, it's not quite a Charger and it isn't a shooter, it's sits in an awkward medium. Its sub and special combinations aren't the most fitting things either. There is absolutely no way it is on par with any of the weapons currently in A-. Since the idea was to restrict discussion to S and A for the first few days I said to hold off on discussing that until we get to B where I feel it will most certainly belong. Let's try not to take it personal shall we. Thanks.

    I plan on adding them when a picture comes along. The Custom Range Blaster will likely be about A-/A, because it is absolutely decked out. Splat bombs allow it to play keep away, being a blaster takes mid range weapons tremble and Kraken gives it the trump it needs for close combat. Sadly it does have to have a fully charged special to do so, but it is very much viable. I'd almost go as far as to say high A. I have yet to get a comfortable feel for the Rapid Blaster Pro yet, so if you would like to discuss it's placement, you are more than welcome. Along with any unranked weapon.

    So, I'm not going to address every single point you made I will simply address the ones I personally am unsure of.

    Firstly, the sub ranks are organized alphabetically, since stacking A ranks among other A ranks would be far too tedious when you consider they are different weapon classes and provide different roles. So, I went with alphabetically instead to alleviate any more headaches than there already will be.

    As far as the TTK goes, I feel that is the epitome of S right now. It's definitely the easiest weapon in the game to "master". It's got all of about 0 downsides. Suction Bombs are always incredible, Inkzooka despite the new Nerf is still utterly amazing and the TTKs stats over all aren't too bad either. Great range, power, and firing rate. Yes it received a nerf, however, it's not enough to make it any worse, it's still an absolute monster even with being turned down a small, small, notch. I personally feel it should remain S for such reasons. It's still an utterly amazing weapon. Same applies to .96 Gal for the most part.

    I'm not too sure about moving the .52 Gal up myself. That may just be me though. Splash Walls are still utterly amazing, but I'm not sure how much I like Killer Wail as its special. It is amazing in some maps, however, not all of them. It's an iffy special, where as the Kraken, Bubbler, and Inkzooka are consistent in everything they do. If it had a different Special I'd be more than happy to agree with you. It may just be me and my lack of knowledge on how well it may work however.

    The last one I'm actually in agreement with but mainly because of a weapon that isn't posted and that's the Range Blaster. Blasters Guzzle ink as it is, and Splash walls do as well. Put the two together and you have little to no ink to work with. Factor in the recovery time after throwing a wall up and Range blaster has a hard time being extremely effective. Inkstrike is just a "meh" at best special and just doesn't quite work well with many weapons as is. In any of the ranked modes that is. I feel it should be B+ at most, personally. Especially when you take into account the Custom Range Blaster that we just recently received and its absolutely insane loadout. It is set for long range, mid range and close combat it's absolutely decked out, which I acknowledged above. I can easily see it being A- at minimum if not pushing into A.



    Honestly, my intention was to not have the Carbon roller deco on the list at all yet since I couldn't get an idea for where it should be. One thing is for sure, it most certainly shouldn't be A-. So that is there completely as a mistake and I intend to take it down. If you care to have a discussion on it feel free, otherwise, I'll likely be putting it in about B if not B- in the next couple days.

    As for the Octobrush, I believe A- is too high as well. Despite what Silver stated, it has pretty sizable problems. It's much better than the ink brush because of its specials and subs. Yea, it has power and slightly better range however it's also slower, and has slower flicks, but it's sub and specials are what make it better than its other brush bretheren. Regardless it shouldn't be A-. The truth is, Inkbrushes subs are absolutely atrocious. And if it has good subs, its special is in the same boat. Neither of the ink brushes are really viable if at all. Where as the Octobrush has some very notable pros. Kraken is definitely one of them, and the support beacons supply is always nice. The downsides only being it's flick rate and movement speed. It shouldn't be A-, but it's most certainly above the other brushes.


    Thanks for the quality post. It really got discussion moving forward.
     
    River09 and Static like this.
  5. Heisenberg

    Heisenberg Inkling

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    The Inkbrush will always be bottom tier in every tier list you'll see because it's extremely difficult to use at a high level. It's mainly considered to be a support weapon but it requires a lot support as well to actually contribute to a match. People just don't care about it enough to "master" it because it's easier to stick to something that already works. And also because it's easier on your index finger.
     
    #25 Heisenberg, Oct 28, 2015
    Last edited: Oct 28, 2015
  6. Tobias H.

    Tobias H. Inkling

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    If these are the definitions of A Rank (emphasis mine), can you explain why the Dynamo Roller is listed in A+?

    Virtually every weapon in S and A+ Rank either hard- or soft-counters Dynamo -- it can definitely not go toe-to-toe with these, except the Tentatek and the Krak-On (chargers and long-ranged shooters have an easy time against Dynamo; with splash walls, even a .52 Gal can give it a hard time...). I also don't see how the Dynamo Roller has a "strong metagame presence" when you very rarely see it in tournaments and it's nowhere near as common in S+ lobbies as the other weapons.

    (I'm not saying Dynamo shouldn't be in A Tier by the way, just that your definition seems to be in conflict with its ranking.)
     
    #26 Tobias H., Oct 28, 2015
    Last edited: Oct 28, 2015
  7. ILikeKirbys

    ILikeKirbys Inkling Commander

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    Ah, I see. that makes sense.

    TTK = Tentatek, yeah? Because I'm starting to see that myself. Maybe I just thought it fell off a bit because I hadn't seen it much nline, but now I have, and it still feels like a great weapon.
    I can see your point on the .96 too. Even with inferior Splash Walls and Kraken, it still has Splash Walls and Kraken. I just hesitate to put something I raely see anymore into S, but I suppose it could still stay on the strength of how good it is.

    Yeah, I could see the .52 Gal as among-the-best-in-Splatoon if it had any other Special (can you imagine this thing with Bubbler? I can), but I can also say that about it right now. Splash Walls and Splattershot range is a good combination (not as good as Splash Walls and .96 Gal range, but hey, the .52 Gal has a tighter spread than the .96 if I recall correctly), plus its run speed while firing is pretty good so you can strafe when Splash Wall can't be put up fast enough, plus you can two-shot (though Damage Up investment is a good idea to keep it that way, it's rather close to a 3-shot so it's probably a good idea to counter Defense Ups), plus you have good (not great, but good) range. Really, the only faults are that some weapons outrange it and that Killer Wail is still kinda weird on it (though having an infinite-range attack is nice, and it's good for aiming at an area to keep enemies out for a few seconds), and I just don't feel those are all that bad compared to its strengths.

    Yeah, the Custom was in the back of my head while I was writing about the regular Range Blaster. You've pretty much got it on that note, though personally I'd stick it in B at the moment. It might go into +/- depending on the other weapons in the Bs, but I can't see it above B+, and I have trouble even seeing it there.
    As the the Custom, yeah that's pretty much correct. I'd slot it in at A- (the longer time between shots that the Range Blasters have is quite a detriment, and Splat Bombs still require a lot of ink even if they don't shut off ink recovery for 3 seconds like Walls do, and Kraken doesn't let you attack immediately after it ends anymore which seems kinda bad for the already-slow-firing Range Blaster), though if the Kraken nerf hadn't happened I could maybe see it in A, so it's fairly close.

    Okay then!
    I feel that the Carbon Roller Deco is rather map dependent. Since its loadout consists of Seekers and More Seekers, you really shouldn't use the Deco on maps where Seekers aren't very useful. However, I'm not entirely sure the opposite holds true: If a map is very Seeker-friendly (lots of inkable ground in long stretches or just as wide-open areas, composed of or has areas with corridors where there is less room to dodge Seekers), I'm not sure I'd pick the Deco over a weapon that has Seekers and a different Special, or just more range. Hell, even the normal Carbon Roller just feels like a superior pick to the Deco on most maps, even the Seeker-friendly ones, due to having Burst Bombs and the options those provide (quickly inking walls, hitting faraway areas, cancelling a throw into a flick to slightly extend the range at which you can reliably kill enemies), which the Deco just doesn't have an answer for.
    But even in a vacuum, if we just weigh the Carbon Roller Deco on its own merits, I can't see myself picking it for reasons beyond "I enjoy using it, and also this map is a good one for Seeker tossing." On some maps, Seekers can see some use as a very-long-range attack (which is something the Carbon Roller in general needs, though the original filled this with the not-quite-as-long-range Burst Bombs and Inkzookas), though this requires a lack of gaps in the floor to be effective (otherwise your boats just fall ineffectually through a hole, which probably isn't useful), and sometimes you can use them for surprise attacks up ramps (the central tower in Blackbelly, the center area in Arowana, and any other sloped area could be used for this) or drop them down onto areas with enemies in them (any area where you can drop a Seeker from above onto a lower area with enemies in it, I'm sure there are plenty of those). However, the Deco stil has a pretty big flaw. The first is its lack of upward reach, which prevents you from doing much of anything against enemies who get above you (the original Carbon has the same problem to a much lesser extent, since its loadout mitigates this; Burst Bombs can be aimed upward and Inkzooka also has good vertical reach, whereas Seekers can't go up unless they're on a ramp).
    Overall, the Carbon Roller Deco is fun, and it can be good, but I just feel it requires a bit too much support from teammates to be good compared to most weapons. I'd put it in C.

    Yeah, compared to the Inkbrushes, the Octo is just better in all fields except brush-rolling speed and turf covering (and even there it only really loses to the Inkbrush).
    However, I'd argue the Octobrush probably belongs in A- or B+. This is mostly if not entirely because of the comparison with the Krak-On, which shares its loadout and is arguably superior because it can one-shot. The Octobrush is more dedicated to support, which probably hurts it a bit when the Krak-On can do that as well, but it can get around faster with its faster rolling and can maybe cover areas faster with its swings. I feel the Krak-On is better, but the Octobrush is fairly good too, just not as much. It can be a solid alternative though, and maybe be a bit better on occasion (on maps where you can brush-sprint to most areas, I feel the Octobrush might be a bit better since it can get around more easily than the Krak-On due to its faster speed), so I wouldn't put it that much lower, maybe in B+ or B.
     
    #27 ILikeKirbys, Oct 28, 2015
    Last edited: Oct 28, 2015
  8. xInsomniax

    xInsomniax Inkling

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    Question, can someone put names next to those images? I definitely don't know all the weapons just from their image. That would be helpful.

    *my 2 cents*
     
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  9. Vitezen

    Vitezen Inkling Cadet

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    Could you post the source for your data? Everything here seems to be organized by theory and conjecture, not numbers.

    Also, how have you established that this isn't a tier list? Look at the OP. "The general idea of the topic is to rank each weapon under "rankings" based on its Viability, that go in descending order. Since this is a general tier list, everything is lumped together."

    I believe that if you want to understand viability in general, the easiest and most direct way is to look at how often a weapon is played competitively, and how often teams who use it win. Individual viability is highly subjective and basically only applies on a personal level. That's to be discovered by each player once they know what weapons are seeing play in general. What I'm suggesting is to use a number-based tier ranking system, instead of a verbal and opinion-based one.
     
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  10. GDK

    GDK Inkling

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    Don't get me wrong, I agree it's better than the ink brush (even though I prefer the inkbrush) but THAT MUCH better ? I don't think so.
     
  11. SunnyBunny

    SunnyBunny Inkling

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    Tentatek and 52 gal should trade places. Dynamo in A+ is questionable, because I never really struggled with them. They do provide excellent team support however. Everything else seems about right.
     
  12. Of Moose & Men

    Of Moose & Men Inkling Fleet Admiral

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    It's partially based on Theory and conjecture yes. No one uses the weapons below B really, so that can't be recorded based on tournament play. Which is about 90% of the reason I created this thread, was to get everyone's opinions on where those weapons should be placed. As far as the higher placed weapons I watched several recordings of streams from tournaments and got a general consensus on what everyone was using, what was successful of all of it, what proved to be the leading factor in wins, etc. These aren't set in stone, they were meant to move. So honestly, my sources were only used to get a consensus on where it should start out. Instead of focusing on things that in the end shouldn't matter, how about we try talking about the list itself and where things should be. You're just cluttering up the thread.

    Also, again, I simply copied and pasted a template, though, thanks for pointing that out, I'll get around to changing it soon.


    Will do.

    I'll admit, the definitions seem to allow minds to wander as it is extremely vague. The Idea I was going with was how well it performs as a defensive and support weapon. Perhaps A+ was shooting too high, I'll admit, that may have been backed by my own bias towards the weapon and its capabilities. However, it isn't quite a weapon you can just pick up and abuse like the other S and A+ ranked weapons. I still believe it should be in A, but the more I think about it, the less I feel comfortable with it in A+.
     
    #32 Of Moose & Men, Oct 29, 2015
    Last edited: Oct 29, 2015
  13. seakingtheonixpected

    seakingtheonixpected Inkling Cadet

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    This has already been discussed a few times, but the Krak-On Roller probably shouldn't be A+. You are basically saying that Squid Beakons and Kraken are better than Suction Bombs and Killer Wail, which doesn't make a lot of sense. The Krak-On Roller is out-ranged by EVERYTHING, even the Inkbrush.

    Popular != good
     
    #33 seakingtheonixpected, Oct 29, 2015
    Last edited: Oct 29, 2015
  14. Of Moose & Men

    Of Moose & Men Inkling Fleet Admiral

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    I'm not exactly saying it's better, because honestly that's entirely dependent on the weapon those are attached to. However, The Krak-On is meant to get up close, and take out the enemy/cover ink/be fodder etc. Beacons allow it to get back into the action quickly, and Kraken despite its "nerf" is still a classic trump the Roller greatly appreciates. Yes, it's outranged, and that's where Kraken's strongest aspect is when it comes to the roller. Normal Splat Roller completely removes that and almost forces it into a more defensive grey area because of its special and sub. It's not terrible, but I do feel Krak-On is a lot more well suited than the normal Splat Roller is.
     
  15. seakingtheonixpected

    seakingtheonixpected Inkling Cadet

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    I didn't say it was terrible, just that the Splat Roller kit has far more options than the Krak-On Roller, so regardless of whatever tier the Krak-On Roller is in the Splat Roller should be above it since its a lot harder to abuse a Splat Roller than a Krak-On Roller.

    In high level ranked: Suction Bombs > Squid Beakons && Killer Wail > Kraken
    Thus Splat Roller > Krak-On Roller

    Kraken has the possible exception of being better in Tower Control, but that's extremely conditional.
     
    #35 seakingtheonixpected, Oct 29, 2015
    Last edited: Oct 29, 2015
  16. Of Moose & Men

    Of Moose & Men Inkling Fleet Admiral

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    Uhm, that's not really how it works. If anything, the Krak-On has more options, but I digress. Again, you have to take what those subs and specials are attached to. You can't just tell me, "this sub is better therefore this weapon is better". I explained that the Krak-On roller is exceptional at getting up close and personal with the opposing team thanks to beacons, decent speed, and Kraken for when things get dicey. The Splat Roller gets rid of that and forces it to play more defensively. If you're going to use a defensive Roller, The splat roller is not the first one I would recommend to anyone.

    Yea, maybe on a different weapon those subs and specials would be better, but I have to strongly disagree that the splat roller should be above Krak-On. If we based everything on subs and specials alone, anything with an Inkzooka should be A+. Can't look at these weapons in a vacuum. You're going to need more than "these subs and specials are better" to convince me they should trade positions.
     
  17. Agosta44

    Agosta44 Inkling Fleet Admiral

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    .52 gal is still S. It's better than .96 deco at this point. Both Luna Blasters are still A+. Dynamo is S. Eliter is A+. It's nowhere near as dominant on all maps as it used to be.

    A lot of your lower tiers are weird. I don't think anything in game can really be defined as lower than B+. Everything is viable in competitive outside of Inkbrush.
     
    hero and GeneraLight like this.
  18. Silver

    Silver Speedrunning Inkling
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    Maybe not better enough to be as high up as it is but it definitely deserves to be a tier above
     
  19. 1o2

    1o2 Inkling Cadet

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    Right now the OP is pretty much putting lower tiers kinda based on a whim, as there aren't many results for a significant amount of weapons. That's why it seems weird. But I agree, everything at this point is viable outside of Inkbrush, but no one is really experimenting, so this viability thread will be the same for awhile....
     
  20. Vitezen

    Vitezen Inkling Cadet

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    Are the divisions between A ranks really necessary? I can understand S and A, but the A ranks aren't very defined. I think everything in A deserves to at least be in A, but I wouldn't really consider any of them greater than the other.
     

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