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Why Competitive Splatoon should use all Game Modes instead of one

Agosta44

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Agosta
I'm sorry to bring this up, but is that all I can expect from this thread? Discussing the youth of a new game's metagame is a very ordinary and normal topic. If it's not to be admitted to, then I guess an honest discussion can't happen. In every competitive scene I've been a part of, quality discourse has mattered every single time. It's made not only a big difference, but a defining difference in the growth of a game's competitive scene.

I understand we're all big fans of Splatoon, if there's another place to discuss topics like these then I'd appreciate a link. Apologies if this isn't the ideal place to discuss this sort of stuff in depth. Cheers! :) Keep on splatting, squids!
We already know what the best weapons are, best loadouts, best builds, etc. All that's really left is breaking the game. Some teams are more ahead of others though which is why you might be saying the meta is unknown etc.
 
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Cobbs

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That's not really what a metagame is fully about. A metagame consists heavily on counterplay, counter strats, and the development of how people play the game seriously for competition. It's an emergent element. It's what makes many competitive games/sports engaging (both for viewers and competitors), and what makes certain strong strategies weak as a competitive metagame matures (ie chaingrabs becoming less of a huge factor in melee when determining matchups - one of many examples).

It's about people learning to deal with the strategies that groupthink has wrought, and then learning to deal with those counter strats, and so on. The cycle repeats, creating an emergent and mature metagame; people's ideas of what's powerful and what's powerful in practice begin having a life of their own.
 

SupaTim

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As someone who came here to learn what those best loadouts/builds etc. are, you've done a really great job of making those hard to find. They are buried in live streams, youtube videos, and skype conversations. If there is a thread where these things are discussed, please link them for me. I've checked this thread, but it doesn't have this information in it.

Usually a forum like this actually has meaningful discussions about these sorts of things on the forum. So far, all I have found is anecdotal stories and links to youtube. Shouldn't someone put together a post with meaningful data about best loadouts for different maps? or how each weapon should be used in different modes? I would love to read about these things but I can't find them. Maybe I am not trying hard enough to find it, if it is there, could you point me in the right direction?

Sorry if this just comes off as bitching, I'm just very confused about the purpose of this forum. Are you guys just patting yourselves on the back for being in a great club or are you trying to put your analyses of the game into one central location or perhaps trying to teach newcomers the best strategy or maybe something else entirely?
 

Cobbs

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As someone who came here to learn what those best loadouts/builds etc. are, you've done a really great job of making those hard to find. They are buried in live streams, youtube videos, and skype conversations. If there is a thread where these things are discussed, please link them for me. I've checked this thread, but it doesn't have this information in it.

Usually a forum like this actually has meaningful discussions about these sorts of things on the forum. So far, all I have found is anecdotal stories and links to youtube. Shouldn't someone put together a post with meaningful data about best loadouts for different maps? or how each weapon should be used in different modes? I would love to read about these things but I can't find them. Maybe I am not trying hard enough to find it, if it is there, could you point me in the right direction?

Sorry if this just comes off as bitching, I'm just very confused about the purpose of this forum. Are you guys just patting yourselves on the back for being in a great club or are you trying to put your analyses of the game into one central location or perhaps trying to teach newcomers the best strategy or maybe something else entirely?
As a brother/sister site of Smashboards, I understand how you feel about squidboards. It, like Splatoon, needs time to grow. But that time is needed to make room for growing discourse and in-depth unraveling of the game and how it's played competitively by serious competitors who understand the game and how their opponents compete. It's important.
 

Box

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As someone who came here to learn what those best loadouts/builds etc. are, you've done a really great job of making those hard to find. They are buried in live streams, youtube videos, and skype conversations. If there is a thread where these things are discussed, please link them for me. I've checked this thread, but it doesn't have this information in it.

Usually a forum like this actually has meaningful discussions about these sorts of things on the forum. So far, all I have found is anecdotal stories and links to youtube. Shouldn't someone put together a post with meaningful data about best loadouts for different maps? or how each weapon should be used in different modes? I would love to read about these things but I can't find them. Maybe I am not trying hard enough to find it, if it is there, could you point me in the right direction?

Sorry if this just comes off as bitching, I'm just very confused about the purpose of this forum. Are you guys just patting yourselves on the back for being in a great club or are you trying to put your analyses of the game into one central location or perhaps trying to teach newcomers the best strategy or maybe something else entirely?

Don't worry about it. There's no wide consesus like Agosta suggests. I think most of the top teams agree on generic stuff but everyone differs in the details. It's also silly to say that we have it all figured out when there's over a dozen weapons that haven't been released.

The main reason discussion has a hard time happening on the forum is because the format here isn't great. You tend to have a lot of underinformed people stating their opinion loudly with no obligation to engage and concede as part of a back and forth. This can be frustrating for people who given things a lot of thought.
 

Charlight

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The core of the metagame has definitely been shaped - we have a general idea of what weapons are viable for what maps, as well as which type of weapons are effective against other types of weapons. We definitely can draw concrete conclusions on certain things, such as Turf Wars being less suited for competitive play as e.g. Splat Zones.

I'm pretty sure SS-S and Imperious 2 playing Turf War in the IoS Winners Finals was just showcasing how bad it is for competitive, this is a consensus that most higher leveled clans have reached.
 

Agosta44

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Agosta
Don't worry about it. There's no wide consesus like Agosta suggests. I think most of the top teams agree on generic stuff but everyone differs in the details. It's also silly to say that we have it all figured out when there's over a dozen weapons that haven't been released.
There has been a widespread consensus on some of the best weapons in the game for quite a long time (ie: 96 deco, eliter, tentatek, etc). We know what we have. Are there underrated weapons? Yeah there are. Jet Squelcher and Squiffer are top tier but everyone sleeps on them.

We have access to the date files for the weapons that are unreleased. There's really nothing that jumps out as game defining that's yet to come, but of course they can have an impact on the game. Till then, splash walls and gals will have their fun.
 

Box

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There has been a widespread consensus on some of the best weapons in the game for quite a long time (ie: 96 deco, eliter, tentatek, etc). We know what we have. Are there underrated weapons? Yeah there are. Jet Squelcher and Squiffer are top tier but everyone sleeps on them.

We have access to the date files for the weapons that are unreleased. There's really nothing that jumps out as game defining that's yet to come, but of course they can have an impact on the game. Till then, splash walls and gals will have their fun.
That's quite a backpedal from saying you know all of the best weapons, loadouts, and builds.
 

Agosta44

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That's quite a backpedal from saying you know all of the best weapons, loadouts, and builds.
Where is the backpedal friend? We know them. They've been known and have been played for a long time now.
 

Box

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Where is the backpedal friend? We know them. They've been known and have been played for a long time now.
How can you say that the only thing left to do is break the game when you admit there are weapons being slept on?
 

Agosta44

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That's up to peoples preferences and if they decide to switch to something else. Until then they're anti-meta.
 

Box

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How can the meta be the same both before and after people start using these under appreciated weapons?
 

Agosta44

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Metagames evolve and adapt. Go look at any other popular game if you think that they're stagnant forever. You seem more intent on arguing semantics while I'm a person that talks in hyperbole so keep that in mind before you respond.
 

Box

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I mean that's fine. I don't have any problem with how you talk. I'm just not sure how we got from what sounded like 'We have pretty much everything figured out already' to 'The metagame will change and evolve over time' to paraphrase. Let me know if I got something wrong but that second statement seems to suggest there's to come that we can't exactly foresee right now.
 

Agosta44

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I'll be more precise about what I had previously said.

We have a very strong understanding of the best weapons, the best weapon loadouts, and the best abilities for those weapons (personal preference does apply and weapons allow flexability).

We have a strong understanding on how maps are played in SZ and TC (RM has not been out long enough to determine strong strategies, if it's even viable, but we know it has glaring problems).

Do we know if the weapons yet to be released will make a major impact on the meta that has already developed? No, but we can make educated guesses.

We are now at a point in the games life where people are spending more time trying to abuse the games mechanics/boundaries/etc instead of spending time theory crafting.
 

Box

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Well maybe we can hash out what we do know. I got the impression that Tim was looking for a tier list or one of those set guides or whatever for the viable weapons. I don't know if we're really at that point yet.
 

Hope

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I'm sorry to bring this up, but is that all I can expect from this thread? Discussing the youth of a new game's metagame is a very ordinary and normal topic. If it's not to be admitted to, then I guess an honest discussion can't happen. In every competitive scene I've been a part of, quality discourse has mattered every single time. It's made not only a big difference, but a defining difference in the growth of a game's competitive scene.

I understand we're all big fans of Splatoon, if there's another place to discuss topics like these then I'd appreciate a link. Apologies if this isn't the ideal place to discuss this sort of stuff in depth. Cheers! :) Keep on splatting, squids!
Well there's a difference between talking about the meta game for the ranked modes, and the one for turf war. Most teams aren't even trying to get ahead of the ranked meta or even realize there is one, so it's not really going to go anywhere soon aside from matches between like 3 teams. But I think most people were referring to turf when they were saying stuff since it's meta has been stagnant from day 3. I remember a few days after the game came out and imperious lounge played turf to win in the last moments, now a few months later it is still played the same way and there is no foreseeable way (outside major rule changes) to fix this. People who have played turf for this long they see this, which is why you are getting all these one word responses because it seems very obvious that turf will always have the same "anti competitive" meta.

Hope this helped. (no pun intended) Also @Tim H. (or anyone really) if you have any questions about meta stuff or weapons or w/e feel free to pm me I don't bite. xd
 
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Cobbs

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Where is the backpedal friend? We know them. They've been known and have been played for a long time now.
That's like an early tier list in Smash or any other fighter. We can't be shortsighted and develop a feeling that "we've got this", such a thing is what separates the games that make it and those that don't when it comes to having a healthy and mature competitive scene and playerbase.

But to be honest, Splatoon could easily just be about online skirmishes and not really have a solid competitive scene that perseveres through the years, like the majority of shooters. It's not a bad future - Splatoon would still be a great experience for all of us to enjoy together. It doesn't 'need' a healthy competitive scene or people really taking things seriously the way you find in the healthy competitive games.

Having a healthy and devoted competitive community live for a game is very different than not. It's a unique privilege few games have, and even fewer have for a long time. And it's because it depends heavily on the community and the kind it shapes itself to be.

How much of us really live for competitive Splatoon the same way tournament Smashers, for example, do? How many of us are really treating it the way many competitive games are treated by their pro players? How seriously do we take the natural flux of strat-counterstrat metagame development and ongoing training required for competitive ever-evolving play?
It's impossible to not acknowledge the youth of this community & forum, and how much growth is yet to come. Thinking we're anywhere ahead of where we are is a crippling misstep.
 
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