a

[binx]

That's the one and only thing the devs have been very very clear about from the beginning: "playstyle" has been the cornerstone of their matchmaking. They have never defined what they mean by "playstyle" of course, only that even through the 2.6 patch notes with the Splatfest rules changes, the word "playstyle" was used again in the context that it will rely less on playstyle and more on rank & fes power. Most of us assumed early they meant "inkers" versus "killers" in a TW context - but I suspect it's a lot more nuanced than that, as "inkers" doesn't really apply as a role in ranked at all. Well recently for me it does since going inkbrush to compensate for my teams inability to paint anything, but that's a different issue. :)

So if we assume "inkers" isn't a valid sorting style for ranked, then we can assumed "support" "aggressor" "carrier" etc all might be.



I haven't seen a HUGE amount of 20 second ko's but you're right, I have seen multiple. Once in TC and several times in RM, where nobody even NOTICED the objective was moving. One the other day I was running inkbrush, my team rushed to pop the bubble, so I ran ahead to ink a trail for them as the "designated inker". Instead I see the objective heading toward our base....I kept inking for a moment thinking "oh the enemy grabbed it first, but my team will get it back fast and turn it around, I need to make sure they have a path" I looked at my map and nobody on my team is anywhere near the RM. So I'm deep on the other side of the warehouse, riding/rolling my brush right behind the RM carrier chasing after him up the hallway....too slow! I SJ to the spawn to try to head him off...not fast enough. ko. I didn't even SEE another teammate this whole time. They were off in the corners doing whatever. That is not the first time a similar scenario has played out.

Generally eliters are very good in ranked, IF the team is not all "support minded" and hoping "someone else" will push the objective. But if you're playing defensively with eliter you can splat the whole enemy team again and again and you're team will still lose if nobody else ever USES that cover to push. That's what was happening to me the other day, and even switching to brushes couldn't salvage the group of players that day. That said, an aggressive eliter isn't always a bad thing in ranked. I tend to play it very aggressively, or, specifically I main Custom and use my beacons to alternate between "perch sniping" and being more aggressive on the ground. I don't mind pushing the tower as an eliter, especially with Custom as I try to save my kraken just for that purpose. I try to wait until the objective is sufficiently forward to justify using it, or if we're failing to keep it back as a defensive measure. If nobody is having success pushing it I'll use it just to get it moving at all to start momentum. BUT all of that works fine and dandy when squadding in higher tier games with S/S+ players. When playing with teammates will simply not push, it is as you describe, you give up defensive cover and the actual sniping role on the team to instead play aggro with a weapon that is ill suited for playing aggro. Aggressive eliters are a thing of beauty. I've noticed most of the best S+ eliters I've come across, particularly Japanese S+ eliters, are aggressive, down on the ground, in odd places, and very offensive. The most impressive was the one sniping at us from the perch IN OUR OWN BASE! :) But what happens with bad teammates like you describe is you start actually using the eliter like a midrange shooter, running headlong into enemy ink, trying to lead an offensive direct into 4 opponents....and that's just a bad habit to get into. Worse, while you keep getting splatted there's no defensive cover. I switch weapons when that happens, but in rotations like that other day that's unfortunate, because my sniping was playing a vital role that was missed without it, but the team did not use it.



Yes, I tend to play that way with getting a lead and then trying to defend it, though I do so only if the lead is sufficiently wide that I think the inevitable incremental pushing in the remaining time is unlikely to catch up to said lead. If it's a lead of 10 or so it's too risky to try defending it. If it's a lead of 40-60 it can be worth it. But in solo....it's inevitable, they WILL stop playing once they're in the lead, and the other team WILL turn it around. They just assume they've won. I get very tired of losing in the last minute over and over because the team didn't take defense seriously due to their huge lead. That goes double in Splatzones where there's no incoming objective to potentially tip them off and it's easy to lose track of the score. They see that huge clock on the other team's side and, worse, since those counters aren't in whole seconds, assume it's mathematically impossible for the other team to win, as I watch the 20+45 vs 90+10 clock dissolve to a loss.




While what you say is true to an extent, the patterns we're talking about aren't a pure bias of "I must have been great and everyone else isn't" - there are hard numbers to back it up in terms of the ranks assigned to each team (one team consistently assigned the higher rank players versus the other, etc.) along with k/d (questionable in value) and win ratio (as you pointed out, possibly questionable.) However the in-game score (as well as observing) tells us the most. or lets put it another way.

Lets assume that I and xxShadexx are not actually good players. We just got lucky to get as far as we have, but we're really the weakest links on our teams. Worst case assumption. Now we can assume we're not the only lucky bad players that go to our ranks. So there should be a fair chance that the other team has a similar weak link player. Therefore there should be a fair chance that despite our own weakness, our teams are in fact equal, and still have an equal chance to win at least half the time. In that scenario we would also have to assume that we are rarely either the k/d leader or the lead objective pusher.

I can also very specifically tell the difference between playing with bad players, and playing with the weaker team who is not bad. The scenarios xxShadexx is describing, I'm very familiar with. These are bad players. Or specifically players that either are less capable of fighting than their opponents, or are capable of fighting but ignore the objective. Or are completely inattentive entirely. HOWEVER, that's not the only "losing team" situation I've described. The other is when the system goes into hard mode (again I think it's when there's a bunch of alts playing - the gameplay pace, skill, tactics of the A's suddenly jump to S/S+ levels) BOTH teams are in fact GOOD teams. No bad players anywhere. My team works very well as a team keeps the battle tight and contested, and the objective goes back and forth just like I'd expect in a good S/S+ game. IT's just that the other team is even better, generally superior in combat and map utilization. Those cases are not cases where I believe any player in the game is in fact bad, or worse than me. It's just very clear that the opponent is superior in skill. Specifically one or two team members who outplay they rest of their team considerably. But even in those cases, it is far more often or not that that is the OTHER team. It is also telling on that one stray round where you get that player on your team and do win (after 4 rounds with them on the other team and them winning.)

It's also very obvious when, in the A's, the majority of the team is split A+ vs A-, and you're always on the A- side. Imagine S+ pre-2.6 when your team always had the A+s, and your opposing team was always S+'s. Imagine that was how it nearly ALWAYS sorted you, at least 70% of the time. ;) You would have to be a FAR better S+ player than any single S+ player on the the other team to compensate the difference in skill between teams. That is how I'm sorted in the A's. A- (incl. former B+) vs A+ (incl. former S.) And on the rare occasions the other team gets the A-'s, it's the player I described above....a lv19 A- who plays with the tactics of an S+ player that pretty much never loses no matter the team and is in all probability an alt. maybe even you! :D



Interesting insight on Japanese tactics. I've never (ever) heard the Japanese players accused of being passive. Normally they're blamed for being "too aggressive" :) However I've seen what you speak of and I agree about that attempted strategy at waiting to build specials and get a team wipe. And that it can be a devastatingly effective one. HOWEVER, that's also a highly risky strategy when it's not a squad with a prepared tactic. there's no guarantee your teammates have any clue what you're trying to do. There's also high risk that it goes wrong and the enemy takes advantage of the delay. I suspect it's more likely to be successful in true S+ matches where everybody can be counted on to be very solid. I also fear some lower rank players attempt to emulate what they see S+'s doing but don't understand the how and why of it. I've seen too many RM/TC matches where the tower doesn't move. Or worse, everyone races to pop the shield, and then nobody touches the RM, it just sits there, shieldless nonstop. I've tried to play the "maybe they're waiting for a strong moment" game and didn't pick it up. The result? A minute and a half into the game the enemy grabs it and runs it straight to the goal. No...my team had no strategy, they just thought the RM had cooties.




In my case, sadly, I've tried both routes. I used to main luna for TC and be the tower pusher. I got too fed up with that and stopped when I found too many rounds where my team did NOTHING. I was aggro, I was riding the tower, I was shooting everyone around FROM the tower with 18/12 and similar k/d's, I never had any escort, AND my team was not defending, so I had to race back from spawn after getting splatted off the tower, and then defend it incoming too. That's when I started to pick up support roles and observe the team more. The "do nothing" teams are just that. It's not that they're bad at pushing but can defend/escort. It's not that they focus on the objective to the detriment of defense. Is that they mostly aren't playing, or are deadly afraid of fighting (or just aren't good at it.)

Again this is in contrast to the OTHER situation that I get equally as often where the team IS good, and does push and does play and CAN splat, but is simply outplayed by what is a superior opponent, every time.

IMO I'm often very focused on what I need to accomplish, especially in the opening 30 seconds, and the weapons I play, as you see in my sig, are all very specialized and require a very deliberate setup and a lot of focus. As a result I don't often get to observe what my team is doing right in the beginning. When squadding, it has recently been pointed out to me numerous times that I apparently miss just HOW bad some of my teammates can be. There are multiple cases where I believed we were simply outplayed only to find out later we had a teammate that very literally did nothing for the first 30-60 seconds. Just hovered around spawn (or disconnected in more fair cases.) I suspect I get these "did nothing" players more often than I'm aware in solo that make for a 3v4 team. If i don't notice them in squad, I wouldn't notice them solo either.



No, actually on this topic there's a lot of S+ players that just take up the position of "just get better" without really discussing the points, so you're a breath of fresh air among S+'s :) Granted, I think you still might not have a perspective on how it really plays out since I do suspect you're one of those top-tier players that couldn't really experience the problem because your skill is way past it. ;) If you weren't like 5 hours time difference from me I'd invite you to squad to see if you could see it for yourself. The dreadful matchmaking doesn't apply to EVERYONE I squad with, but it DOES carry into squads with some people but not others. That said, it might not be apparent with you in a lobby since it wouldn't really be lopsided with an S+ on my team from the start. If you had an alt in the A's or S it would work - but you'd probably power through the match anyway. :)



Post patch it seems more likely to "win one here and there" than solid losing streaks like before. However, the trend is still a downward one. You mean even in S+ your teammates don't see the comeback coming? :(



P.S. I'd reply separately to each of you since it's easier to read, but the mods get upset and issue warnings if you post two posts back to back, so I have to have this monolithic text walls to everyone in the thread at once instead :(

I don't think I'm that strong, but I'm kinda biaised and have low self-esteem. Several guys said I was strong, but I can't stop looking at all these ****ty plays I regularly make... And well, I believe S+ is still weak, after all. So everything lies in where you put the limit between strong and the others, after all.

Well anyway. Even though I don't know big losing streaks, I know the "do nothing" teams. I have a kind of general plan for them. Actually that's the opposite of a logical plan, but I have success with it and I can explain it, so here it is: I actually do nothing much either. Basically, I wait for the end game by just defending. I make the game the closest possible, but the most important thing is *not* to have the lead. That feels stupid, but there are a lot of players (bad or good doesn't matter much) who will still try something desperate just because there are 5 seconds left. The last pushes are deadly, so I try to make it happen. Actually, it's easier to keep a game close than to try to push. You don't need to endanger yourself (or not as much), and you just go back if needed. If someone comes after you, that will be a classical example of overextending. Well anyway that's my way, and I have more wins with this than when I was trying to wipe out the whole team by myself with awesome flanks, because well... Amazing is rare.

Errr, what did I want to say again... Oh, before the last patch. Actually A+ were nowhere to be seen. I played almost exclusively with S and S+. Actually I even noticed that my first games of the day were often with 7 S, and I didn't like that (because well, the games are less understanble, and some S don't like to play with S+ either so I'd prefer S+). So I always changed lobbies when it happens, until I had several S+ with me.

Some S+ can see the come back coming, but most players are not taking the psychology into account, or underestimate what a single push can accomplish even when the whole game felt like we were overwhelming. When the time runs out, some things will definitely change. These changes make that everything that was true in the game might be wrong at the end, and so, you must be careful. But I saw several S+ (and I think this is not only S+ skill) keeping a deadly special to end the timeover, as myself. So keep faith, some players have smart habits.

PS: And, I don't have an alternative account, though I could take my wife's account to troll the A/A+ I guess, but I don't like the idea.

PPS: I finally understand what "alt" stands for, awesome!

 

[Award]

I don't think I'm that strong, but I'm kinda biaised and have low self-esteem. Several guys said I was strong, but I can't stop looking at all these ****ty plays I regularly make... And well, I believe S+ is still weak, after all. So everything lies in where you put the limit between strong and the others, after all.

LOL and every silver medalist Olympian is convinced they're not good enough.. ;) That's the nature of the VERY competitive and very good - being ALMOST perfect is as bad as being completely incompetent to such people :) Based on much of what you've described, your viewpoints and experience, and in addition the very notion that S+ is still weak to you, yeah, you're one of those top tier people :D And the experience, as a result will be tremendously different from your perspective versus even the people that keep barely getting into S+ before dropping let alone the folks who belong in lowly ranks....like A+ and S... ;)

Well anyway. Even though I don't know big losing streaks, I know the "do nothing" teams. I have a kind of general plan for them. Actually that's the opposite of a logical plan, but I have success with it and I can explain it, so here it is: I actually do nothing much either. Basically, I wait for the end game by just defending. I make the game the closest possible, but the most important thing is *not* to have the lead. That feels stupid, but there are a lot of players (bad or good doesn't matter much) who will still try something desperate just because there are 5 seconds left. The last pushes are deadly, so I try to make it happen. Actually, it's easier to keep a game close than to try to push. You don't need to endanger yourself (or not as much), and you just go back if needed. If someone comes after you, that will be a classical example of overextending. Well anyway that's my way, and I have more wins with this than when I was trying to wipe out the whole team by myself with awesome flanks, because well... Amazing is rare.

That's actually a very interesting strategy. I'll have to give that a try next time! I don't know if it will work for me, but it's worth a try! ANYTHING is worth a try with those teams! I've even tried playing Gals...ewww. :)

Errr, what did I want to say again... Oh, before the last patch. Actually A+ were nowhere to be seen. I played almost exclusively with S and S+. Actually I even noticed that my first games of the day were often with 7 S, and I didn't like that (because well, the games are less understanble, and some S don't like to play with S+ either so I'd prefer S+). So I always changed lobbies when it happens, until I had several S+ with me.

Pre-patch, in S I was generally against S+, S+, S, S with a team consisting of A+, A+, S, S or sometimes A+, S, S, S+. In A+ I would generally have a team of A+, A-, S against a team of S, S, S, A+ or some similar combination. In A I'd often get B+, B+, A+ against A, A, A-, S. Post patch it's generally A-, A-, A vs A+, A+, A+, A. And the one time I DID get an opposing team with an A- on it, that A- was definitely an alt (shadow S+!) :)

Some S+ can see the come back coming, but most players are not taking the psychology into account, or underestimate what a single push can accomplish even when the whole game felt like we were overwhelming. When the time runs out, some things will definitely change. These changes make that everything that was true in the game might be wrong at the end, and so, you must be careful. But I saw several S+ (and I think this is not only S+ skill) keeping a deadly special to end the timeover, as myself. So keep faith, some players have smart habits.

I think the horrendous matchmaker and it's personal hate for me have given me enough pessimism to look at a long lead and think "here it comes...they're gonna push and we're gonna lose..." :p I just can't accept a lead as victory because more times than not the real push happens at the end whenever there's a long lead. Though that's kind of a shame, along with your strategy above, because it causes the same problem in ranked that is in TW: "Only the last 30 seconds matter."

PS: And, I don't have an alternative account, though I could take my wife's account to troll the A/A+ I guess, but I don't like the idea.

Yeah, I'm not a fan of alt accounts. Like I mentioned in this thread, they make up a serious percentage of the problem within the ranks An S/S+ player with an alt stuck on an A- team is very unfair to the teams. Whoever gets the S/S+ alt player wins most of the time, and as far as the matchmaker knows they're "an A- so it's fair." And there are MANY alts. Despite that I am against them, I'm, for the first time ever, thinking of creating an alt now that I'm once again a few wins (ha. ha. ha.) away from getting back to S. I hate the idea of doing that and what it does to the ranks, but it would be nice to keep the "S" account as a squads-only account where I can play unfavorable matchups and 3v4s and things without worrying about rank and use the other one only for solo. *IF* it happens.... I don't trust the matchmaker. The last 3 times I was one game away from getting back to S it initiated a losing streak over 3 days back to B+! And yes, it was definitely the matchmaker, not psychology, as I just expect that result now :D

 

[jsilva]

Well first of all, I'd like to talk a bit about psychology. Not just you, it seems several players are thinking they play more with bad teams than good ones, but I still don't buy it. I give a link, hoping it's the good one (as I'm not an english native) :
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-serving_bias

That's how everyone works, even if some of us are thinking "nah it's ok, I know I'm not doing it", this is kinda impossible to be neutral about oneself.

Well. I remember you (one of you) said at one point "maybe the whole system went in easy mode", but that's not possible. It's easy for your team, not for the other one, so basically they're not in easy mode.

You all seem to know more than me how the matchmaking work, or can work in other games. I don't know that at all. But there is a thing I know. In all my games, 100% of them, there was something that never changed: I was in. It's the same for you (yes it is :p), you were in 100% of your games. I don't know how matchmakers are doing things and all, but I'm pretty sure they won't do something "100%". You won't be 100% in [a specific situation] because of the matchmaker. Well, what's my point there... I mean, when I feel something is wrong, that I lose a lot, that something specific happens, I first think it's because of me. I'm winning a lot? It's because of me. I'm losing a lot? My fault obviously. I feel it's better to take it this way. Even if it were to be wrong, at least, I can try to change what I'm doing to change the result. If I'm thinking "well, it's not my fault, game is being hard on me / I had bad teams", I feel I wouldn't try as hard. Plus, I know there are monsters that could win even with the bad teams I couldn't win with, so there must be things I still had to learn in there, so that next time, just maybe, I'll do the thing my bad team needs to go wild and strong.

About teammates being passive, not pushing and so on. I don't know how it is on other ranks but in S+ there are a lot of Japanese players. When they're on splatfest, I feel the whole playstyle changes. My thinking is, Japanese are more "passive". But actually, they are "building". Of course this is not 100%, you'll still have some Japanese players playing the objective like nothing else exist. But from my point of view, Japanese players tend to wait more for a wipe out or so to push objectives. Personnally I tend to play that way too (excepted in some configurations).

If you feel you're winning more when you play the objective, it might just mean you're strong at pushing it. For instance I'm quite bad at playing objective, because duels are not my forte. When I play objective, I'm noticed a lot more, so I have to fight more and I die a lot more (excepted for RM, as I can fight with it). And when I die, was it useful? The objective is often taken back, so it's hard to say. I prefer a good push who looks leathal than lots of pushes with lots of death. So I prefer to play objective when it's safe, and help my team by building the conditions. But maybe you're not like this. Maybe you should just experiment it: put a specific stuff (respawn and maybe stealth jump for TC for instance), take a specific weapon. You're the objective-man, you'll play it a lot. Try it and see what happens to matchmaking and victories streak, that should be interesting.

I hope I didn't sound too rude or something, because it's not my intention.

PS: About the last patch, I did see the difference for weapon balance (E-Liters in both teams and so on), but didn't notice a change my winning or losing rates or anything else. Although it's hard to say as I'm trying weapons once again... And never had losing streak (excepted for weapons I was not used to, and even with them I'd still win once here and there). And I prefer to think the winning streaks were because of me than the kind matchmaker god :p, especially when I keep my special only to prevent the awesome comeback 99% of my teammates can't see coming.

I think part of the issue here is that you haven't had the experiences we've had and haven't spent time observing what's going on.

It's pretty obvious when you're playing on the weaker team—surely you can tell that yourself?! Now imagine experiencing that for 20 or more games in a row on more than one occasion and you might start to feel like it's not as random as you first thought and start paying more attention to what's going on with the matchmaker. And then you'll be headed in the direction that others like myself are :)

Obviously we should look at our own performance since that's the only thing we can change. That's good advice. Though we're not discussing these things in the forum hoping to better the situation, rather to try and understand what's going on with the matchmaking.

 

[xXShadeXx]

I haven't seen a HUGE amount of 20 second ko's but you're right, I have seen multiple. Once in TC and several times in RM, where nobody even NOTICED the objective was moving. One the other day I was running inkbrush, my team rushed to pop the bubble, so I ran ahead to ink a trail for them as the "designated inker". Instead I see the objective heading toward our base....I kept inking for a moment thinking "oh the enemy grabbed it first, but my team will get it back fast and turn it around, I need to make sure they have a path" I looked at my map and nobody on my team is anywhere near the RM. So I'm deep on the other side of the warehouse, riding/rolling my brush right behind the RM carrier chasing after him up the hallway....too slow! I SJ to the spawn to try to head him off...not fast enough. ko. I didn't even SEE another teammate this whole time. They were off in the corners doing whatever. That is not the first time a similar scenario has played out.

Generally eliters are very good in ranked, IF the team is not all "support minded" and hoping "someone else" will push the objective. But if you're playing defensively with eliter you can splat the whole enemy team again and again and you're team will still lose if nobody else ever USES that cover to push. That's what was happening to me the other day, and even switching to brushes couldn't salvage the group of players that day. That said, an aggressive eliter isn't always a bad thing in ranked. I tend to play it very aggressively, or, specifically I main Custom and use my beacons to alternate between "perch sniping" and being more aggressive on the ground. I don't mind pushing the tower as an eliter, especially with Custom as I try to save my kraken just for that purpose. I try to wait until the objective is sufficiently forward to justify using it, or if we're failing to keep it back as a defensive measure. If nobody is having success pushing it I'll use it just to get it moving at all to start momentum. BUT all of that works fine and dandy when squadding in higher tier games with S/S+ players. When playing with teammates will simply not push, it is as you describe, you give up defensive cover and the actual sniping role on the team to instead play aggro with a weapon that is ill suited for playing aggro. Aggressive eliters are a thing of beauty. I've noticed most of the best S+ eliters I've come across, particularly Japanese S+ eliters, are aggressive, down on the ground, in odd places, and very offensive. The most impressive was the one sniping at us from the perch IN OUR OWN BASE! :) But what happens with bad teammates like you describe is you start actually using the eliter like a midrange shooter, running headlong into enemy ink, trying to lead an offensive direct into 4 opponents....and that's just a bad habit to get into. Worse, while you keep getting splatted there's no defensive cover. I switch weapons when that happens, but in rotations like that other day that's unfortunate, because my sniping was playing a vital role that was missed without it, but the team did not use it.



Yes, I tend to play that way with getting a lead and then trying to defend it, though I do so only if the lead is sufficiently wide that I think the inevitable incremental pushing in the remaining time is unlikely to catch up to said lead. If it's a lead of 10 or so it's too risky to try defending it. If it's a lead of 40-60 it can be worth it. But in solo....it's inevitable, they WILL stop playing once they're in the lead, and the other team WILL turn it around. They just assume they've won. I get very tired of losing in the last minute over and over because the team didn't take defense seriously due to their huge lead. That goes double in Splatzones where there's no incoming objective to potentially tip them off and it's easy to lose track of the score. They see that huge clock on the other team's side and, worse, since those counters aren't in whole seconds, assume it's mathematically impossible for the other team to win, as I watch the 20+45 vs 90+10 clock dissolve to a loss.

Okay, first and foremost, I have to say that these neatly typed paragraphs and such you type is hilarious. Because you take the time to be so literate and address everything, it's pretty darn amazing. I don't run into many people like this and I have to say I love it. And I don't mind the walls of text as I can chatter away myself. Not as much as you, but I can. Not to mention I enjoy reading your essays.

But back on topic. The thing with my teammates is, a rarely get the ones that don't realize the objective is moving. The problem is they seem to have a problem stopping it from moving. At least two of them will get splatted, sometimes all three before I'm able to finally knock them off whether it's via burst bombs, or just splatting them off. But their counter is usually around 40-50 before this happens. I do blame myself for not knocking them off sooner than that, but at the same time I'm busy stopping other opponents from entering our base and inking everything up. About time I'm done, the counter is at about 60 and a teammate or two may be respawning. Most of the time, at least one of them is able to knock them off the tower, which is good because at least they did it and we have a chance to try and push. I can't really complain because at least they're trying to knock them off.

If my aim isn't completely bad (as it honestly toggles between matches, I can be an ace, or I can be missing easy shots, which I hate when I do) I will go aggressive. Sure, I don't have a kraken to save me, but my aim with burst bombs are usually good enough to save me from being splatted. I perch snipe when needed, then when it's safe, I drop down and snipe from there. I could probably use something other then ninja squid to benefit me more, but for my playstyle, it helps keep me covered when I move from my sniping area, they still think I'm there, then I surprise splat them. When I first went in with the Custome E-liter, that's what I did used the kraken for, and that did save us a lot of matches. Whether we were pushing for the lead, or we couldn't knock them off the tower, it came in handy. I'm not a big fan of the kraken or beakons, but they come in handy. But I prefer my burst bombs. Echolocator is a hit or miss, but it works out for me. And despite going aggressive, I'm not that bad. My whole team had gotten splatted before and I managed to keep the opponents away from the tower with a mix of my burst bombs and sniping. I'd cut off their ink trail, then burst bomb them and splat them. I splatted 3 of them before my teammates managed to come back. I know not to go head first as burst bombs won't allow me to escape easily. So I make sure to ink a long trail, try and hold them off, but if I can't I retreat while throwing burst bombs to keep them back. If I can perch to guard, I'll do it, if I have to be on the ground, I'll do that, too. Sure, I may only take one with me before getting splatted, or sometimes two, but at least I was able to try and do something. I always keep in account the weapons they have so I know what would be the best way to try and go aggressive without getting splatted in the process.

Playing that way isn't too bad as long as, as you said, you have a decent enough lead. We usually do have about a 40 lead, but we usually always lose it in the last minute. I always expect them to just give up and stop playing when they're in the lead, but sometimes I get those teammates who want to go for the win instead and aggressively push the objective to, or near the K.O. I seem to have a better time with SZ because everyone seems more likely to push then. It's either my team, or the other team is winning, then the oppossing team has them lose control of the zone, only for them to take it back and splat everyone. That mode is the only time I see just about equal or over aggressive teammates/opponents. Everyone is skilled, but one team is superior than the other, which as I said before, I don't mind if I lose those games.

I know if I improve on my sniping more, to try and maintain a more steady aim (I play without motion controls), I'll be able to lend more support, but everyone has their off days. Not much can be done about that.

 

[MeTaGross]

Teenagers, whole different story. There are frighteningly good teenage gamers.

I agree, as I am one of these sometimes! Well, sometimes... I have matches I dominate, like in my current 4 game win streak (S 60), but others where I might be awful. Just remember that people do have on and off days, and keep that in mind for yourself! You may be good, but you might not be the best. I know this because I think I'm great sometimes, but other times I just think I'm okay. It's really hard to know how good you really are, so you can probably blame around 50% of your losses only on teammates, but there are some critical times you could have made the difference.

Keep going, never give up, and have fun while you play! Don't forget that!

 

[MeTaGross]

I'm back. I had a win streak of 6 in turf war, then lost 4 in a row before the stages changed. I looked at the players in the plaza. Their team was 3 S players, and an S+ charger. My team was me, an A-, a B-, and an S e-scope with 999999 in turf coverage, but they only had 3 splats and 2 deaths. There is definitely a matchmaking god.

 

[Award]

So, I did some experimenting. I finally created an alt account. I hate alts, I will continue to hate alts, I will continue to point out that alts are part of what is breaking the matchmaking, even if I am now a part of that problem. However it's also an eye opening experience in figuring out more about what the matchmaker can and can not know, as well as just how severe a problem alts have become.

I went into the madatory 10 levels of TW with my Jr and starter gear. I stuck with the same lobby (Yeah!) every round. At first the opponents were as scrubby as you'd expect. Through level 6 or so, I felt bad. REALLY bad reking noobs. I backed off a little, I never spawncamped (take THAT, spawncampers!) I did hold the front area of their base exists to mid of course. I focused much more on painting than killing. I still had the best k/d in the lobby just as a product of getting rid of opponents in my way and potential trouble makers. Generaly 6/0, 8/1 or so. I was avoiding shooting the poor kids. By about level 6 or 7 when the grind really kicks in, harder opponents worked their way into the lobby....lvl15's or so that were still easy enough to beat, but I had to work a lot more for it and actually start trying to splat them more often...even playing normally/aggressive to win now. The wins were mostly still big. I actually lost 2-3 rounds due to dropouts here. Before my VERY last round (only needed 30 lousy points!) to get to lvl10, the maps changed. When I re-entered the lobby, it finally understood what I was. Suddenly the lobby was filled with all level 48-50 players. It KNEW my actual skill bracket by level 10. This was my usual S-class TW battle. I won, but it was a pure fight as it would be on my main account. Before even unlocking ranked I was back to normal, or at least near normal difficulty in TW. 2-3 losses due to disconnects on my team all the way to lvl10.

Then I bought some weapons and gear (yay 1 slot gear, no snails, no extra slots, and half my main weapons being unavailable!) Zones in museum was the main round in rotation. I took inkbrush. A new addition to my real mains, thus the one I'm the most sucky with, plus it's limitations, but is indeed one of my real mains. I figured it was a relatively fair way to play C- = it's something I was intending to spend more time practicing with anyway. (I wonder if I'll EVER bother playing the campaign again to get my dynamo on my alt?)

I I play C- rank. Easy win, of course. Then the second match, a loss!? Well fair enough my team is C- after all. Another round, another win. Then another. Then it happens. I'm finding we're getting dominated. I get more aggressive...more offensive....still getting splatted. I realize it's always the same player splatting me: "iluvbobby" with a Dual Squelcher. I start realizing the amount of getting splatted going on, "iluvbobby" is another alt of equal or superior skill as myself. I continue to play full ability as though it's an A+ battle. The stat screen comes up, and I went 16/3 I believe as an A+/S alt in a C- match with a weapon that is admittedly not my best but against that grade of opponents and their skill, in zones, that's not a real limiting factor. "iluvbobby" went 27/3. Clearly, not your average C- player. And the 3 was all my splatting him. The good news, is we indeed won that match. Fortunately, I imagine the clearly A+/S alt saw an inkbrush in C- rank and was not exactly expecting it to be another alt....who is a charger/roller/brush main. ;)

But this experience has highlighted two possible theories so far in matchmaking which are not necessarily mutually exclusive. Given how fast the TW matchmaker deduced my skill level, both to ratchet me up to the harder teens (and presumptive alts) at level 6 within my starting lobby, and then FULLY deduced my skill level the first time-reentering the lobby before even unlocking ranked, it's inconclusive if it did so based purely on probability to win based on my massive win streak, or whether it tracked player data. However the fact that my first ranked match was a normal C- rank match implies TW matchmaking knowledge was not used in ranked matchmaking knowledge. However the fact that there was a high level alt in my 5th game in C- shows me that by 5 games in, shows one or both of the following possibilities is true:

1: Within 5 games in ranked, clearly not using TW matchmaking data, it deduced my skill as superior, found the nearest available player of similar skill (alt) and matched us on opposing teams. This means the matchmaker DOES know a lot more about individual player skill level, and IS able to match teams appropriately based on that knowledge. That alt player was not in the same lobby the next time around. Either the player left the lobby after intending to rek some noobs and instead found an equal match in me, or the matchmaker removed them. It did not switch them to my team creating the type of lopsided imbalances I often have to oppose. This leaves me with the question: If the matchmaker DOES know individual skill, and IS able to use that to pair equal players/teams against each other, then for what reason does it seem to intentionally pair mismatched team abilities consistently for some of us? It would indeed be intentional if it has the player data to discern. Or it could be an error if our "performance" rating is somehow "tricked" to being a higher value than it should be due to a quirk in our playstyle that unintentionally inflates the calculation. Affecting some multiplier somewhere by accident to do something we do as we play. I.E. when we're matched against obnoxious S+'s, alt or not, that are far better than us, did the matchmaking intentionally pit us against a stronger opponent, or is our own score inflated due to a defect that actually says we're the same, or superior to, that super player, thus the matchmaker THINKS it's creating a battle of equals, but what it's really doing is pitting us endlessly against hopeless odds?

2: This also highlights just how severe a problem alts have become in muddying that ranks. I've long known this to be true but thus shows just how true. Everyone, even the newbiest of noobs are all but guaranteed to escape C- in short order. It's designed that way in scoring to indicate progress, just like how you get to level 2 in a single win. For an alt, escaping C- should probably take 8 games or so. In that brief window, I already ran into another similar alt in the same rank at the same time, online at the same time. If there are so many alts that in the 8 or so games for each of us of C- I run into another alt, just how many alts are passing through C- daily at any given hour? Meaning how many are trapped in the B's and A's? How much of ALL the ranks of active players are actually made up of A+/S/S+ alts? This would explain why so much of the lower ranks tends to play like the higher ranks. Because it seems like a signification portion of the lower ranks may actually BE high ranks. It's not something I didn't know, but this puts into perspective just HOW prevalent it is. Between C-A being filled with A+/S/S+'s and A+/S/S+ being filled with scummers, is it any wonder the ranks are broken?

Okay, first and foremost, I have to say that these neatly typed paragraphs and such you type is hilarious. Because you take the time to be so literate and address everything, it's pretty darn amazing. I don't run into many people like this and I have to say I love it. And I don't mind the walls of text as I can chatter away myself. Not as much as you, but I can. Not to mention I enjoy reading your essays.

But back on topic. The thing with my teammates is, a rarely get the ones that don't realize the objective is moving. The problem is they seem to have a problem stopping it from moving. At least two of them will get splatted, sometimes all three before I'm able to finally knock them off whether it's via burst bombs, or just splatting them off. But their counter is usually around 40-50 before this happens. I do blame myself for not knocking them off sooner than that, but at the same time I'm busy stopping other opponents from entering our base and inking everything up. About time I'm done, the counter is at about 60 and a teammate or two may be respawning. Most of the time, at least one of them is able to knock them off the tower, which is good because at least they did it and we have a chance to try and push. I can't really complain because at least they're trying to knock them off.

If my aim isn't completely bad (as it honestly toggles between matches, I can be an ace, or I can be missing easy shots, which I hate when I do) I will go aggressive. Sure, I don't have a kraken to save me, but my aim with burst bombs are usually good enough to save me from being splatted. I perch snipe when needed, then when it's safe, I drop down and snipe from there. I could probably use something other then ninja squid to benefit me more, but for my playstyle, it helps keep me covered when I move from my sniping area, they still think I'm there, then I surprise splat them. When I first went in with the Custome E-liter, that's what I did used the kraken for, and that did save us a lot of matches. Whether we were pushing for the lead, or we couldn't knock them off the tower, it came in handy. I'm not a big fan of the kraken or beakons, but they come in handy. But I prefer my burst bombs. Echolocator is a hit or miss, but it works out for me. And despite going aggressive, I'm not that bad. My whole team had gotten splatted before and I managed to keep the opponents away from the tower with a mix of my burst bombs and sniping. I'd cut off their ink trail, then burst bomb them and splat them. I splatted 3 of them before my teammates managed to come back. I know not to go head first as burst bombs won't allow me to escape easily. So I make sure to ink a long trail, try and hold them off, but if I can't I retreat while throwing burst bombs to keep them back. If I can perch to guard, I'll do it, if I have to be on the ground, I'll do that, too. Sure, I may only take one with me before getting splatted, or sometimes two, but at least I was able to try and do something. I always keep in account the weapons they have so I know what would be the best way to try and go aggressive without getting splatted in the process.

Playing that way isn't too bad as long as, as you said, you have a decent enough lead. We usually do have about a 40 lead, but we usually always lose it in the last minute. I always expect them to just give up and stop playing when they're in the lead, but sometimes I get those teammates who want to go for the win instead and aggressively push the objective to, or near the K.O. I seem to have a better time with SZ because everyone seems more likely to push then. It's either my team, or the other team is winning, then the oppossing team has them lose control of the zone, only for them to take it back and splat everyone. That mode is the only time I see just about equal or over aggressive teammates/opponents. Everyone is skilled, but one team is superior than the other, which as I said before, I don't mind if I lose those games.

I know if I improve on my sniping more, to try and maintain a more steady aim (I play without motion controls), I'll be able to lend more support, but everyone has their off days. Not much can be done about that.

LOL, thanks! It's nice that not EVERYONE TL;DR's it ;)

I've had teams on both sides of that problem. The ones that don't notice it's moving because they're out thinking "gimme somethin' ta shoot at!" and the ones that try and just fail endlessly. I can't hate the ones that TRY but fail...that's the matchmakers fault for matching them against players they clearly can't fight, not a lack of their efforts in the game. It's frustrating, but I still congratulate them for TRYING to play the game and not being good at it due to either being moved to a rank they don't belong in or just always being outmatched. And some of our opponents ARE so good. I can take on the S/S+ alt players because...well...I technically AM an S (screwed by the matchmaker too many times) and in squads I mostly fight S/S+....even in TW I do. So that's my real skill bracket I should be fighting and am most used to fighting. But the A- players on my team? There's no way these squiddos know how to deal with an S+, nor should they HAVE to if the matchmaker worked.

LOL, I can relate to the "good sniper/bad sniper" syndrome. I'm not even sure what the difference is. I can go into a match and nail opponents one after another. Then I can go into the next one and it seems like it takes 4 missed shots for every hit. Sometimes I think it's lag more than anything. Not sure who's lag...could be mine. But I can go rounds where I have a hard time hitting anything, then suddenly half-way through a round, I just start connecting every hit again. It's weird. But playing close weapons like inkbrush and sploosh I've come to appreciate the "microteleportations" that occur, where opponents almost imperceptibly shift 3 inches on either side. With the close weapons that's the difference between in front of you/behind you. It would be hard to see with the distance of a charger, but I'm betting the rounds where I can't hit anything there's lots of those microteleportations going on. And A few of those rounds I end up hitting an enemy when I INTENTIONALLY missed just to ink them in. Sometimes it really is me just being too jittery...but I don't think that's always it. One time, with custom, in a TW match in Pirhana I finally got sick of missing EVERYONE who went by the perch on that tower, a sploosh went down to the pit area, and I finally just jumped down, and ran down the conveyor to run him down. He was fighting me and I realized he was teleporting all OVER the place....Even up fairly close I couldn't hit him. I finally just walked up point blank and spammed ZR until he was gone :p

I don't mind losing games when everyone is skilled but one is superior. But it' gets annoying and makes me feel like examining matchmaking when almost EVERY match is that way :)

I'm back. I had a win streak of 6 in turf war, then lost 4 in a row before the stages changed. I looked at the players in the plaza. Their team was 3 S players, and an S+ charger. My team was me, an A-, a B-, and an S e-scope with 999999 in turf coverage, but they only had 3 splats and 2 deaths. There is definitely a matchmaking god.

I'm pretty sure I've had that S sniper you speak of on my team. In ranked. :D And yes, your teams seem to match mine....the other side is always the high ranked one. At least your TW experience matches mine.

 

[Floating Eyeball]

I feel small adding just a little to what you discovered, but I recently had a similar situation. My little brother wanted to link his own NNID so he wouldn't have to share, and he didn't hold back much at all in his matches. (14/2 in the first, 15/1 in the second, getting 1100+ points) He switched out his second lobby for sure (I think he switched the first one to check as well, but I can't remember), and by then, he was already playing against people in the uppers 40s and 50.

 

[jsilva]

I went into the madatory 10 levels of TW with my Jr and starter gear ... By about level 6 or 7 when the grind really kicks in, harder opponents worked their way into the lobby....lvl15's or so that were still easy enough to beat, but I had to work a lot more for it and actually start trying to splat them more often ... Before my VERY last round (only needed 30 lousy points!) to get to lvl10, the maps changed. When I re-entered the lobby, it finally understood what I was. Suddenly the lobby was filled with all level 48-50 players. It KNEW my actual skill bracket by level 10.

On my two accounts I was being matched in level 35-50 lobbies by level 4 or 6, I can't exactly remember. I know I didn't play turf for long before seeing high level players. Though I didn't do it all in one session so maybe exiting the lobby might have made the difference.

2: This also highlights just how severe a problem alts have become in muddying that ranks. I've long known this to be true but thus shows just how true. Everyone, even the newbiest of noobs are all but guaranteed to escape C- in short order. It's designed that way in scoring to indicate progress, just like how you get to level 2 in a single win. For an alt, escaping C- should probably take 8 games or so. In that brief window, I already ran into another similar alt in the same rank at the same time, online at the same time. If there are so many alts that in the 8 or so games for each of us of C- I run into another alt, just how many alts are passing through C- daily at any given hour? Meaning how many are trapped in the B's and A's? How much of ALL the ranks of active players are actually made up of A+/S/S+ alts? This would explain why so much of the lower ranks tends to play like the higher ranks. Because it seems like a signification portion of the lower ranks may actually BE high ranks. It's not something I didn't know, but this puts into perspective just HOW prevalent it is. Between C-A being filled with A+/S/S+'s and A+/S/S+ being filled with scummers, is it any wonder the ranks are broken?

You probably need more examples before drawing a definite conclusion :) I didn't start seeing really good players who were definitely alts until the B+ rank I think, and from C to S I'd say an extremely low percentage of players I could confidently say were alts.

 

[Award]

On my two accounts I was being matched in level 35-50 lobbies by level 4 or 6, I can't exactly remember. I know I didn't play turf for long before seeing high level players. Though I didn't do it all in one session so maybe exiting the lobby might have made the difference.

Exiting the lobby definitely is the key, however it seems to update ONE set of variables between matches, and ANOTHER set of variables upon exiting the lobby. In one lobby, despite tons of different players coming and going throughout all the way to the second to last game before level10, it did ratecht up to better match skill, but only by so much. Only after I finally exited the lobby and reentered did it suddenly change all the "level17" type players it had ratcheted me up to with the full 45+ suite. So it seems to update "something" every round, but only updates "big something" between lobbies.

You probably need more examples before drawing a definite conclusion :) I didn't start seeing really good players who were definitely alts until the B+ rank I think, and from C to S I'd say an extremely low percentage of players I could confidently say were alts.

Well I'm combining it with what I've seen in the solo A's on my main account. I've seen numerous definite alts in A- through A+, they they definitely seem more common on Sundays. And very likely ones in B+ (from when they were in my A lobbies in 2.5) The C's were a very obvious test without any tainted probabilities from my main account. Combine the fact that I see them FAIRLY regularly in the A's, and then 5 whole games in to a fresh C- account I already see one.... That's a pretty big sample group. Granted it may be matchmaking me with the alts because it knows I'm similar skill and is matching alts with alts. BUT why are there so many alts to match with to begin with?

 

[jsilva]

Well I'm combining it with what I've seen in the solo A's on my main account. I've seen numerous definite alts in A- through A+, they they definitely seem more common on Sundays. And very likely ones in B+ (from when they were in my A lobbies in 2.5) The C's were a very obvious test without any tainted probabilities from my main account. Combine the fact that I see them FAIRLY regularly in the A's, and then 5 whole games in to a fresh C- account I already see one.... That's a pretty big sample group. Granted it may be matchmaking me with the alts because it knows I'm similar skill and is matching alts with alts. BUT why are there so many alts to match with to begin with?

I personally find it harder to tell the alts in A and higher games. I would only accuse someone of having an alt account if they're a miracle player for the rank they're in. Like that one sniper I've mentioned before—A rank but was insanely impressive. If someone is especially good I wouldn't necessarily assume they're using an alt. It's from watching them play or play against them and see them perform repeated acts of serious skill. Some people are just excellent at splatting, even in lower ranks, but aren't necessarily great players overall. So I feel like I have to see a more holistic sampling before I'll confidently accuse an account of being an alt. Oftentimes I might think 'that dude is really good!' but not think I have enough info on their playing to say for sure. Sometimes that same dude sucks in the next game :)

 

[Award]

I personally find it harder to tell the alts in A and higher games. I would only accuse someone of having an alt account if they're a miracle player for the rank they're in. Like that one sniper I've mentioned before—A rank but was insanely impressive. If someone is especially good I wouldn't necessarily assume they're using an alt. It's from watching them play or play against them and see them perform repeated acts of serious skill. Some people are just excellent at splatting, even in lower ranks, but aren't necessarily great players overall. So I feel like I have to see a more holistic sampling before I'll confidently accuse an account of being an alt. Oftentimes I might think 'that dude is really good!' but not think I have enough info on their playing to say for sure. Sometimes that same dude sucks in the next game :)

My determinations of "that player's an alt!" generally comes more from watching the killcam after they splat me. Generally with these players I have significant amounts of time to watch them via this cam ;)

It's not so much total splats or k/d (though that can be a good indicator) so much as HOW they move. The higher tier players generally move differently. There's more spastic and purposeful dunking into the ink between movements and shots, more reflexive janking and swerving post-splat to line up the next position, ways of using the map and terrain to move and to position. Specific methods of control, map knowledge, that are generally from the higher brackets. Ways of dodging hits and deliberate offensiveness etc. I can generally tell the difference between an S alt and an S+ alt pretty easy. A+ vs S is difficult if not impossible to tell the difference sometimes largely because there's so much crossover anyway.

Now there's a caveat to alts in the A's which is I refer to them as an alt, but am aware that they could also be a main account that got screwed by the matchmaker. I.E. If I were to play you when you've been screwed down to A in a losing streak, I would declare you an alt. While not technically an alt, you're an S/S+ in actual ability playing as an A. Technically by my own definition, I'm always one of those alts as well. Which is true, and is why I can generally fare better against them than the rest of my team can. And that's kind of my point. ;)

The same description would be applied to competitive clan players that just don't play much solo ranked and thus have artificially low ranks.

I think I honed my ability in discerning the differences in the long period of time I played TW ONLY and did not touch ranked. In the lobby there's no way to know the ranks without exiting and checking the plaza, so out of interest and necessity I learned to tell the differences in subtle movements t figure out just what level of player I was dealing with. While my predicions were not ALWAYS accurate, I could pick out the S+'s 8/10 times. The S's I picked were sometimes A+'s. It was similar to guessing an alt's real rank based on play since in TW you don't know their rank until you check after, so it's no different than a room of "C+'s" and saying "guess their real rank." Occasionally you get the "B-" who I guessed to be an S+. I think it's safe to assume that was an alt ;)

 

[xXShadeXx]

On my two accounts I was being matched in level 35-50 lobbies by level 4 or 6, I can't exactly remember. I know I didn't play turf for long before seeing high level players. Though I didn't do it all in one session so maybe exiting the lobby might have made the difference.

When my younger brother finally wanted to play Splatoon, I let him do some of the story mode and test out weapons on my account before I let him make his own NNID on my Wii U. I had him beat the story mode and collect the weapon scrolls before I allowed him to play online. I didn't really pay too much attention to him but would glance over from my laptop during games, and then at the result screen to see how he was fairing. I'd give him advice and such when needed. He'd ink a decent amount, but wouldn't go overboard with the splatting (despite him being bloodthirsty in C.O.D). He would leave lobbies with too much lag, but wouldn't leave matchmaking.

Once he got to level 4, I told him to exit and go into the stores to start buying gear to help him and some of the weapons he tried out on my account. So he bought what he wanted and went back into matchmaking. All I hear is him say, "You have got to be kidding me". So I look up to see that the game has already paired him with level 40-50 accounts. I'm not gonna lie...he got creamed so hard. He would leave lobbies and the match making, only to be returned to high leveled rooms. This kid was nowhere near their levels. He'd get splatted so many times. I would've helped him out, but he plays with his vertical axis normal (I play inverted).

He's a first time Splatoon player, and his skills is quite low in this game from things that I'd see him do as well as repeated mistakes. He's not on par with the high levels, yet the game keeps pairing him up with them. When I had started playing, I was paired up with high levels once I got to like 6. The only difference is I could hold my own against them, my younger brother could not. Got so bad he hasn't touched the game since last months splatfest.

So, I did some experimenting. I finally created an alt account. I hate alts, I will continue to hate alts, I will continue to point out that alts are part of what is breaking the matchmaking, even if I am now a part of that problem. However it's also an eye opening experience in figuring out more about what the matchmaker can and can not know, as well as just how severe a problem alts have become.

I went into the madatory 10 levels of TW with my Jr and starter gear. I stuck with the same lobby (Yeah!) every round. At first the opponents were as scrubby as you'd expect. Through level 6 or so, I felt bad. REALLY bad reking noobs. I backed off a little, I never spawncamped (take THAT, spawncampers!) I did hold the front area of their base exists to mid of course. I focused much more on painting than killing. I still had the best k/d in the lobby just as a product of getting rid of opponents in my way and potential trouble makers. Generaly 6/0, 8/1 or so. I was avoiding shooting the poor kids. By about level 6 or 7 when the grind really kicks in, harder opponents worked their way into the lobby....lvl15's or so that were still easy enough to beat, but I had to work a lot more for it and actually start trying to splat them more often...even playing normally/aggressive to win now. The wins were mostly still big. I actually lost 2-3 rounds due to dropouts here. Before my VERY last round (only needed 30 lousy points!) to get to lvl10, the maps changed. When I re-entered the lobby, it finally understood what I was. Suddenly the lobby was filled with all level 48-50 players. It KNEW my actual skill bracket by level 10. This was my usual S-class TW battle. I won, but it was a pure fight as it would be on my main account. Before even unlocking ranked I was back to normal, or at least near normal difficulty in TW. 2-3 losses due to disconnects on my team all the way to lvl10.

Then I bought some weapons and gear (yay 1 slot gear, no snails, no extra slots, and half my main weapons being unavailable!) Zones in museum was the main round in rotation. I took inkbrush. A new addition to my real mains, thus the one I'm the most sucky with, plus it's limitations, but is indeed one of my real mains. I figured it was a relatively fair way to play C- = it's something I was intending to spend more time practicing with anyway. (I wonder if I'll EVER bother playing the campaign again to get my dynamo on my alt?)

I I play C- rank. Easy win, of course. Then the second match, a loss!? Well fair enough my team is C- after all. Another round, another win. Then another. Then it happens. I'm finding we're getting dominated. I get more aggressive...more offensive....still getting splatted. I realize it's always the same player splatting me: "iluvbobby" with a Dual Squelcher. I start realizing the amount of getting splatted going on, "iluvbobby" is another alt of equal or superior skill as myself. I continue to play full ability as though it's an A+ battle. The stat screen comes up, and I went 16/3 I believe as an A+/S alt in a C- match with a weapon that is admittedly not my best but against that grade of opponents and their skill, in zones, that's not a real limiting factor. "iluvbobby" went 27/3. Clearly, not your average C- player. And the 3 was all my splatting him. The good news, is we indeed won that match. Fortunately, I imagine the clearly A+/S alt saw an inkbrush in C- rank and was not exactly expecting it to be another alt....who is a charger/roller/brush main. ;)

But this experience has highlighted two possible theories so far in matchmaking which are not necessarily mutually exclusive. Given how fast the TW matchmaker deduced my skill level, both to ratchet me up to the harder teens (and presumptive alts) at level 6 within my starting lobby, and then FULLY deduced my skill level the first time-reentering the lobby before even unlocking ranked, it's inconclusive if it did so based purely on probability to win based on my massive win streak, or whether it tracked player data. However the fact that my first ranked match was a normal C- rank match implies TW matchmaking knowledge was not used in ranked matchmaking knowledge. However the fact that there was a high level alt in my 5th game in C- shows me that by 5 games in, shows one or both of the following possibilities is true:

1: Within 5 games in ranked, clearly not using TW matchmaking data, it deduced my skill as superior, found the nearest available player of similar skill (alt) and matched us on opposing teams. This means the matchmaker DOES know a lot more about individual player skill level, and IS able to match teams appropriately based on that knowledge. That alt player was not in the same lobby the next time around. Either the player left the lobby after intending to rek some noobs and instead found an equal match in me, or the matchmaker removed them. It did not switch them to my team creating the type of lopsided imbalances I often have to oppose. This leaves me with the question: If the matchmaker DOES know individual skill, and IS able to use that to pair equal players/teams against each other, then for what reason does it seem to intentionally pair mismatched team abilities consistently for some of us? It would indeed be intentional if it has the player data to discern. Or it could be an error if our "performance" rating is somehow "tricked" to being a higher value than it should be due to a quirk in our playstyle that unintentionally inflates the calculation. Affecting some multiplier somewhere by accident to do something we do as we play. I.E. when we're matched against obnoxious S+'s, alt or not, that are far better than us, did the matchmaking intentionally pit us against a stronger opponent, or is our own score inflated due to a defect that actually says we're the same, or superior to, that super player, thus the matchmaker THINKS it's creating a battle of equals, but what it's really doing is pitting us endlessly against hopeless odds?

2: This also highlights just how severe a problem alts have become in muddying that ranks. I've long known this to be true but thus shows just how true. Everyone, even the newbiest of noobs are all but guaranteed to escape C- in short order. It's designed that way in scoring to indicate progress, just like how you get to level 2 in a single win. For an alt, escaping C- should probably take 8 games or so. In that brief window, I already ran into another similar alt in the same rank at the same time, online at the same time. If there are so many alts that in the 8 or so games for each of us of C- I run into another alt, just how many alts are passing through C- daily at any given hour? Meaning how many are trapped in the B's and A's? How much of ALL the ranks of active players are actually made up of A+/S/S+ alts? This would explain why so much of the lower ranks tends to play like the higher ranks. Because it seems like a signification portion of the lower ranks may actually BE high ranks. It's not something I didn't know, but this puts into perspective just HOW prevalent it is. Between C-A being filled with A+/S/S+'s and A+/S/S+ being filled with scummers, is it any wonder the ranks are broken?





LOL, thanks! It's nice that not EVERYONE TL;DR's it ;)

I've had teams on both sides of that problem. The ones that don't notice it's moving because they're out thinking "gimme somethin' ta shoot at!" and the ones that try and just fail endlessly. I can't hate the ones that TRY but fail...that's the matchmakers fault for matching them against players they clearly can't fight, not a lack of their efforts in the game. It's frustrating, but I still congratulate them for TRYING to play the game and not being good at it due to either being moved to a rank they don't belong in or just always being outmatched. And some of our opponents ARE so good. I can take on the S/S+ alt players because...well...I technically AM an S (screwed by the matchmaker too many times) and in squads I mostly fight S/S+....even in TW I do. So that's my real skill bracket I should be fighting and am most used to fighting. But the A- players on my team? There's no way these squiddos know how to deal with an S+, nor should they HAVE to if the matchmaker worked.

LOL, I can relate to the "good sniper/bad sniper" syndrome. I'm not even sure what the difference is. I can go into a match and nail opponents one after another. Then I can go into the next one and it seems like it takes 4 missed shots for every hit. Sometimes I think it's lag more than anything. Not sure who's lag...could be mine. But I can go rounds where I have a hard time hitting anything, then suddenly half-way through a round, I just start connecting every hit again. It's weird. But playing close weapons like inkbrush and sploosh I've come to appreciate the "microteleportations" that occur, where opponents almost imperceptibly shift 3 inches on either side. With the close weapons that's the difference between in front of you/behind you. It would be hard to see with the distance of a charger, but I'm betting the rounds where I can't hit anything there's lots of those microteleportations going on. And A few of those rounds I end up hitting an enemy when I INTENTIONALLY missed just to ink them in. Sometimes it really is me just being too jittery...but I don't think that's always it. One time, with custom, in a TW match in Pirhana I finally got sick of missing EVERYONE who went by the perch on that tower, a sploosh went down to the pit area, and I finally just jumped down, and ran down the conveyor to run him down. He was fighting me and I realized he was teleporting all OVER the place....Even up fairly close I couldn't hit him. I finally just walked up point blank and spammed ZR until he was gone :p

I don't mind losing games when everyone is skilled but one is superior. But it' gets annoying and makes me feel like examining matchmaking when almost EVERY match is that way :)

You're bound to miss important details in TL;DR, so I don't skim.

But all that from your alt seems to be very interesting insight. But I agree with Jsilva that we may need more evidence/examples before concluding anything. Though the two possibilities is quite likely to be what's happening here.

I don't exactly check the squids I play with in TW, but the times I do, most of them Are A to S+ rank. I fair fine when going against them and manage to hold my own with them. I actually find those matches to be quite fun. But you're right there. They may not exactly know how to handle players in S to S+ skill. And with a lot of people running alts who are S to S+ level (not pointing fingers at anyone, just there's bound to be lots of alts), or who aren't alts but play at an S to S+ level, will make it troublesome as a lot may not know how to deal with them. I won't blame them for not being able to. All I care about is if they can actually manage to at least try.

True true with the whole microtelorportation, though. That could be the issue with me, but I won't lie and pin it on lag all the time. A lot of times, I'm just being bad at sniping. But if I have to chase them down with burst bombs and I see them teleporting...then yeah now I know why a lot of my shots didn't hit them at all. I just have to learn to try and keep a steadier hand, though. But I can only tell if people are teleporting when I'm not an E-liter as I just throw burst bombs to get rid of them. But If I'm using my Deco Slosher, a roller, or splat/kelp charger (I use those like mid-range shooters), then I'll be able to tell if they are.

And yeah, tell me about it. I'd examine it as well, but I'm far too lazy to even go and attempt it. As I'd have to start back from step one with creating an alt to close examine things and go back to unlocking weapons and gear...not to mention having to go through the pain and struggle of laggy C rank rooms. But maybe one day when I'm not so lazy, I'll give it a try.

And by the end of this discussion, I'm sure I'll be typing just a bit more than usual because of you. Thanks for bringing the writer/examiner out in me, Award. As if I wasn't sick of typing and examining things enough. =w=;

 

[jsilva]

My determinations of "that player's an alt!" generally comes more from watching the killcam after they splat me. Generally with these players I have significant amounts of time to watch them via this cam ;)

Ok :) I'm not usually watching the players with the kill cam. I usually spend the downtime assessing what's going on in the game with the map on the controller. I rarely watch the dude who splatted me for more than a moment, sometimes to see his/her kit.

 

[jsilva]

Once he got to level 4, I told him to exit and go into the stores to start buying gear to help him and some of the weapons he tried out on my account. So he bought what he wanted and went back into matchmaking. All I hear is him say, "You have got to be kidding me". So I look up to see that the game has already paired him with level 40-50 accounts. I'm not gonna lie...he got creamed so hard. He would leave lobbies and the match making, only to be returned to high leveled rooms. This kid was nowhere near their levels. He'd get splatted so many times. I would've helped him out, but he plays with his vertical axis normal (I play inverted).

He's a first time Splatoon player, and his skills is quite low in this game from things that I'd see him do as well as repeated mistakes. He's not on par with the high levels, yet the game keeps pairing him up with them. When I had started playing, I was paired up with high levels once I got to like 6. The only difference is I could hold my own against them, my younger brother could not. Got so bad he hasn't touched the game since last months splatfest.

That's really surprising! I wonder if he has certain positive abilities the game measures and it's incorrectly assessing him. On my accounts, particularly the second one, I wasn't splatting other players much. I'd deliberately avoid newbies and only splat if I had to. I figured at that point that it uses fairly sophisticated metrics to determine skill, but it likely messes up and your brother is probably an example of that.

 

[Flareth]

Within 5 games in ranked, clearly not using TW matchmaking data, it deduced my skill as superior, found the nearest available player of similar skill (alt) and matched us on opposing teams. This means the matchmaker DOES know a lot more about individual player skill level, and IS able to match teams appropriately based on that knowledge.

Now while I can remember the discourses on matchmaking between you and BlackZero, I can't remember the outcome of it all. So to avoid us digging way back into those threads (no offense mate!), I must ask: does this further reinforce your conclusions, or does it throw a wrench into everything?

And I've never really paid much attention to the effects of alts. I guess it isn't really fair to newer players, to have them get crushed by supersquids in disguise. But how do you determine when someone's an alt? Is it just that they're playing far better than others in the same level/rank?

 

[MeTaGross]

One way to tell if someone is an alt is comparing their level and rank. I have reset files several times and I can give a few ranks with levels.

C-/C – 10/11 <> C+ – 11/12 <> B- – 12/13 <> B – 14 <> B+ – 15 <> A- – 16/17 <> A – 18/19 <> A+ – 19/20

It might not be that way at the lower ranks, but if you find an A- at level 16 then they are definitely an alt. Hope this helps a little!

 

[Deleted Member]

That is some 5-year old! :) Lol I have a friend with a 5-year old and can't even imagine her gaming to that caliber (she is a casual gamer herself). Gaming must be in his genes! Haha. ;)

 

[binx]

So, I did some experimenting. I finally created an alt account. I hate alts, I will continue to hate alts, I will continue to point out that alts are part of what is breaking the matchmaking, even if I am now a part of that problem. However it's also an eye opening experience in figuring out more about what the matchmaker can and can not know, as well as just how severe a problem alts have become.

I went into the madatory 10 levels of TW with my Jr and starter gear. I stuck with the same lobby (Yeah!) every round. At first the opponents were as scrubby as you'd expect. Through level 6 or so, I felt bad. REALLY bad reking noobs. I backed off a little, I never spawncamped (take THAT, spawncampers!) I did hold the front area of their base exists to mid of course. I focused much more on painting than killing. I still had the best k/d in the lobby just as a product of getting rid of opponents in my way and potential trouble makers. Generaly 6/0, 8/1 or so. I was avoiding shooting the poor kids. By about level 6 or 7 when the grind really kicks in, harder opponents worked their way into the lobby....lvl15's or so that were still easy enough to beat, but I had to work a lot more for it and actually start trying to splat them more often...even playing normally/aggressive to win now. The wins were mostly still big. I actually lost 2-3 rounds due to dropouts here. Before my VERY last round (only needed 30 lousy points!) to get to lvl10, the maps changed. When I re-entered the lobby, it finally understood what I was. Suddenly the lobby was filled with all level 48-50 players. It KNEW my actual skill bracket by level 10. This was my usual S-class TW battle. I won, but it was a pure fight as it would be on my main account. Before even unlocking ranked I was back to normal, or at least near normal difficulty in TW. 2-3 losses due to disconnects on my team all the way to lvl10.

Then I bought some weapons and gear (yay 1 slot gear, no snails, no extra slots, and half my main weapons being unavailable!) Zones in museum was the main round in rotation. I took inkbrush. A new addition to my real mains, thus the one I'm the most sucky with, plus it's limitations, but is indeed one of my real mains. I figured it was a relatively fair way to play C- = it's something I was intending to spend more time practicing with anyway. (I wonder if I'll EVER bother playing the campaign again to get my dynamo on my alt?)

I I play C- rank. Easy win, of course. Then the second match, a loss!? Well fair enough my team is C- after all. Another round, another win. Then another. Then it happens. I'm finding we're getting dominated. I get more aggressive...more offensive....still getting splatted. I realize it's always the same player splatting me: "iluvbobby" with a Dual Squelcher. I start realizing the amount of getting splatted going on, "iluvbobby" is another alt of equal or superior skill as myself. I continue to play full ability as though it's an A+ battle. The stat screen comes up, and I went 16/3 I believe as an A+/S alt in a C- match with a weapon that is admittedly not my best but against that grade of opponents and their skill, in zones, that's not a real limiting factor. "iluvbobby" went 27/3. Clearly, not your average C- player. And the 3 was all my splatting him. The good news, is we indeed won that match. Fortunately, I imagine the clearly A+/S alt saw an inkbrush in C- rank and was not exactly expecting it to be another alt....who is a charger/roller/brush main. ;)

But this experience has highlighted two possible theories so far in matchmaking which are not necessarily mutually exclusive. Given how fast the TW matchmaker deduced my skill level, both to ratchet me up to the harder teens (and presumptive alts) at level 6 within my starting lobby, and then FULLY deduced my skill level the first time-reentering the lobby before even unlocking ranked, it's inconclusive if it did so based purely on probability to win based on my massive win streak, or whether it tracked player data. However the fact that my first ranked match was a normal C- rank match implies TW matchmaking knowledge was not used in ranked matchmaking knowledge. However the fact that there was a high level alt in my 5th game in C- shows me that by 5 games in, shows one or both of the following possibilities is true:

1: Within 5 games in ranked, clearly not using TW matchmaking data, it deduced my skill as superior, found the nearest available player of similar skill (alt) and matched us on opposing teams. This means the matchmaker DOES know a lot more about individual player skill level, and IS able to match teams appropriately based on that knowledge. That alt player was not in the same lobby the next time around. Either the player left the lobby after intending to rek some noobs and instead found an equal match in me, or the matchmaker removed them. It did not switch them to my team creating the type of lopsided imbalances I often have to oppose. This leaves me with the question: If the matchmaker DOES know individual skill, and IS able to use that to pair equal players/teams against each other, then for what reason does it seem to intentionally pair mismatched team abilities consistently for some of us? It would indeed be intentional if it has the player data to discern. Or it could be an error if our "performance" rating is somehow "tricked" to being a higher value than it should be due to a quirk in our playstyle that unintentionally inflates the calculation. Affecting some multiplier somewhere by accident to do something we do as we play. I.E. when we're matched against obnoxious S+'s, alt or not, that are far better than us, did the matchmaking intentionally pit us against a stronger opponent, or is our own score inflated due to a defect that actually says we're the same, or superior to, that super player, thus the matchmaker THINKS it's creating a battle of equals, but what it's really doing is pitting us endlessly against hopeless odds?

2: This also highlights just how severe a problem alts have become in muddying that ranks. I've long known this to be true but thus shows just how true. Everyone, even the newbiest of noobs are all but guaranteed to escape C- in short order. It's designed that way in scoring to indicate progress, just like how you get to level 2 in a single win. For an alt, escaping C- should probably take 8 games or so. In that brief window, I already ran into another similar alt in the same rank at the same time, online at the same time. If there are so many alts that in the 8 or so games for each of us of C- I run into another alt, just how many alts are passing through C- daily at any given hour? Meaning how many are trapped in the B's and A's? How much of ALL the ranks of active players are actually made up of A+/S/S+ alts? This would explain why so much of the lower ranks tends to play like the higher ranks. Because it seems like a signification portion of the lower ranks may actually BE high ranks. It's not something I didn't know, but this puts into perspective just HOW prevalent it is. Between C-A being filled with A+/S/S+'s and A+/S/S+ being filled with scummers, is it any wonder the ranks are broken?

Before saying anything, I'd like to say that everyone tends to see some reason or logic in random, while there is none. Human's biais again. (Though it's not real random in games...)

But well this is indeed interesting, I have not much to say, as I don't have alt account (I don't like it either), but... Are you saying some A/S/S+ guys are making an account just to play against C-? This is boring as hell. I mean, ok I can understand someone playing let's say, maximum one hour of this, because he finds it fun to destroy new players and probably has some complex about a part of his body or a problem in his brain. But more?! Are you saying they are saving their rank at C- just to stay there? Because obviously, they're not playing to lose, so they should rank up too fast to stay there.

But then:

When my younger brother finally wanted to play Splatoon, I let him do some of the story mode and test out weapons on my account before I let him make his own NNID on my Wii U. I had him beat the story mode and collect the weapon scrolls before I allowed him to play online. I didn't really pay too much attention to him but would glance over from my laptop during games, and then at the result screen to see how he was fairing. I'd give him advice and such when needed. He'd ink a decent amount, but wouldn't go overboard with the splatting (despite him being bloodthirsty in C.O.D). He would leave lobbies with too much lag, but wouldn't leave matchmaking.

Once he got to level 4, I told him to exit and go into the stores to start buying gear to help him and some of the weapons he tried out on my account. So he bought what he wanted and went back into matchmaking. All I hear is him say, "You have got to be kidding me". So I look up to see that the game has already paired him with level 40-50 accounts. I'm not gonna lie...he got creamed so hard. He would leave lobbies and the match making, only to be returned to high leveled rooms. This kid was nowhere near their levels. He'd get splatted so many times. I would've helped him out, but he plays with his vertical axis normal (I play inverted).

Seems like we can't tell the matchmaker is so advanced yet, can we? (Yes, I'm writing the post gradually as I read the answers of everyone.)

Hmmm anyway. I'd like to say that there are probably not as many new players now than 3 month ago (Christmas) and 6 months ago, 9 months ago... Basically the game sells better at first and Christmas, as usual.

From my point of view, I'd say the matchmaker works like this:
"You're under level 4? There, play with some noobs like you are."
"You're above level 4 now? Well, play with everyone, I don't care anymore."

And as there are probably way more level 30+ than 30- ('cuz the game sells better at first, remember?), you're mixed with high level players (but remember you can be level 50 ans still pretty weak, as you level up only by playing, not by improving (though improving makes is faster)).

 

[xXShadeXx]

Before saying anything, I'd like to say that everyone tends to see some reason or logic in random, while there is none. Human's biais again. (Though it's not real random in games...)

But well this is indeed interesting, I have not much to say, as I don't have alt account (I don't like it either), but... Are you saying some A/S/S+ guys are making an account just to play against C-? This is boring as hell. I mean, ok I can understand someone playing let's say, maximum one hour of this, because he finds it fun to destroy new players and probably has some complex about a part of his body or a problem in his brain. But more?! Are you saying they are saving their rank at C- just to stay there? Because obviously, they're not playing to lose, so they should rank up too fast to stay there.

But then:


Seems like we can't tell the matchmaker is so advanced yet, can we? (Yes, I'm writing the post gradually as I read the answers of everyone.)

Hmmm anyway. I'd like to say that there are probably not as many new players now than 3 month ago (Christmas) and 6 months ago, 9 months ago... Basically the game sells better at first and Christmas, as usual.

From my point of view, I'd say the matchmaker works like this:
"You're under level 4? There, play with some noobs like you are."
"You're above level 4 now? Well, play with everyone, I don't care anymore."

And as there are probably way more level 30+ than 30- ('cuz the game sells better at first, remember?), you're mixed with high level players (but remember you can be level 50 ans still pretty weak, as you level up only by playing, not by improving (though improving makes is faster)).

To your first paragraph about alts. I think it's moreso one of two things:

A. They run out of things to do on their main account, so they create an alt for a "Fresh start of the game", so that they don't run out of things to do.

or

B. They get tired of going against opponents equal to, or greater than their skill level, so they create an alt to destroy noobs to boost their self-esteem. I know a lot of people personally who do it for this reason instead. They can go hours and hours on just destroying new players to get a laugh out of it. No matter the game. If someone comes into the lobby who are better, or equal skill to them, they leave and find a new lobby to do the same thing over again.

I personally don't see what people gain from doing it for the second reason. For one thing, you ruin the game for new or lower skilled players, and for two, you're only lessening your ability as you'll be used to easy wins. I can't stand to do this. No matter what game I'm playing, if a person is obviously lower skilled then I, I'll simply leave. I gain nothing from this.

They could simply be playing only to have fun crushing people. I would assume they'd continue to rank up, but when things become not so easy, they purposely rank back down. I don't know, as I don't do that myself. But my younger brother has a friend like that. He enjoys feeling superior to the lesser skilled players.

As for what was directed at me, that could be a possibility. I did get the game around Christmas time, and I was matched with higher levels upon reaching level 6. And he had started playing mid Feb I believe it was. So your speculation could be right, but again, it's too soon to be drawing conclusions. There could be advanced algorithms for how the game matches us, or it could just throw us in lobbies whenever it feels like it without taking anything into account. Only the devs would be able to tell us, but of course we're left wondering.

I was typing this between Splatfest battles. So I'm sorry if I missed, or misinterpreted anything you said.