CuteFish's COMPETITVE Weapon Tier List: Based on Tournaments

[SupersonicWaffle]

you still haven't explained why animation cancelling is even any good. a couple frames in a game that's so far online only is pretty meaningless.

can you go into detail why that is? because if you're not holding back on information how networking works you don't understand how games work well enough to make that statement because it should have a decent amount of edge cases online where it could potentially matter more than in a "LAN" environment and in splatoon's case pretty much the same amount.

 

[Hitzel]

can you go into detail why that is? because if you're not holding back on information how networking works you don't understand how games work well enough to make that statement because it should have a decent amount of edge cases online where it could potentially matter more than in a "LAN" environment and in splatoon's case pretty much the same amount.

I think he's just saying that saving frames isn't the biggest deal when client side hit detection means you just trade kills anyway.

 

[SupersonicWaffle]

I think he's just saying that saving frames isn't the biggest deal when client side hit detection means you just trade kills anyway.

it's important how often information is sent though, game framerate doesn't mean **** in networking, the frames you save could easily be multiplied a bunch

 

[Hitzel]

it's important how often information is sent though, game framerate doesn't mean **** in networking, the frames you save could easily be multiplied a bunch

It's more of a latency thing since this game has pure client side hit detection. If someone shoots you on their screen, packets get sent and the host usually believes it and he gets the kill. Because it takes time for the information to travel over the internet, you and your opponent can both send kill packets before the host receives them and tells you both that you are dead, resulting in a trade. Saving a few frames isn't going to change that.

That being said, a weapon that allows you to be optimal with animation cancels should still be judged by what it's capable of. Killing faster or swim strafing or anything to make you more successful in a firefight can always make the difference between life and death, even if there will be inevitable trades from time to time.

 

[SupersonicWaffle]

It's more of a latency thing since this game has pure client side hit detection. If someone shoots you on their screen, packets get sent and the host usually believes it and he gets the kill. Because it takes time for the information to travel over the internet, you and your opponent can both send kill packets before the host receives them and tells you both that you are dead, resulting in a trade. Saving a few frames isn't going to change that.

That being said, a weapon that allows you to be optimal with animation cancels should still be judged by what it's capable of. Killing faster or swim strafing or anything to make you more successful in a firefight can always make the difference between life and death, even if there will be inevitable trades from time to time.

I know exactly what you mean and I know pretty well how splatoon's netcode works I'm just saying that we don't have enough information about splatoon's networking to say that the amount of frames you save don't matter because it's online - that's a fallacy.

Latency isn't that important here because it's the rate of how often information is sent and received that dictates how useful shaving off frames is in this game. This means that if you're able to squeeze the "killshot" information into an earlier package that your opponent will have less time to get a trade. The Problem is that we don't know at which rate information is sent, it could be negligable or worth it but we don't know. This won't change between online and lan btw, splatoon for sure sends information at a fixed rate, in other games you're able to configure the client and server to send more or less depending on your connection.

Whether or not it's useful with any given weapon is for other people to decide I don't use these weapons enough.

 

[Hitzel]

I know exactly what you mean and I know pretty well how splatoon's netcode works I'm just saying that we don't have enough information about splatoon's networking to say that the amount of frames you save don't matter because it's online - that's a fallacy.

Latency isn't that important here because it's the rate of how often information is sent and received that dictates how useful shaving off frames is in this game. This means that if you're able to squeeze the "killshot" information into an earlier package that your opponent will have less time to get a trade. The Problem is that we don't know at which rate information is sent, it could be negligable or worth it but we don't know. This won't change between online and lan btw, splatoon for sure sends information at a fixed rate, in other games you're able to configure the client and server to send more or less depending on your connection.

Whether or not it's useful with any given weapon is for other people to decide I don't use these weapons enough.

I'm sure it won't be too hard to open up Wireshark and count packets over time. I don't know how much we'll learn though.

 

[Sendou]

Kind of wish you would be more open about the data used to make this list."Squid Squad Spades, The Squid Box, Guardian Gaming, and Meme Containment Unit" those are certainly clans with authority coming from the only thing that matters but I still would like to hear about their experiences regarding each weapon. As it stands what you have is nothing but an arbitary list of weapons. It's pretty funny to see "pub stomping" as a term appearing on this thread. Because that's exactly what most tournaments so far have looked like for the most part. There's not really any kind of strategy with most teams (ours included make no mistake).

I fear that lists like this are going act as a self-fulfilling prophecy. People looking to get good start favoring certain weapons not because they did the trial & error and chose the best from there but instead took the shortcut and for example put "Splatoon weapon tiers" on Google. As a result we won't have as many good players using weapons widely not considered as viable. In return we will never know how viable some weapons could be because no good players use them.

When it comes the actual list it has more questionable choices than I could list. It's not something I personally can agree with. But what's there to argue? It's not like you have even one word why the list is what it is in the OP. If there's data I'd like to see it.

 

[Ultramus]

Kind of wish you would be more open about the data used to make this list."Squid Squad Spades, The Squid Box, Guardian Gaming, and Meme Containment Unit" those are certainly clans with authority coming from the only thing that matters but I still would like to hear about their experiences regarding each weapon. As it stands what you have is nothing but an arbitary list of weapons. It's pretty funny to see "pub stomping" as a term appearing on this thread. Because that's exactly what most tournaments so far have looked like for the most part. There's not really any kind of strategy with most teams (ours included make no mistake).

I fear that lists like this are going act as a self-fulfilling prophecy. People looking to get good start favoring certain weapons not because they did the trial & error and chose the best from there but instead took the shortcut and for example put "Splatoon weapon tiers" on Google. As a result we won't have as many good players using weapons widely not considered as viable. In return we will never know how viable some weapons could be because no good players use them.

When it comes the actual list it has more questionable choices than I could list. It's not something I personally can agree with. But what's there to argue? It's not like you have even one word why the list is what it is in the OP. If there's data I'd like to see it.

There are players in these big name clans or winning teams that spend most of their time theory crafting weapons and loadouts( I would know). Good players are already trying every weapon to figure out what works and what counters what. We are doing a lot of work deciding what will translate to tournament play, and achieving success validates our decisions. Having a tier list makes those efforts accessible to a wider audience, and helps newer players to devote time to weapons that will get results.

Tier lists are useful and spark discussion and the sharing of information. Also just because the game is young doesn't mean we can't make smart calls on what is good or not. We don't need a year's worth of play to determine how echo is currently the strongest special for instance

 

[Smychavo]

Edit: got weapons mixed up.

It's interesting to see how every "S rank" weapon, barring the tentatek, has great range.

Stares at heavy splatling

 

[Sendou]

Tier lists are useful and spark discussion and the sharing of information.

Hard to agree when there's nothing there except the list. Like I said I assume there's some actual testing behind this all like you said. I would just like to see the data used to craft this list. Or was it just top teams sending a similiar list without any explanation at all? Because that'd be lame.

 

[Ultramus]

Hard to agree when there's nothing there except the list. Like I said I assume there's some actual testing behind this all like you said. I would just like to see the data used to craft this list. Or was it just top teams sending a similiar list without any explanation at all? Because that'd be lame.

As far as I'm aware, the list was pulled from matches of the selected teams that made it deep in the tournaments. I'd have to go and watch all the streams to find out exactly how the list compares to the loadouts used, but from glancing at it, it looked more or less alright, I put my opinions in my first post on this thread on what I would change.

 

[Octet]

Forgot to mention that unscoped variants are objectively worse in the vast majority of situations so just consider anything unscoped in the C rank.

Could you explain why the scoped variant is objectively better?

For me the range increase is minimal, the decreased visibility prevents you from keeping charged shots that can be useful in many situations; it's harder to do jump shots and most of all believe that a skilled player could attain the same level of accuracy without a scope.

 

[TheMH]

Could you explain why the scoped variant is objectively better?

It's all about the range. Of course you won't notice a difference between Scoped or Non-Scoped E-Liter vs Splatterscope or every other weapon, BUT you will when it comes to Non-Scoped E-Liter vs Scoped E-Liter ;)

 

[Damandatwin]

It's all about the range. Of course you won't notice a difference between Scoped or Non-Scoped E-Liter vs Splatterscope or every other weapon, BUT you will when it comes to Non-Scoped E-Liter vs Scoped E-Liter ;)

That doesn't sound like an argument for objective superiority; sounds more like the scoped version is better when you predict that their team will have an e-liter. If they don't have an e-liter than non-scoped might be better due to more visibility when aiming.

 

[Njok]

That doesn't sound like an argument for objective superiority; sounds more like the scoped version is better when you predict that their team will have an e-liter. If they don't have an e-liter than non-scoped might be better due to more visibility when aiming.

Huh isn't that like the definition of objective superiority? The scope has more range. Other than that it's the same weapon. I don't play the weapon though so perhaps I am missing something.

 

[LockeExile]

Huh isn't that like the definition of objective superiority? The scope has more range. Other than that it's the same weapon. I don't play the weapon though so perhaps I am missing something.

It also has these downsides:

[...]the decreased visibility prevents you from keeping charged shots that can be useful in many situations; it's harder to do jump shots and most of all believe that a skilled player could attain the same level of accuracy without a scope.

So when range isn't an issue then it's "objectively" inferior.

 

[Njok]

Not trolling here but care to explain that statement? It seems to me that the visibility is something that you could work around where as range just isn't.

 

[Of Moose & Men]

I want to express that you do not necessarily need a fully charged, and fully scoped E-Liter to One shot someone. With damage ups, and good accuracy, the decreased visibility is merely a fraction of what you're making it out to be. Now, yes, the fact it zooms in the way it does can be a hindrance however, if you're planning on maining or working towards making the Scoped version your main, you're going to have gear aiming towards capitalizing off that. And with enough damage up and practice, the decreased visibility is cut nearly in half.

 

[Rhode]

E-Liter can kill at about 70% charge with one Damage Up (main) and about 65% with two/three.

It's nice to be able to kill without fully charging your shot, but the fact you fired a shot without fully charging it means you didn't have enough time to fire one at full (which is guaranteed OHKO). You shouldn't really be finding yourself in a situation where you need to fire non-full shots as a charger. And if you miss or if the shot doesn't kill, you signal out your position and could cause a really big problem on almost any map.

 

[polysaw]

another (minimal) downside of scoped chargers that's probably worth mentioning is that their run speed is significantly decreased while charging.