CuteFish's COMPETITVE Weapon Tier List: Based on Tournaments

[SupaTim]

OI'm pretty sure this COMPETITIVE TIER LIST BASED ON TOURNAMENTS takes this into account, this isn't a solo queue tier list. Custom Jet Squelcher would never be the top on one of those, but it's amazing at cleaning up fights and supporting friends while zoning out enemies. You can go games without dying if you know what you are doing, and a Jet Squelcher that doesn't is constantly contributing lots of pressure across the map.

I really feel like we need to make this clear. People keep approaching this thread like "what, my favorite weapon is C tier?! You guys think it's not good!!" and honestly that just isn't what this list is about. This is what you will see if you join a squad and enter a tournament. This list will change. It is not about what is "good" but about what is "meta." Those aren't the same thing, but they aren't mutually exclusive either (and often do overlap).

I might make a weapon analysis thread in multiplayer to try to alleviate some of this...

 

[ssupermario92]

why is an additional primary weapon good? why is animation cancelling good? what makes the saving of a few frames more important than 20% of your ink (i.e. 25% from the burst replacing the ~5% from your flick/slosh/whatever)?

I would argue that an additional primary--even though bursts do not behave like this--is a bad thing. primaries have specific use cases, and if your sub weapon overlaps with those use cases, then you have a problem with the kinds of things you can accomplish..

 

[StaffofSmashing]

The reasons weapon A is not good is because weapon B is simply more versatile. Tier Lists in splatoon are based on if the weapon can beat weapon A, B, C, D, etc. in almost all instances. The Neo is this low because it needs to take up bomb range ups instead of the special charge ups the normal version has, which makes the normal better because Suction Rush is a great control tool.

 

[GameGalaxy64]

Maybe you could make a list for the best shooters, one for the best rollers, etc.

 

[flc]

pic

see edit. I mangled it somehow. what I was meaning was, if you have "two primaries", and your primaries do the same general thing, then you've got a lot of overlap between your sub and your main. having two weapons that do the same thing does not make you better at doing that one thing.

perhaps I shouldn't have even gone down that line of thought since bursts aren't primaries (in name or in how they play out) anyway

I'm not knee-jerk reacting at all. I think honestly only those of us in Squid Squad rate burst bombs as highly as i'm suggesting. I'm pulling my thoughts on them from play, the fact that you haven't ran into people using Custom Jet, Splattershot, or nozzlenose D using burst cancelling effectively surprises me more than anything. Not that it matters, you'll face it in tournament play soon enough anyways.

you still haven't explained why animation cancelling is even any good. a couple frames in a game that's so far online only is pretty meaningless.

burst combos can be and are effective. maybe there's no reason not to animation cancel. but none of this explains what makes bursts "top tier".

and now we will also have the problem of confirmation bias where anything that comes as a result of animation cancelling will be seen to be the result of animation cancelling and not whatever it actually was.

This is just bothering me. The meta can't be "wrong." The meta is just the meta. You can't "leave the meta." You can adapt to the meta and push the meta certain ways by how you adapt and what you use, but it is always going to be separate from your opinions and what your squad is doing in scrimmages. If people are using krak-ons then they are meta, despite how you feel about their overall strength. If people are using every weapon with burst bombs then burst bombs are meta. Your tech to counter the meta is NOT the meta until everyone else starts using it.

You might be right about it being unstable, or at least poorly defined right now because there doesn't seem to be an easy way to gather data about what people are using in tournaments (maybe there is, I'm not sure), but that doesn't make it "wrong."

I was referring to the discrepancy between what people think and what is actually good. The meta is, as you say, what people are using. If a lot of people are using something because they think it's the best option, but that something is not the best option (or, in the case of the krak-on, is just straight up bad), then people are using the wrong thing. in this sense, the meta most certainly can be "wrong". similar sort of thing goes for "leaving" the meta.

anyway, I think that about does it for me in this thread, gone over my 3 post quota lel

 

[Kaliafornia]

"not agreeing with the meta" is not "behind the meta". the meta is progressing quickly, which means it's almost always going to be straight up wrong at any given point in time until it stabilises. evidently, I must be one of the few people who actually acknowledges this. the meta is just now catching up to where I and many others left it months ago if it's really only now settling on burst bombs being good and krak-on being ok but not great.

what logic is there behind saying the burst bombs are the best sub in the game? people suck at dealing with them because they've only just realised that they're good. I main elitre, which you might recall has burst bombs as part of its kit. I'm pretty sure I'm decent with them, considering that I use them a great deal, though I sometimes do screw up my placement a bit and get killed as a result. but all my experience with them has led me to believe that, like the krak-on (well) before it, it's the latest in a long line of things that people have just realised are effective at something, have not learned to deal with, and are knee-jerking into saying that they're broken. at least now, people are jumping on bandwagons that make some kind of sense. that said, I've already learned quite a lot about how to deal with burst bombs, and they really don't pose that much of a threat to me anymore.

People have always sucked at dealing with them though. It's only getting super popular now since there are more weapons (customs, etc) that have them other than the E-liter and Splattershot which were the only ones for a long while. I wouldn't say burst bombs are hands down the best sub but its up there in terms of the many utilities it has for weapons like carbon, E-liter, custom squelcher. They aren't broken, but they do make you re-think how you approach weapons that aren't good close range and due to its uses for splatter hopping, assist kills, and inking immediate area for quick recovery.

krak-on can be dealt with by inking its approaches (not difficult on most maps), forcing its special, and watching the minimap every now and then for beacon placements. its oneshot kill range is dwarfed by every top tier weapon (i.e. not ttek), which makes its krakens weak at best and useless at worst, assuming it even manages to build one in the first place. its beacons can be strong on some maps--saltspray, moray, etc--but not only do other, better weapons have beacons too, but these weapons also don't have anywhere near the same kind of trouble getting in as the krak-on does. these are hard counters. you cannot do anything as a krak-on to deal with these things that I'm talking about here. you can't just use some weird old trick to get by an elitre that doesn't suck. you can't just duck and weave your way to a custom js.

I'm more than willing to entertain the possibility that I'm wrong, by the way. I'm just not about to do it on account of someone saying so.

Solo ranked, I would agree with you. But for certain maps/modes, Krak-on can be useful as a support weapon (and flanker when map isn't covered in enemy ink) for competitive squads. However -how- useful depends of course on the skill of the team as a whole. The Krak-on isn't going to carry and win head on 1v1s with weapons that out range it. It's going to need other team members to push and then it can exploit the holes and opportunities they create from there. If anything on it's own it is used as a distraction as beacons placed in annoying and hard to get to map areas make the other team either have to constantly multitask to keep an eye on them or go out of their way, away from objective, to destroy them. The Kraken would be used not to kill but to keep enemies away from objective as a defensive move or lead them on another path if they chose to pursue. Chasing them would be pointless, especially since nerf.

I definitely think there are more efficient weapons that could be used that wouldn't have such glaring weakness, however, since this tier list is based on competitive tournaments, if top placing teams have been successful using a krak-on roller in it's likely working successfully in team structures. I assumed based on the first post this tier list takes into account not only a weapon's individual weaknesses but it's compatibility and usefulness in a team structure with other top tier weapons. I don't think anyone would disagree with the weaknesses you pointed out but that isn't solely what the viability of the Krak-on is being based on.

 

[Phobos]

It isn't bad, don't worry. Now that I play it I think that it is a great weapon.

I wasn't worried! I'm not sufficiently well engaged in the 'meta' to disagree with its placement, and its limitations are very obvious to me whenever I get outraged and splatted. Its very low placement was interesting to me since I use it, but I don't disagree with it; as a Toon Link main, I'm very comfortable with the idea that the weapon I find the most fun to use is not high- (or even mid-) tier.

-EDIT-

Derp. The above should say "whenever I get outranged and splatted", rather than "outraged", but I guess it kinda works either way.

 

[Hitzel]

I want to throw out a few things:

Krak-on and CQC weapons like it definitely have an important role on teams, as most sucessful teams have one CQC "Assassin" or one CQC "Quick Respawn Spammers" and probably another person with Quick Respawn. Quick Respawn stacking is cheap as **** and I don't see the NA scene dealing with it well enough yet (by slowing the game down so that there are less deaths and more wasted quick respawn deaths overall), so writing off weapons like the Krak-on that can abuse it, at this point, isn't wise IMO. I know that FLC is trying to think more long term, but as of right now Quick Respawn abuse with weapons that are good at trading is a serious threat.

About Burst Bombs; I don't want to sound like a broken record, but timings exist that pretty much allow infinite Burst Bomb spam without running out of ink, I've gone over that already. Burst Bombs being like a second weapon doesn't mean that you have to FULLY COMMIT to using one or the other and depriving yourself of ink. Why does it have to be black and white? You constantly have both options and can use them together as a collective entity. You obviously aren't going to spam 4 of them and try shooting, but if you're swim strafing with the Splattershot or Neo Splash you will end up with enough ink to get a multikill with your gun while firing 3 or 4 Burst Bombs on top of it. Optimal play with those weapons allows for constant Burst Bomb pressure all game without worrying about ink use.

*Edit*

For example, when Yuulka and I run two Bomb Range builds together and a 96 throws up a Splash Wall, we can comfortably melt the Splash Wall with Burst Bombs far outside of the 96's range, while easily reacting to any enemies that think we're only paying attention to the Wall, or just simply killing the 96 if he chooses to stay there. We still have enough ink to handle combat in situations like that. The versatility is serious.

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

If we can sidestep the personal drama here, I think it's worth hearing the updated arguments for the Krak-On. When it came out, it was the only Kraken user and the only Beacon user. Now the Kraken has become one of if not the most prominent specials in the meta and there are a number of faster Beacon users. I feel like the meta of this weapon has changed more than any other since the start of the game. I don't play rollers so I wouldn't necessarily know: how does the Krak-On fit into the new meta?

I'm not trying to single you out here. I'm interested in hearing from anyone here about this. I'd rather hear about the Krak-On in the actual Splatoon meta rather than this metameta of who knew what weapon was good when.

As far as beakons go, sure there are other options; not many good ones... You got the Octobrush, Sploosh, Krak-On, Custom Dual Squelcher and the Custom E liter 3K. Of those, I more often see the Krak-on and sometimes the C.DS. The Octo and Sploosh lack range and can be even be walled by rollers, so no one really uses those now a days, so we can eliminate those. I rarely see the Custom E liter 3K, since echo is the preferred choice for the E liter and burst bombs are more desirable. So you're really just left with 2 good options here. So I think as far as being a good beakon user, the krak-on still fits the bill, as there isn't much viable competition. I also think, if you had to fight on a beakon, the krak-on would do the best; range aside.

I'm not really sure what you mean when you say, "faster beakon users." Do you mean more mobile?

 

[Hitzel]

I do feel that thr Custom E-Liter will have some time in the spotlight for being possibly the most optimal Quick Super Jump + Recon weapon in the game. A long range weapon that can mini-echo at any moment, is iimmune to Cold Blooded, and should be able to avoid all unnecessary death all game long is something that will raise eyebrows.

But alas, I suck with Chargers. I have the right gear rolled (8 Super Jump, 5 Damage, 2 Swim Speed, Recon, and a few variations) but I can't hit **** with a charger so someone else with good aim and a good brain is going to prove to the world that my brain child is viable =(

*Edit*

Spoiler: The Build

I've had moderate success with other weapons using 10 Super Jump + Recon, but I feel that Custom E-Liter is the true Quick Super Jump Recon weapon. The Custom Dual Squelcher is also notable because it also has Beacons to abuse the quick jumps and it has Killer Wail to use alongside Recon (I don't think the Sploosh really meshes with the playstyle, unfortunately)

 

[Kaliafornia]

I do feel that thr Custom E-Liter will have some time in the spotlight for being possibly the most optimal Quick Super Jump + Recon weapon in the game. A long range weapon that can mini-echo at any moment, is iimmune to Cold Blooded, and should be able to avoid all unnecessary death all game long is something that will raise eyebrows.

But alas, I suck with Chargers. I have the right gear rolled (8 Super Jump, 5 Damage, 2 Swim Speed, Recon, and a few variations) but I can't hit **** with a charger so someone else with good aim and a good brain is going to prove to the world that my brain child is viable =(

*Edit*

Spoiler: The Build

I've had moderate success with other weapons using 10 Super Jump + Recon, but I feel that Custom E-Liter is the true Quick Super Jump Recon weapon. The Custom Dual Squelcher is also notable because it also has Beacons to abuse the quick jumps and it has Killer Wail to use alongside Recon (I don't think the Sploosh really meshes with the playstyle, unfortunately)

It could prove useful but jumping between becons could be dangerous if there is an enemy approaching it to destroy it since you don't have any short range retaliation (unless you had kraken ready to go). Plus the quick SJ would only come in handy if your team had control of the map. Since you are in communication with your team it's not like you would be jumping in blind but it still seems very situational.

Also I only see this working on larger map rotations or maps with good cover like Moray, Triggerfish, Port, Flounder. Other maps like Blackbelly, Arrowana, Walleye, Kelp and Urchin, seems like this set up either wouldn't work as well do to the map being too small to have need to jump or poor sniping spots near mid.

Personally I could see it working better with the Duel Squelcher. As it would be more ready to defend itself if necessary in the worst case scenarios.

Also curious to the effectiveness of having both custom Eliter and Dual Squelcher. Only one of them would have the quick SJ loadout but there would be extra beacon placement.

 

[Blast]

Are you making distinctions between the regular Splat Charger/Kelp Charger and the Splatterscope/Kelp Splatterscope?

 

[Hitzel]

It could prove useful but jumping between becons could be dangerous if there is an enemy approaching it to destroy it since you don't have any short range retaliation (unless you had kraken ready to go). Plus the quick SJ would only come in handy if your team had control of the map. Since you are in communication with your team it's not like you would be jumping in blind but it still seems very situational.

Also I only see this working on larger map rotations or maps with good cover like Moray, Triggerfish, Port, Flounder. Other maps like Blackbelly, Arrowana, Walleye, Kelp and Urchin, seems like this set up either wouldn't work as well do to the map being too small to have need to jump or poor sniping spots near mid.

Personally I could see it working better with the Duel Squelcher. As it would be more ready to defend itself if necessary in the worst case scenarios.

Also curious to the effectiveness of having both custom Eliter and Dual Squelcher. Only one of them would have the quick SJ loadout but there would be extra beacon placement.

With stacked Quick Super Jump, you jump REALLY fast and the idea is to have safe Beacons or teammates to jump back to after scouting at the spawn. You've got Recon so you obviously won't be jumping to unsafe places, you generally are quick jumping away form danger, not towards it.

The entire process from tapping the jump to spawn, to seeing enemies on the minimap, to being able to snipe again takes about 5 seconds and can be really worth it. Obviously it's not going to be a big deal on some small and simple maps, but on others it makes a big difference.

If you think you can make it work with the Dualie, go for it. You can afford less damage and more quick jump to the point where you're off the ground in one second when you tap the touchscreen.

Are you making distinctions between the regular Splat Charger/Kelp Charger and the Splatterscope/Kelp Splatterscope?

Nah, he's more or less considering them the same weapon, and whichever one is better is the one that gets considered and the other ignored.

 

[Agosta44]

It could prove useful but jumping between becons could be dangerous if there is an enemy approaching it to destroy it since you don't have any short range retaliation (unless you had kraken ready to go). Plus the quick SJ would only come in handy if your team had control of the map. Since you are in communication with your team it's not like you would be jumping in blind but it still seems very situational.

Also I only see this working on larger map rotations or maps with good cover like Moray, Triggerfish, Port, Flounder. Other maps like Blackbelly, Arrowana, Walleye, Kelp and Urchin, seems like this set up either wouldn't work as well do to the map being too small to have need to jump or poor sniping spots near mid.

Personally I could see it working better with the Duel Squelcher. As it would be more ready to defend itself if necessary in the worst case scenarios.

Also curious to the effectiveness of having both custom Eliter and Dual Squelcher. Only one of them would have the quick SJ loadout but there would be extra beacon placement.

The beacon/kraken kit is meant for special abuse. You play range until you have it ready then drop on whoever is in proximity with kraken. when kraken runs out you SJ back to your perch and go back to killing/charging kraken. I've only seen the japanese use this effectively and it's pretty scary. Like you said it's more for long range maps. It's very strong on bluefin, moray, and triggerfish. International community is sleeping on this set imo but I know that burst bomb/echo is also very strong.

 

[Kaliafornia]

The beacon/kraken kit is meant for special abuse. You play range until you have it ready then drop on whoever is in proximity with kraken. when kraken runs out you SJ back to your perch and go back to killing/charging kraken. I've only seen the japanese use this effectively and it's pretty scary. Like you said it's more for long range maps. It's very strong on bluefin, moray, and triggerfish. International community is sleeping on this set imo but I know that burst bomb/echo is also very strong.

Makes sense and it is scary when an E-liter you thought had Echo busts out a Kraken. It would be crazy good if there was another beacon weapon on the team and it had 6 beacons total to jump to for ultra mobility. The one thing I would think would need to be addressed is the lack of an ink recovery up or special charge up if the goal is to abuse the special. I have a second acct. that I use to "git gud" on charger weapons and E-liter can be slower to build up special than other weapons (I know scope uses a lot of ink with slow charge up, regular could be different its been a while since I always use scope now). I would think in a average match unless the E-liter was carrying it could only get its special twice max in a game. But that might be all you need if you can wipe out the other team, once or twice to get the game tipping advantage.

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

I don't think beakon on E liter is good at all, since they usually have 1-3 places they will be on any map, at any given time. Weapons such as the E liter, do not change positions often. Beakons are better used for kits/weapons that are normally in way more places around the map.

 

[Drez]

Hmm. If your sub acts like a primary, would that not be a good thing if it also acts as a sub when you want it to? I can understand redundancy if you were trying to use it at the same time, but considering ink capacity, I think it would be better to use it depending on the situation, therefore giving you more options. The enemy may have to consider you mixing it up. Like, using it as a sub and then use your primary, and then only using the sub as a primary from long range, if that is even possible. Yet I have no experience against it or using it so I can't say much more.

 

[[EJ]_Locke]

Oh no someone disagrees with you over the neo splash placement, let's go post a sarcastic remark on the thread generalizing everyone who made the list! That's sure to make things better!

If you disagree with something on his list try logically arguing for the weapon you disagree over, rather than launching caustic spittle everywhere. If anyone thinks a weapon is in the wrong place give an actual argument for it, instead of a series of snide remarks directed at groups of players. It causes drama. adds nothing to the discussion, and clogs up the thread.

The whole point of my post is that generally, if somebody thinks something is bad, they wont change their mind. This is clear. If you look at many arguments going on here in squidboards, you generally wont see one side or another admitting opposing viewpoints may be feasible. So why bother arguing?

"Oh no someone disagrees with you over the neo splash placement, let's go post a sarcastic remark on the thread generalizing everyone who made the list! That's sure to make things better!"

Isn't that what you are doing in that post? Making a sarcastic remark? I wasn't trying to make anything better. And based on all the posts I have seen on here, the generalization I made is true.

"A series of snide remarks"? Really?

"Clogs up the thread"? Oh I am sorrry, I didn't know making a single post only one paragraph long would "clog up the thread."

And to finalize, you didnt get the point of my post. My point is that there is no use arguing. So why would I? Just to satisfy my thirst for the redemption of a weapon I like?

 

[Ultramus]

see edit. I mangled it somehow. what I was meaning was, if you have "two primaries", and your primaries do the same general thing, then you've got a lot of overlap

you still haven't explained why animation cancelling is even any good. a couple frames in a game that's so far online only is pretty meaningless.

burst combos can be and are effective. maybe there's no reason not to animation cancel. but none of this explains what makes bursts "top tier".
and now we will also have the problem of confirmation bias where anything that comes as a result of animation cancelling will be seen to be the result of animation cancelling and not whatever it actually was.

Alright, a lot to cover here, I'll try to break it down so that you understand where I'm coming from instead of just taking my word for it.

In terms of my calling it an additional primary, it definitely not about sustain, but about DPS. Burst bombs are essentially one of the highest DPS weapons in the game, and they are perfectly accurate with variable range depending on your gear. The other subs being a delayed explosion cannot function like a main weapon, not to mention their overall damage vs ink consumption is worse. Think of Burst Bombs as a really inefficient, high DPS weapon. So what does that effectively mean, well it means that you can couple high burst DPS with a weapon like the nozzlenose or splattershot that both have high sustain, that is what increases versatility, you now have two ways to approach an engagement, that isn't something you get with Splat and function bombs, at best you could hope to martyrdom with them. Second, burst bombs are behind only disruptor and point sensor in being an initiate, they have high range, AoE, and most importantly extremely low end lag. Whereas shooting blind into enemy ink with most weapons leaves you vulnerable during your ending animation phase(especially rollers and blasters) burst bombs don't have that issue, not to mention with range ups it is by far the best blind spot check in the game, forcing people out from hiding or killing them if they don't move. It gives weapons an AoE indirect fire option when they wouldn't otherwise have one. That's a huge deal on something like the Nozzlenose.

Moving onto burst cancelling, I really don't get what is so hard to understand with this one, like all PvP games, having any kind of frame advantage is something you 100% want to have. BXR, RRX, BXB, YY, all of these techniques in Halo 2 could be the difference between getting a kill and dying, and they only saved you a couple frames. Roman Cancels and Counter Assaults in Guilty Gear/BlazBlue are so potent an animation cancel that they cost a full super. In other fighters characters live and die by their frame data. For me using theDolphinNose, a burst cancel kill is the maximum DPS I can achieve, and that is very often the difference between me dying and living when someone gets in my face. There is only gain to be had through animation cancelling, and the Burst Bomb is the only Sub capable of it, that's why to me, it is the best one in the game.

 

[Box]

As far as beakons go, sure there are other options; not many good ones... You got the Octobrush, Sploosh, Krak-On, Custom Dual Squelcher and the Custom E liter 3K. Of those, I more often see the Krak-on and sometimes the C.DS. The Octo and Sploosh lack range and can be even be walled by rollers, so no one really uses those now a days, so we can eliminate those. I rarely see the Custom E liter 3K, since echo is the preferred choice for the E liter and burst bombs are more desirable. So you're really just left with 2 good options here. So I think as far as being a good beakon user, the krak-on still fits the bill, as there isn't much viable competition. I also think, if you had to fight on a beakon, the krak-on would do the best; range aside.

I'm not really sure what you mean when you say, "faster beakon users." Do you mean more mobile?

But why is the Krak-On roller itself considered viable competition for a beacon user? It feels to me like it arrived there because it came first. It arguably has the same range problems as the Octobrush and the Sploosh. It's not as pronouced but you're losing the mobility (apoligies for not being specific there) that those other weapons offer. And as you mentioned the Custom DS is a thing. It is arguably both more threatening and more mobile. That weapon is sitting at C tier.

What exactly do you need a beacon user to do that makes the Krak-On the only viable choice? My perspective has been that you want something mobile, something that can captialize on an advantage, and something that can threaten enemies that discover it on the flank. With these criteria, I don't see what makes the Krak-On a standout. It has advantages and disadvantages in each of those areas just like the Sploosh, Custom DS, and Octobrush.

I know I'm getting pretty close to theorytarding right now but I do want to talk about Beacons because I do think they're meta on a number of maps.