If this Paper Mario Wii U rumor is true, let me just say I am hyped as hell.
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Haha, I know that feeling. It was the same for LoZ U and Starfox Zero (and still is) and it's the feeling I had after playing the first Global Testfire.
Stay calm, being optimistic is okay, just don't freak out. :)
Oh yeah, totally! I forgot to mention that earlier. I actually loved how the game would end if you declined to help Merlon at the beginning of the story. :D When we saw that option to decline, we thought it wasn't legit (like in LoZ) and declined it three times (I think?) and were sent back to the game's startup screen, without any savegame, it was totally worth it! We laughed our ***** off. ^^
Also, all the references to normal Mario games and Bowser's role. I played a bit of the old RPG games (I ususally don't like turn-based games at all), so I was a bit familiar with the Paper Mario humor, but this was truly great. But still a bit raw, like the text of the Pixls you mentioned.
ILikeKirbys
Inkling Commander
Yeah, Super was rather repetitive at times gameplay-wise. I... kinda disagree with Sammer Kingdom, but that's mostly because I only remember the part where it gets erased and you visit the white emptiness. That s*** gave me chills. I would nominate that level where you had to run on a f***in' hamster wheel for money, that got annoying fast. I'm sure there are others, but I can't really recall them. The gameplay isn't really what I recall from SPM (for the most part; do wish they'd revisit the 2D-3D flipping in another platformer) so much as the characters (Dimentio primarily, since, y'know, he kills you. Very rare to see people dying in Mario games).
There's definitely room to make something great out of Super's mechanics, at least from what I recall of them. Hell, I could do it with just Mario. Which I will, because I'm in that sleepy-s***ty-theoretical-game-designer groove right now. So, here it is:
Gameplay's just standard 2D Mario platforming with some Paper flavor, for the most part. Run, jump, hammer, that sort of thing. Jumping on and hammering enemies damages them, rather than the outright kill you get in normal Mario platformers, and enemies likewise make Mario lose HP if they hit him. Some enemies can't be harmed by certain attacks, such as spiky enemies being jump-proof and airborne enemies being able to float out of hammering reach. You can tap A with good timing to perform STYLISH! actions in TTYD style, though this can leave you vulnerable to attack. The hammer can be used to pound down certain objects, like nails sticking up out of the ground.
Your 3D flip is used to go around obstacles that are insurmountable from the 2D perspective (for example, a pipe that obstructs your path in 2D can be walked around in 3D), to visit different areas of a level (for example, running down a corridor from a "foreground" area to a "background" area), and also to discover hidden paths (for example, a vertical cliff in 2D may be hiding a hidden path that can only be seen in 3D). While flipped to the 3D perspective, a meter slowly drains down, and when it is completely empty, Mario's HP will slowly drain until you return to the 2D perspective. However, you can regain the 3D meter while in 3D in a few ways. First, certain (rare, or toward the end, very expensive) items will refill some of the 3D meter when used. Second, collecting coins will slightly refill the 3D meter for each coin collected. Thirdly, hitting enemies will refill the 3D meter, with more damaging attacks refilling more meter. Fourthly, performing STYLISH! actions will give back a sizable portion of the 3D meter. However, being hurt by enemies would empty a chunk of the meter, and falling into a pit in 3D would place you back where you shifted to 3D in the 2D perspective. I envision certain areas (extra little side areas with cool stuff and hidden bosses, ideally) could only be accessed by extending your 3D time with long sequences of attacking enemies and STYLISH! actions timed so that you avoid being hit during them.
Pixls would return, and there probably wouldn't be as many. Just pare it down to the few you actually require to do stuff you normally can't, so for this, I'd have:
Thoreau: Able to grab enemies and objects from a distance so Mario can throw them at stuff. In the 3D perspective, Thoreau can be aimed in 8 directions (but not upward), as can Mario's throwing (hold whichever button throwing ends up as for a second for a stronger throw).
Boomer: Explodes a second after being placed, dealing damage to enemies not immune to explosions (there would probably be one or two of those) and breaking bombable structures. In 3D, the explosion is also 3D, allowing it to hit around Mario. Can be picked up and thrown with Thoreau after being set, which can delay the explosion for a bit (so you can carry the pixl around before tossing the explosive where you want it to be).
Thudley: Drops a heavy weight that can break certain objects and heavily damage enemies unless they are immune to jumping attacks
Dashell: Gives Mario a faster-than-running dash. Jumping during the dash retains your momentum, so you can cross gaps you normally wouldn't be able to jump over.
Some Kind of Spring Pixl: Gives Mario a double-jump in midair (by jumping off of the pixl, is how I picture it), allowing him to reach normally-inaccessible areas. The double-jump can be used again if you land on an enemy after using it (and you know I'd make at least one area where you have to do a bunch of double-jumps onto enemies. Over a bottomless pit. In 3D. And it's a long way to solid ground, so I hope you've got the STYLISH! timing down for jumps).
You'd have consumable items as well, though they'd probably just be HP and 3D recovery items, and damage-all-onscreen-enemies items with various amounts of damage and possible added effects (ie. freezing foes solid, or putting them to sleep).
If I were to add other playable characters, I'd have to have Peach, because she should be able to do stuff in some capacity in a Paper Mario game. Peach wouldn't be playable in the same sections as Mario, instead having her own sections where she explores stuff. As a result, she wouldn't be able to use Pixls. However, she would have a less damaging, floatier jump than Mario, as well as her usual floating ability, allowing her to perform more precise landings and cross long gaps Mario couldn't without assistance. The float would be reusable if you landed on an enemy. Peach would be able to use the 3D flip too, because it's not something that needs to be Mario-exclusive if they're not playable at the same time. In lieu of a hammer, Peach brings a parasol, which she swings like a golf club. It damages enemies like the hammer, but instead of being able to pound objects, it can send objects flying away from Peach, allowing you to hit faraway switches with enemies or objects. And yes, she would have a section where you essentially play platformer golf to transport an object in this fashion. And an optional, positively sadistic hidden version, because I'd totally do that.
Possibly have playable Bowser sections as well, since Bowser's Inside Story is my favorite Mario RPG and TTYD had good Bowser sections so it seems like a good idea at 1 AM. Like Peach, he gets his own, separate sections, and thus cannot use Pixls. Instead, Bowser brings to the table his heavier weight and fire breath. Bowser's jumps deal more damage tha Mario's or Peach's, and he can crush blocks that would require Thudley for Mario just by jumping on them. Fire breath would allow Bowser to attack enemies from a distance and light certain obstructions on fire. However, Bowser would have the lowest jump height of the three playable characters. This is most definitely a problem in a platformer.
But don't worry! Bowser can summon his legions to alleviate his platforming woes... By using them as stepping-stones, or having them do things he can't. Yeah, I'm using Bowser's army as a pseudo-partner mechanic of a sort, admittedly mostly because I really like partners. Bowser's spin on this, however, is that he summons his minions through a slowly-regenerating magic meter, which doesn't start regenerating until the enemies summoned with it have been used up. As for which minions would be summonable, Bowser would have...
Springboard Goomba: The standby minion. As in, he'll just stand in place until Bowser jumps on him, granting much-needed additional height to clear vertical or horizontal obstacles. Will boost Bowser airborne if he walks into one. Costs minimal magic.
Springboard Paragoomba: Flies in place until jumped on. Can be set anywhere in midair, but gives Bowser slightly less of a vertical boost than the grounded version. Must be jumped on. Costs a tiny bit more than the grounded version.
Pinball Paratroopa: A paratroopa you can aim in any direction, who then flies that way and bounces off of all objects like a pinball for a few seconds before disappearing. Can be used to hit enemies and switches. Costs some magic.
Bob-Omb: Runs forward until he hits an obstacle or enemy and explodes, damaging enemies and breaking bombable structures. Can bounce off of Springboard (Para)Goombas, be thrown by Bowser Bros, and walk on Carrier Lakitus. Costs some magic.
Bowser Bro: Picture a Hammer Bro that threw Bowsers. Now that I've terrified you, this is a Hammer Bro of sorts, except that when you touch him, he'll throw Bowser in an arc. Whether the Bowser Bro throws primarily upward, primarily forward, or somewhere between those extremes is set by the player when the Bowser Bro is created. Costs some magic.
Carrier Lakitu: A lakitu who floats either from left to right or up and down, and can hold Bowser for a bit before she is forced to dissipate, allowing Bowser to use her as a platform. Costs a sizable amount of magic, since this essentially lets Bowser create his own platforms. In a platformer.
I dunno if I'd give Bowser the 3D shift. Partially because constructing puzzles in 3D that aren't annoying seems hard, and partially because he already has the kinda-complex minions to deal with.
So, um, that's what I've got. Sorry I can't add more, but I need to go to sleep now.
Your 3D flip is used to go around obstacles that are insurmountable from the 2D perspective (for example, a pipe that obstructs your path in 2D can be walked around in 3D), to visit different areas of a level (for example, running down a corridor from a "foreground" area to a "background" area), and also to discover hidden paths (for example, a vertical cliff in 2D may be hiding a hidden path that can only be seen in 3D). While flipped to the 3D perspective, a meter slowly drains down, and when it is completely empty, Mario's HP will slowly drain until you return to the 2D perspective. However, you can regain the 3D meter while in 3D in a few ways. First, certain (rare, or toward the end, very expensive) items will refill some of the 3D meter when used. Second, collecting coins will slightly refill the 3D meter for each coin collected. Thirdly, hitting enemies will refill the 3D meter, with more damaging attacks refilling more meter. Fourthly, performing STYLISH! actions will give back a sizable portion of the 3D meter. However, being hurt by enemies would empty a chunk of the meter, and falling into a pit in 3D would place you back where you shifted to 3D in the 2D perspective. I envision certain areas (extra little side areas with cool stuff and hidden bosses, ideally) could only be accessed by extending your 3D time with long sequences of attacking enemies and STYLISH! actions timed so that you avoid being hit during them.
Pixls would return, and there probably wouldn't be as many. Just pare it down to the few you actually require to do stuff you normally can't, so for this, I'd have:
Thoreau: Able to grab enemies and objects from a distance so Mario can throw them at stuff. In the 3D perspective, Thoreau can be aimed in 8 directions (but not upward), as can Mario's throwing (hold whichever button throwing ends up as for a second for a stronger throw).
Boomer: Explodes a second after being placed, dealing damage to enemies not immune to explosions (there would probably be one or two of those) and breaking bombable structures. In 3D, the explosion is also 3D, allowing it to hit around Mario. Can be picked up and thrown with Thoreau after being set, which can delay the explosion for a bit (so you can carry the pixl around before tossing the explosive where you want it to be).
Thudley: Drops a heavy weight that can break certain objects and heavily damage enemies unless they are immune to jumping attacks
Dashell: Gives Mario a faster-than-running dash. Jumping during the dash retains your momentum, so you can cross gaps you normally wouldn't be able to jump over.
Some Kind of Spring Pixl: Gives Mario a double-jump in midair (by jumping off of the pixl, is how I picture it), allowing him to reach normally-inaccessible areas. The double-jump can be used again if you land on an enemy after using it (and you know I'd make at least one area where you have to do a bunch of double-jumps onto enemies. Over a bottomless pit. In 3D. And it's a long way to solid ground, so I hope you've got the STYLISH! timing down for jumps).
You'd have consumable items as well, though they'd probably just be HP and 3D recovery items, and damage-all-onscreen-enemies items with various amounts of damage and possible added effects (ie. freezing foes solid, or putting them to sleep).
If I were to add other playable characters, I'd have to have Peach, because she should be able to do stuff in some capacity in a Paper Mario game. Peach wouldn't be playable in the same sections as Mario, instead having her own sections where she explores stuff. As a result, she wouldn't be able to use Pixls. However, she would have a less damaging, floatier jump than Mario, as well as her usual floating ability, allowing her to perform more precise landings and cross long gaps Mario couldn't without assistance. The float would be reusable if you landed on an enemy. Peach would be able to use the 3D flip too, because it's not something that needs to be Mario-exclusive if they're not playable at the same time. In lieu of a hammer, Peach brings a parasol, which she swings like a golf club. It damages enemies like the hammer, but instead of being able to pound objects, it can send objects flying away from Peach, allowing you to hit faraway switches with enemies or objects. And yes, she would have a section where you essentially play platformer golf to transport an object in this fashion. And an optional, positively sadistic hidden version, because I'd totally do that.
Possibly have playable Bowser sections as well, since Bowser's Inside Story is my favorite Mario RPG and TTYD had good Bowser sections so it seems like a good idea at 1 AM. Like Peach, he gets his own, separate sections, and thus cannot use Pixls. Instead, Bowser brings to the table his heavier weight and fire breath. Bowser's jumps deal more damage tha Mario's or Peach's, and he can crush blocks that would require Thudley for Mario just by jumping on them. Fire breath would allow Bowser to attack enemies from a distance and light certain obstructions on fire. However, Bowser would have the lowest jump height of the three playable characters. This is most definitely a problem in a platformer.
But don't worry! Bowser can summon his legions to alleviate his platforming woes... By using them as stepping-stones, or having them do things he can't. Yeah, I'm using Bowser's army as a pseudo-partner mechanic of a sort, admittedly mostly because I really like partners. Bowser's spin on this, however, is that he summons his minions through a slowly-regenerating magic meter, which doesn't start regenerating until the enemies summoned with it have been used up. As for which minions would be summonable, Bowser would have...
Springboard Goomba: The standby minion. As in, he'll just stand in place until Bowser jumps on him, granting much-needed additional height to clear vertical or horizontal obstacles. Will boost Bowser airborne if he walks into one. Costs minimal magic.
Springboard Paragoomba: Flies in place until jumped on. Can be set anywhere in midair, but gives Bowser slightly less of a vertical boost than the grounded version. Must be jumped on. Costs a tiny bit more than the grounded version.
Pinball Paratroopa: A paratroopa you can aim in any direction, who then flies that way and bounces off of all objects like a pinball for a few seconds before disappearing. Can be used to hit enemies and switches. Costs some magic.
Bob-Omb: Runs forward until he hits an obstacle or enemy and explodes, damaging enemies and breaking bombable structures. Can bounce off of Springboard (Para)Goombas, be thrown by Bowser Bros, and walk on Carrier Lakitus. Costs some magic.
Bowser Bro: Picture a Hammer Bro that threw Bowsers. Now that I've terrified you, this is a Hammer Bro of sorts, except that when you touch him, he'll throw Bowser in an arc. Whether the Bowser Bro throws primarily upward, primarily forward, or somewhere between those extremes is set by the player when the Bowser Bro is created. Costs some magic.
Carrier Lakitu: A lakitu who floats either from left to right or up and down, and can hold Bowser for a bit before she is forced to dissipate, allowing Bowser to use her as a platform. Costs a sizable amount of magic, since this essentially lets Bowser create his own platforms. In a platformer.
I dunno if I'd give Bowser the 3D shift. Partially because constructing puzzles in 3D that aren't annoying seems hard, and partially because he already has the kinda-complex minions to deal with.
So, um, that's what I've got. Sorry I can't add more, but I need to go to sleep now.
Also, this is making me want a Paper Mario theme for Mario Maker. *sigh*
Thanks, haha.
Wow, great idea in the spoiler, I would totally play that! And I think I would still implement the 3D mechanic for Bowser even if he already has complex mechanics of his own. He could be the last character that you unlock for advanced players.
Also, Paper Mario theme for MM is something that I also wanted for quite some time now. :)
Also, Paper Mario theme for MM is something that I also wanted for quite some time now. :)
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ILikeKirbys
Inkling Commander
@Andy_Plays Indeed. The only worry I have at this point is whether you'll be able to battle when your paint runs too low. The good Paper Marios let you have a basic attack option, and if Nintendo remembers to include that, then I'm sure Color Splash will turn out well.
Although, they could have an option that uses up a turn to regenerate some of your paint, if you can't do anything without it.
I wish I could program. Or had a better computer.
Although, they could have an option that uses up a turn to regenerate some of your paint, if you can't do anything without it.
Well, now that I'm kinda rested, I had a few more thoughts...
Yeah, Bowser'd make sense as a last unlockable if you're unlocking characters, since his Super Bowser Maker-ish mechanics are probably, relatively speaking, the toughest to work with (especially in a 3D perspective; holy s***, the things I could do to people with that), though I'd pictured playing as all three in a Do Some Mario Levels > Do A Peach Level > Do A Bowser Level > Back To Mario Levels, kinda like TTYD but as a platformer. If there were a challenge mode, though (and if I were designing, there would be), I would probably put Bowser's challenges as the hardest to and final unlocks.
And the evilest challenges, because it's challenge mode and I no longer have to hold back my inner evil game designer so most people can beat the game. You will suffer through these challenges (they'll be kinda fair tho, just really hard).
Also another thought; for the story, I'd have Bowser be trying to kidnap Peach for most of the game (whether she's been kidnapped for the X00000000000000000th time or is still with Mario I can't decide, though I'd lean toward still with Mario but having her own levels he can't play) while Mario and Peach do their macguffin-collecting. Go through what appears to be the final boss while following this formula.
And then, after the curtain closes on the apparent final boss level, have a level where Bowser finally catches up to Mario, steals the macguffins you collected to power himself up, and kidnaps Peach.
And then the actual final set of levels open up. These would, of course, be Bowser-themed. Bowser's legions would be the enemies, acting like powered-up enemy versions of the minions you could summon as Bowser (for a few examples, the Springboard Goomba would be positioned beneath spikes, so you'd have to jump over him or be launched into pain, the Pinball Paratroopa is now invincible while flying around, Bob-Ombs run faster and deal ridiculous damage if they catch you in their explosions, Carrier Lakitus hold nasty things like Banzai Bill Blasters, and so on) as well as enemies you didn't have access to (Magikoopas who summon enemies for you to deal with from initially-unassailable locations, Big Bob-Ombs that walk very slowly but will detonate if they so much as run into a tiny step or another enemy and have a larger explosion than normal Bob-Ombs, Bob-Omb Bros who chuck Bob-Ombs at you, ParaSpinies who shoot spikes in 4 directions at once, and so on) and some tricky platforming feats (jumping on Paragoombas while avoiding Springboard Paragoombas over a bottomless pit in 3D, traversing small platforms over lava while dodging Pinball Paratroopas and Banzai Bills, escorting a Big Bob-Omb to a wall only it can break while manipulating the environment so it doesn't touch anything that could detonate it until it's where you need it to be, getting a Bob-Omb Bro to throw Bob-Ombs at blocks you need broken while not getting the blocks you're standing on blown up, and more) would be required. Bowser Jr. would probably show up as a miniboss here, in a giant robot that you have to climb (while it's moving and firing things at you, of course) to beat him up.
And then the final boss fight would be Bowser. He'd fight with all the abilities you had when you were controlling him (Jump, Firebreath, Minions), but cranked all the way up. His jumps would go higher and farther than they would when you controlled him and deal extraordinary damage when he landed on you. His fire breath would have a sizable start-up, but would be large enough to cover all of the ground in front of him for a few seconds, requiring jumping behind Bowser or getting very high in the air until it's over to dodge. His minions would be different than the ones you had while playing as Bowser (which kinda makes sense, since he's not trying to platform here, he's trying to kill you). He'd send Spiky Goombas charging along the ground, which would double back when Bowser's at low HP, he'd throw Bob-Ombs at you like a Bob-Omb Bro (though in a higher arc, and they'd be Big Bob-Ombs when his HP is low), he'd summon a Carrier Lakitu with a Banzai Bill Blaster to pepper you with Banzai Bills while he does other things for a while (the Banzai Bills being replaced with slow-moving ParaSpinies at low HP), and at low HP he'd summon a Magikoopa to summon enemies along with him to double the amount of enemies you're dealing with (but, to be somewhat merciful, the Magikoopa can only summon Spiky Goombas, Pinball Paratroopas, and Carrier Lakitu, and he's always on ground-level so you can attack him easily, though doing this makes Bowser summon another one shortly afterward, and if you do it a few times he'll summon two Magikoopas). Due to his power-up, you wouldn't be able to hurt Bowser with Pixls, so it's down to jumping and hammering and dodging Bowser's onslaught until you whittle down his HP (I'm not sure if I'd give Bowser mercy invincibility after you hit him; on the one hand, it might make the fight get a bit tedious, and I don't want that, but on the other hand it'd make sense since he was a player character and would have had it while you were controlling him). And after beating Bowser, the game would actually end.
As for the challenge mode I mentioned earlier, those would be platforming- and puzzle-based mini-levels for Mario, Peach and Bowser, which would be unlocked in two manners:
1) Story Progression. These would be the relatively easy (but not actually easy, they are challenges after all) challenges for each character.
2) Clearing Hidden Levels (oh yeah, there would be hidden levels, forgot to mention that. A few of them would have Bowser.). These would be the more numerous, and more difficult, challenges that require more difficult platforming and puzzles, and would also contain gimmicks and limitations (Mario has 1 HP and is stuck in 3D, Bowser has a limited amount of magic that doesn't regenerate, Peach must do platforming golf without the ability to jump, and more) you wouldn't see in the main story (though you might see a few in the hidden levels).
...Did you actually read all of that? So sorry I keep clogging up the Color Splash thread with these (spoiler tags can only help so much), I just need to put these things somewhere, and I have some trouble stopping when I write these things.
And the evilest challenges, because it's challenge mode and I no longer have to hold back my inner evil game designer so most people can beat the game. You will suffer through these challenges (they'll be kinda fair tho, just really hard).
Also another thought; for the story, I'd have Bowser be trying to kidnap Peach for most of the game (whether she's been kidnapped for the X00000000000000000th time or is still with Mario I can't decide, though I'd lean toward still with Mario but having her own levels he can't play) while Mario and Peach do their macguffin-collecting. Go through what appears to be the final boss while following this formula.
And then, after the curtain closes on the apparent final boss level, have a level where Bowser finally catches up to Mario, steals the macguffins you collected to power himself up, and kidnaps Peach.
And then the actual final set of levels open up. These would, of course, be Bowser-themed. Bowser's legions would be the enemies, acting like powered-up enemy versions of the minions you could summon as Bowser (for a few examples, the Springboard Goomba would be positioned beneath spikes, so you'd have to jump over him or be launched into pain, the Pinball Paratroopa is now invincible while flying around, Bob-Ombs run faster and deal ridiculous damage if they catch you in their explosions, Carrier Lakitus hold nasty things like Banzai Bill Blasters, and so on) as well as enemies you didn't have access to (Magikoopas who summon enemies for you to deal with from initially-unassailable locations, Big Bob-Ombs that walk very slowly but will detonate if they so much as run into a tiny step or another enemy and have a larger explosion than normal Bob-Ombs, Bob-Omb Bros who chuck Bob-Ombs at you, ParaSpinies who shoot spikes in 4 directions at once, and so on) and some tricky platforming feats (jumping on Paragoombas while avoiding Springboard Paragoombas over a bottomless pit in 3D, traversing small platforms over lava while dodging Pinball Paratroopas and Banzai Bills, escorting a Big Bob-Omb to a wall only it can break while manipulating the environment so it doesn't touch anything that could detonate it until it's where you need it to be, getting a Bob-Omb Bro to throw Bob-Ombs at blocks you need broken while not getting the blocks you're standing on blown up, and more) would be required. Bowser Jr. would probably show up as a miniboss here, in a giant robot that you have to climb (while it's moving and firing things at you, of course) to beat him up.
And then the final boss fight would be Bowser. He'd fight with all the abilities you had when you were controlling him (Jump, Firebreath, Minions), but cranked all the way up. His jumps would go higher and farther than they would when you controlled him and deal extraordinary damage when he landed on you. His fire breath would have a sizable start-up, but would be large enough to cover all of the ground in front of him for a few seconds, requiring jumping behind Bowser or getting very high in the air until it's over to dodge. His minions would be different than the ones you had while playing as Bowser (which kinda makes sense, since he's not trying to platform here, he's trying to kill you). He'd send Spiky Goombas charging along the ground, which would double back when Bowser's at low HP, he'd throw Bob-Ombs at you like a Bob-Omb Bro (though in a higher arc, and they'd be Big Bob-Ombs when his HP is low), he'd summon a Carrier Lakitu with a Banzai Bill Blaster to pepper you with Banzai Bills while he does other things for a while (the Banzai Bills being replaced with slow-moving ParaSpinies at low HP), and at low HP he'd summon a Magikoopa to summon enemies along with him to double the amount of enemies you're dealing with (but, to be somewhat merciful, the Magikoopa can only summon Spiky Goombas, Pinball Paratroopas, and Carrier Lakitu, and he's always on ground-level so you can attack him easily, though doing this makes Bowser summon another one shortly afterward, and if you do it a few times he'll summon two Magikoopas). Due to his power-up, you wouldn't be able to hurt Bowser with Pixls, so it's down to jumping and hammering and dodging Bowser's onslaught until you whittle down his HP (I'm not sure if I'd give Bowser mercy invincibility after you hit him; on the one hand, it might make the fight get a bit tedious, and I don't want that, but on the other hand it'd make sense since he was a player character and would have had it while you were controlling him). And after beating Bowser, the game would actually end.
As for the challenge mode I mentioned earlier, those would be platforming- and puzzle-based mini-levels for Mario, Peach and Bowser, which would be unlocked in two manners:
1) Story Progression. These would be the relatively easy (but not actually easy, they are challenges after all) challenges for each character.
2) Clearing Hidden Levels (oh yeah, there would be hidden levels, forgot to mention that. A few of them would have Bowser.). These would be the more numerous, and more difficult, challenges that require more difficult platforming and puzzles, and would also contain gimmicks and limitations (Mario has 1 HP and is stuck in 3D, Bowser has a limited amount of magic that doesn't regenerate, Peach must do platforming golf without the ability to jump, and more) you wouldn't see in the main story (though you might see a few in the hidden levels).
...Did you actually read all of that? So sorry I keep clogging up the Color Splash thread with these (spoiler tags can only help so much), I just need to put these things somewhere, and I have some trouble stopping when I write these things.
That and slopes, mate.
No need to apologize, I'm fine with a lot of text. :)
I just skimmed through it since I'm in a bit of a hurry, but a few comments:
It would be even more funny if Bowser and Peach would actually get to like each other over the course of the game, maybe even flirt a bit, and then at the end, Mario kidnaps Peach from Bowser. Then you have to play as Bowser and free here. This would be hilarious.
On the other hand, fighting Bowser will all his minions makes for a great end battle. How about a twist: Mario turns evil while Bowser softens up, so the minions switch sides and Bowser (who you control in the end battle) now has only Mario's mechanics and vice-versa.
The challenges also sound like a good idea. Maybe I'll elaborate later.
I just skimmed through it since I'm in a bit of a hurry, but a few comments:
It would be even more funny if Bowser and Peach would actually get to like each other over the course of the game, maybe even flirt a bit, and then at the end, Mario kidnaps Peach from Bowser. Then you have to play as Bowser and free here. This would be hilarious.
On the other hand, fighting Bowser will all his minions makes for a great end battle. How about a twist: Mario turns evil while Bowser softens up, so the minions switch sides and Bowser (who you control in the end battle) now has only Mario's mechanics and vice-versa.
The challenges also sound like a good idea. Maybe I'll elaborate later.
ILikeKirbys
Inkling Commander
Please do. I never would have thought of that, and I'm interested in where you're going with this.
And yeah, that would be rather funny. A neat twist on how Mario usually goes, too.
@ILikeKirbys
First of all, I like the idea of the challenges actually being very challenging, because otherwise they become rather pointless (apart from unlocking stuff). I'm thinking like the Bowhemoth mode in Runbow, it should be really hard, but not unfair, as you wrote yourself.
You seem to have the mechanics right already (I'm not that experienced in Paper Mario anyway), so I'll try to focus on the story.
We all know those videos on youtube where Mario is accused of murder and Peach is said to have Stockholm syndrom (some of those are funny and some of them are not so great). I'd love it if part of that humor would be included in the game, without going too far of course (it shouldn't become too dark, for example mentioning the Stockholm syndrom is okay, the murder accusations should be toned down a bit though).
This could even become a running gag during the course of the game, either made by NPC's or the three main characters themselves.
When I wrote that idea down in my last post, it just came spontaneously after reading your idea, I didn't really think it through but it felt right.
So now that I think about it more thoroughly, I think this could be really entertaining:
At this point, your second paragraph would follow, only with Mario instead of Bowser as the endboss:
I'd also like to point out that during the levels which can be only played by one character, the other two characters could be in a supporting role, like giving the player power-ups or stunning the enemy occasionally.
Now the two of us only have to work out some details and then pitch the idea to Nintendo for the next Paper Mario game after Color Splash. ;) That would be so great! I love the gameplay mechanics you came up with, most and foremost the legions of Bowser. And now that I elaborated on it, I really like my own story idea with evil Mario. That could be so much fun!
First of all, I like the idea of the challenges actually being very challenging, because otherwise they become rather pointless (apart from unlocking stuff). I'm thinking like the Bowhemoth mode in Runbow, it should be really hard, but not unfair, as you wrote yourself.
You seem to have the mechanics right already (I'm not that experienced in Paper Mario anyway), so I'll try to focus on the story.
We all know those videos on youtube where Mario is accused of murder and Peach is said to have Stockholm syndrom (some of those are funny and some of them are not so great). I'd love it if part of that humor would be included in the game, without going too far of course (it shouldn't become too dark, for example mentioning the Stockholm syndrom is okay, the murder accusations should be toned down a bit though).
This could even become a running gag during the course of the game, either made by NPC's or the three main characters themselves.
When I wrote that idea down in my last post, it just came spontaneously after reading your idea, I didn't really think it through but it felt right.
So now that I think about it more thoroughly, I think this could be really entertaining:
You start the game with Mario, who finds out that Peach was kidnapped. Oh no!
The twist is, you already rescue Peach early in the game from some bad guys (but not Bowser), like maybe in the second or third world or so (assuming there would be 9 or 10 worlds).
Then, Mario expects Peach to give him a kiss or a cake like everytime when she got kidnapped and he rescued her (this means she's been kidnapped for the X00000000000000000th time). But, to Mario's surprise, Peach says something like "But Mario, what about the [inhabitants of the world the game plays in] that got captured by [evil bad guy]?
Those inhabitants could be some MacGuffins like the Lums in Rayman (which means you have to free dozens of them) or just one single character like the queen of that world (which means she should be rescued near the end of the game). Or both, of course.
Anyway, Mario is actually disappointed and initially tries to convince Peach of going back home and leaving this strange world behind them. But of course, Peach can't accept this and almost gets angry with Mario: "Are you serious? Where is the hero that always rescued me? Someone has to rescue her/them!"
Otherwise, Mario reluctantly agrees and they move on.
From here on, depending on how early the player gets Peach, the levels where you control Mario or Peach could be alternating in turns.
After some MacGuffin collecting etc. they would encounter Bowser, who's trapped/captured and asks Mario and Peach for help. Again, Mario plays the slightly evil role and suggests they shouldn't trust Bowser and just leave him there. But of course, the good-hearted Peach can't accept that.
Now, here comes the part where I don't have exact ideas how to push the story further. But I bet you have good gameplay ideas, basically those that you mentioned already. Since Bowsers abilities are rather complex, the player will be probably busy learning them and won't need that much story at that stage. Bowser's legions as you described them (I like all of them!) would be slowly, but steadily introduced (this part shouldn't be dragged out too much, but it will take some time to get accustomed to Bowser's abilities) with enemy classes that fit his legions well, so that it doesn't feel forced to be stuck with playing Bowser for a while. In fact, it should be the opposite: Bowsers opulent resources should feel like Christmas for the player, so maybe even make all legions available at once? Or would that be too much? I don't know.
Anyway, for a few levels/worlds in a row, you play Bowser until you know the in's and out's of his gameplay mechanics.
During this, it is slowly revealed that Bowser is actually a sad guy, who never met his parents (youtube!) and just wants to find the right girl to start his own family with. Besides, he already has kids (the Koopalings) and he doesn't want them to grow up without a mother like him (also: youtube!).
Without going into too much detail in the game about what happened with his parents and why he was an orphan or how/by whom he was raised, it should become clear that in fact he has honorable goals and always thought Peach would be the perfect mother and that she would grow to like him.
But he realizes now that what he did was wrong, that he shouldn't have just taken her but instead should've asked her out properly like a real man does. Bowser knows that he messed things up and that he can't expect any forgiveness or second chances for his evil deeds.
Instead, he now wants to make up for that by helping Mario and Peach free the queen/the 'Lums'. Finally, Bowser apologizes to both Peach and Mario, he really seems to be in a bad place.
Peach comforts Bowser and says something like "It's never too late to change, apologizing was a good start", while Mario (also during Bowsers whole dialog) is rather doubtful and unforgiving ("He's only saying that to get you to like him", "He's still a bad guy", "What he did is unforgivable"), even cold at times, if you see how much Bowser is suffering from inside and how sad his origin story is.
This could be the first time the player actually raises some eyebrows and suspects that something inside Mario is changing.
In fact, maybe in a scene after a Mario-exclusive level, you would see Mario getting angry all by himself, fearing that Bowser might steal Peach from him, only this time actually for good because she starts to like Bowser and dislike Mario, but only gradually.
This would go on and on and culminate in Mario bursting out in rage. Because during the assumed end battle of the game (where you free the queen or the 'Lums'), it's actually Bowser who pulls it off and throws the final blow against the endboss while Mario and Peach are stunned/freezed or something. And then he frees Mario and Peach out of the ice blocks, which makes Peach hug Bowser and say "thank you!". This goes too far for Mario, this is the moment where jealousy and rage make him break.
Our beloved Italian plumber erupts and it is revealed that, while Peach and Bowser where flirting in between the game, Mario secretly convinced Bowser's legions that Bowser has gone soft and isn't the evil king he was anymore. So the legions pledge their loyalty to Mario instead, maybe it could be even revealed how already in earlier levels, the minions actually sabotaged (for this to be memorable, in those earlier Bowser levels there should be some actual misses that almost lead to Bowser dying) or the trio's plans by misfiring etc, all on Mario's secret commands.
The twist is, you already rescue Peach early in the game from some bad guys (but not Bowser), like maybe in the second or third world or so (assuming there would be 9 or 10 worlds).
Then, Mario expects Peach to give him a kiss or a cake like everytime when she got kidnapped and he rescued her (this means she's been kidnapped for the X00000000000000000th time). But, to Mario's surprise, Peach says something like "But Mario, what about the [inhabitants of the world the game plays in] that got captured by [evil bad guy]?
Those inhabitants could be some MacGuffins like the Lums in Rayman (which means you have to free dozens of them) or just one single character like the queen of that world (which means she should be rescued near the end of the game). Or both, of course.
Anyway, Mario is actually disappointed and initially tries to convince Peach of going back home and leaving this strange world behind them. But of course, Peach can't accept this and almost gets angry with Mario: "Are you serious? Where is the hero that always rescued me? Someone has to rescue her/them!"
As an allusion to Paper Mario Wii, I'd like to offer the player an ending here. Mario could just refuse three times and the game would end, while Peach would be mad at Mario, maybe even call him a hypocrite/egotist who will save the princess he loves but not anyone else. Then she would say that she never wants to see him again or something (shouldn't be too cruel though, maybe toned down a bit) and the game would be over.
Otherwise, Mario reluctantly agrees and they move on.
From here on, depending on how early the player gets Peach, the levels where you control Mario or Peach could be alternating in turns.
After some MacGuffin collecting etc. they would encounter Bowser, who's trapped/captured and asks Mario and Peach for help. Again, Mario plays the slightly evil role and suggests they shouldn't trust Bowser and just leave him there. But of course, the good-hearted Peach can't accept that.
This could be another chance for an alternate ending, but I'm not sure whether it's worth it or not. But hey, why not? Far Cry 4 had four endings and everyone liked that. :D
So after an epic battle against a mid-game boss, they free Bowser and he, since he has no allies or any way to get home quickly, joins Mario and Peach.
Now, here comes the part where I don't have exact ideas how to push the story further. But I bet you have good gameplay ideas, basically those that you mentioned already. Since Bowsers abilities are rather complex, the player will be probably busy learning them and won't need that much story at that stage. Bowser's legions as you described them (I like all of them!) would be slowly, but steadily introduced (this part shouldn't be dragged out too much, but it will take some time to get accustomed to Bowser's abilities) with enemy classes that fit his legions well, so that it doesn't feel forced to be stuck with playing Bowser for a while. In fact, it should be the opposite: Bowsers opulent resources should feel like Christmas for the player, so maybe even make all legions available at once? Or would that be too much? I don't know.
Anyway, for a few levels/worlds in a row, you play Bowser until you know the in's and out's of his gameplay mechanics.
During this, it is slowly revealed that Bowser is actually a sad guy, who never met his parents (youtube!) and just wants to find the right girl to start his own family with. Besides, he already has kids (the Koopalings) and he doesn't want them to grow up without a mother like him (also: youtube!).
Without going into too much detail in the game about what happened with his parents and why he was an orphan or how/by whom he was raised, it should become clear that in fact he has honorable goals and always thought Peach would be the perfect mother and that she would grow to like him.
But he realizes now that what he did was wrong, that he shouldn't have just taken her but instead should've asked her out properly like a real man does. Bowser knows that he messed things up and that he can't expect any forgiveness or second chances for his evil deeds.
Instead, he now wants to make up for that by helping Mario and Peach free the queen/the 'Lums'. Finally, Bowser apologizes to both Peach and Mario, he really seems to be in a bad place.
Peach comforts Bowser and says something like "It's never too late to change, apologizing was a good start", while Mario (also during Bowsers whole dialog) is rather doubtful and unforgiving ("He's only saying that to get you to like him", "He's still a bad guy", "What he did is unforgivable"), even cold at times, if you see how much Bowser is suffering from inside and how sad his origin story is.
This could be the first time the player actually raises some eyebrows and suspects that something inside Mario is changing.
In fact, maybe in a scene after a Mario-exclusive level, you would see Mario getting angry all by himself, fearing that Bowser might steal Peach from him, only this time actually for good because she starts to like Bowser and dislike Mario, but only gradually.
This would go on and on and culminate in Mario bursting out in rage. Because during the assumed end battle of the game (where you free the queen or the 'Lums'), it's actually Bowser who pulls it off and throws the final blow against the endboss while Mario and Peach are stunned/freezed or something. And then he frees Mario and Peach out of the ice blocks, which makes Peach hug Bowser and say "thank you!". This goes too far for Mario, this is the moment where jealousy and rage make him break.
Our beloved Italian plumber erupts and it is revealed that, while Peach and Bowser where flirting in between the game, Mario secretly convinced Bowser's legions that Bowser has gone soft and isn't the evil king he was anymore. So the legions pledge their loyalty to Mario instead, maybe it could be even revealed how already in earlier levels, the minions actually sabotaged (for this to be memorable, in those earlier Bowser levels there should be some actual misses that almost lead to Bowser dying) or the trio's plans by misfiring etc, all on Mario's secret commands.
At this point, your second paragraph would follow, only with Mario instead of Bowser as the endboss:
And then the final boss fight would be Mario. He'd fight with all the abilities you had when you were controlling him (Jump, Firebreath, Minions), but cranked all the way up. His jumps would go higher and farther than they would when you controlled him and deal extraordinary damage when he landed on you. His fire breath would have a sizable start-up, but would be large enough to cover all of the ground in front of him for a few seconds, requiring jumping behind Mario or getting very high in the air until it's over to dodge. His minions would be different than the ones you had while playing as Mario (which kinda makes sense, since he's not trying to platform here, he's trying to kill you). He'd send Spiky Goombas charging along the ground, which would double back when Mario's at low HP, he'd throw Bob-Ombs at you like a Bob-Omb Bro (though in a higher arc, and they'd be Big Bob-Ombs when his HP is low), he'd summon a Carrier Lakitu with a Banzai Bill Blaster to pepper you with Banzai Bills while he does other things for a while (the Banzai Bills being replaced with slow-moving ParaSpinies at low HP), and at low HP he'd summon a Magikoopa to summon enemies along with him to double the amount of enemies you're dealing with (but, to be somewhat merciful, the Magikoopa can only summon Spiky Goombas, Pinball Paratroopas, and Carrier Lakitu, and he's always on ground-level so you can attack him easily, though doing this makes Mario summon another one shortly afterward, and if you do it a few times he'll summon two Magikoopas). Due to his power-up, you wouldn't be able to hurt Mario with Pixls, so it's down to jumping and hammering and dodging Mario's onslaught until you whittle down his HP (I'm not sure if I'd give Mario mercy invincibility after you hit him; on the one hand, it might make the fight get a bit tedious, and I don't want that, but on the other hand it'd make sense since he was a player character and would have had it while you were controlling him). And after beating Mario, the game would actually end.
I'd also like to point out that during the levels which can be only played by one character, the other two characters could be in a supporting role, like giving the player power-ups or stunning the enemy occasionally.
Now the two of us only have to work out some details and then pitch the idea to Nintendo for the next Paper Mario game after Color Splash. ;) That would be so great! I love the gameplay mechanics you came up with, most and foremost the legions of Bowser. And now that I elaborated on it, I really like my own story idea with evil Mario. That could be so much fun!
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ILikeKirbys
Inkling Commander
@shani
Thanks! I'm glad you like my gameplay ideas! Bowser's legions in particular is something I've hoped Nintendo would do for the longest time now, I'm rather proud of it, so I'm glad you like it!
Those are some neat ideas! I'm not much of a story guy (more into gameplay, probably why I enjoy stuff like Mario and Kirby as much as I do), and I'm not especially creative (pretty sure everything I've written is just iterating and fleshing-out of a concept I'd seen elsewhere; Bowser's minions are pretty much Super Mario Maker with fewer tools and set stages and Bowser, Peach's parasol-golf came from wondering what Wario Land 3's pseudo-golf minigame would be like in a platforming format, Mario's beat-em-up-to-refill-the-3D-meter-so-you-can-stay-3D thing was inspired by Bayonetta of all things, most of the gameplay is just lifted from Super Paper Mario (although that one, at least, is supposed to be that way), and so on, and so forth), but I can iterate pretty well, so I'll try that now.
I like evil Mario as a concept, though overcome-by-jealousy-and-rage isn't how I'd have ever described the plumber. He's... not really like that at all, at least when he's himself. Also, he's never had spoken dialogue with word boxes (he does talk, just not in a way te player can read), so his suggestions going darker could work, just require having other characters imply things. Or something, I wrote this last sentence late at night when I needed sleep.
So, here are some thoughts:
Thanks! I'm glad you like my gameplay ideas! Bowser's legions in particular is something I've hoped Nintendo would do for the longest time now, I'm rather proud of it, so I'm glad you like it!
Those are some neat ideas! I'm not much of a story guy (more into gameplay, probably why I enjoy stuff like Mario and Kirby as much as I do), and I'm not especially creative (pretty sure everything I've written is just iterating and fleshing-out of a concept I'd seen elsewhere; Bowser's minions are pretty much Super Mario Maker with fewer tools and set stages and Bowser, Peach's parasol-golf came from wondering what Wario Land 3's pseudo-golf minigame would be like in a platforming format, Mario's beat-em-up-to-refill-the-3D-meter-so-you-can-stay-3D thing was inspired by Bayonetta of all things, most of the gameplay is just lifted from Super Paper Mario (although that one, at least, is supposed to be that way), and so on, and so forth), but I can iterate pretty well, so I'll try that now.
I like evil Mario as a concept, though overcome-by-jealousy-and-rage isn't how I'd have ever described the plumber. He's... not really like that at all, at least when he's himself. Also, he's never had spoken dialogue with word boxes (he does talk, just not in a way te player can read), so his suggestions going darker could work, just require having other characters imply things. Or something, I wrote this last sentence late at night when I needed sleep.
So, here are some thoughts:
Those bad dudes that kidnapped Peach and necesitated Mario do the save-the-princess thing? They brought back an eldritch abomination (think Shadow Queen, only not the Shadow Queen, and 3-dimensional). After Mario stomps it into the dirt (partway through the first world; set it up as a bait-and-switch where it appears Peach'll be whisked away right as you're about to rescue her, but then Mario actually gets to rescue her with no apparent repercussions), it kinda sorta dissipates around Mario, and then fade to black and Mario and Peach are walking out of whatever Peach was being held in (would dark-queen-worshippers use castles?). Here's where your idea comes back; Mario's resistant to rescuing people and rulers and Bowser, and while that last one is kinda understandable (he's usually fine after whatever happens to him anyway, and he's just gonna kidnap Peach for the X00000000000001st time sooner or later if you help him out), the other two (and the last one, to a small extent) are rather out of character for Mario, which Peach notices.
Additionally, after rescuing Peach, Mario would gain the ability to shift to the 3D perspective. After a level or two, Peach would be granted this ability as well, and Bowser might get it down the line too (maybe; Mario doesn't trust him, after all, but Peach might be able to talk him into it).
At the hey-Mario-we-should-save-the-people choice, saying No enough times would trigger an alternate ending, like you said. My idea would be that Peach storms off at this... and gets Luigi to help her instead. Then cut to an "and the world was saved... by Luigi." and the end credits, with Mario leading a marching band (a reference to Super Mario RPG and Paper Mario having Luigi lead the end credits marching band, but since Luigi did the world-saving it's Mario instead). Not sure you need an alternate ending for hey-we-should-help-Bowser, instead just have Peach do it instead of Mario if you say No there. Either way, Bowser is rescued, runs away, then joins up with you at the end of the level you rescue him on for insert-funny-reason-here.
As for Bowser, yeah his stuff would be quite overwhelming if you got all of it at once. Instead, you'd just start with Springboard Goombas, because Bowser hit his head when you rescued him and forgot how to summon his minions (this also makes a decent excuse for him not to try for kidnapping number way-too-damn-many here, given that his track record of beating Mario without power-ups is abysmal). You'd collect books that remind Bowser how to summon minions in his levels (conveniently placed just before a simple area where you use them to solve a simple puzzle/do some simple platforming, followed by something more complex to get you used to their use). This is also how I saw collecting Pixls working (Mario doesn't need to start with everything at once either; given how the story is here, Peach should also be able to use Pixls, but Bowser wouldn't because his minions are better than Pixls, or so he says).
As a side gameplay note which I'll probably add to my previous post but want to put here in case I forget, Bowser Bros have a second purpose, alluded to in the fact that they can throw Bob-Ombs; they can throw most objects (unless they're heavy or deal contact damage).
Mario's odd behavior would escalate from here, eliciting confused, worried responses from Peach (because it's weird for him to be acting this way, and she'd know it) and even Bowser (to suggest that Mario's dialogue is so out of character that even Bowser is noticing that something's up), and maybe some darker humor. Additionally, Yes/No dialogue options would occasionally change to No/No when you selected Yes (and only when you selected Yes, no need to act like anything's weird if you choose the now-in-character option). But it wouldn't affect the gameplay, it'd just be story-weirdness.
Except for those times Bowser almost gets killed, but doesn't. I'd have that done by strange 3-dimensional objects that cause surprise death-traps that require quick thinking and placement of minions to maneuver past. These wouldn't explicitly be Mario's doing, though Mario being behind it would become obvious in hindsight later.
Until the final world, after you gained the final macguffin (but not at the end of the world map, you have a few levels to go before that at this point).
Here, it's revealed that that thing you beat up when you were rescuing Peach has been inhabiting Mario's body (like a parasite, not like it killed him) since then, which explains the weird actions he's made you take and been allowed to do. This would be revealed (well, the evil part, anyway) when he, in the middle of a fairly simple and uneventful level where you're controlling Peach, Mario suddenly shifts into 2D in front of Peach and kidnaps her!
Bowser, naturally, is utterly flabbergasted by this turn of events; only he gets to kidnap Peach! He rallies his minions... only to find that Mario (or rather, the thing controlling Mario) has turned his minions against him! So now, Bowser must trudge through the final world (for irony points, this is the world you started on, but taken over by EvilMario) alone, using Pixls to make up for his subpar platforming abilities and forcefully re-recruiting his minions one by one (possibly by fighting brainwashed Koopalings), even being forced to do battle with a mind-controlled Bowser Jr. During these areas, Bowser would be unable to use 3D shift (becaue Mario isn't letting him have that ability anymore).
And at the end of this gauntlet awaits Mario, on a walkway, with Peach suspended in a cage above. A reversal of the usual events, where Bowser is the obstacle between you and Peach, here possessedMario is standing in the way of Bowser rescuing the princess. After whatever's doing the possessing the Pixls from Bowser, the final battle begins.
Mario would fight like, well, Mario. He'd jump and create shockwaves when he lands that must be jumped over (which also kill Springboard Goombas, Bob-Ombs and Bowser Bros, as well as Mario's own Spiky Goombas and Bob-Ombs), his hammer creates a large shockwave that must be Springboard Goomba'd over. He'd send Spiky Goombas scurrying across the battlefield that Bowser must also jump over, which will double back when Mario's HP is low. He'd throw Bob-Ombs at Bowser that he has to either Springboard Goomba over, bodyblock with a minion or summon a Bowser Bro to catch (who will then throw it directly at Mario, to reward outside-the-box thinking), and at low HP Mario starts throwing Big Bob-Ombs that cannot be bodyblocked or caught, forcing you to leap over them with a well-timed Springboard Goomba. He'd spawn a Carrier Lakitu carrying a Banzai Bill Blaster to pepper you with Banzai Bills for a bit, which at low HP would be replaced with a regular Lakitu throwing wrecking balls straight down occasionally for a longer while. At low HP, Mario would summon Kamek, who would hover on the top half of the screen and occasionally summon Spiky Goombas and Pinball Paratroopas, which would bounce around the screen for a few seconds before disappearing. He could be temporarily disabled by spawning a Bowser Bro and throwing Bowser into him, but Mario would revive him after a few attacks if you did that, and if you did it enough times without beating Mario, he'd duplicate Kamek to double the summons.
And occasionally, Mario will stand on the farther end of the walkway and flip the perspective to 3D. During this time, Mario will summon Bob-Ombs to rush straight down the walkway, which must be dodged, and Pinball Paratroopas, which would rebound off the walls of the walkway at shallow angles. Touching the Bob-Ombs or Paratroopas would knock Bowser backward as well as damage him. During this time, the 3D meter would slowly tick down, and when it emptied out, Bowser would start taking damage. To make Mario shift back to 2D, Bowser would have to walk past the Bob-Ombs and Paratroopas and attack Mario, forcing him to shift back to get away from you. Also, Bowser's minions would not be able to be summoned during this sequence (I wouldn't have the minions usable at all in 3D, but I'm sure some justification could be made for this one sequence disallowing their usage). Kamek would disappear during these segments as well (presumably because he can't go into the 3D perspective for some reason, but really because dealing with Kamek's summons as well as Mario's during what is effectively a timed mission would probably get annoying quickly).
After you beat Mario, he'd slump over, defeated. Bowser would rescue Peach... and then the thing possessing Mario escapes his body and becomes far more powerful than it was before. The macguffins you'd been collecting the entire game have given it a massive power-up (dunno how exactly, I'm just going for a more direct version of TTYD's collecting-the-macgufins-was-like-a-really-bad-idea-yo thing), and now our heroes are unable to stop it: Mario just got beaten by Bowser, and Bowser's exhausted from beating Mario, leaving the 3D-not-Shadow-Queen (I'm just going to call it that, since that's kinda what it is in my head) swallows up the area, and threatens to do the same to the rest of the world (not through dialogue or anything, I can't see it talking, just slowly expanding outward).
And then Peach wakes up in a jumbled world where 2D and 3D space intersect and diverge seemingly at random, separated from Mario and Bowser, and sets out to find them to set the world back as it was.
The last level begins, and it's a bizarre one. Some rooms have a 3D perspective, where flipping the level to 2D requires the perspective-shifting-meter that was previously used only to go 3D (don't worry, if a room starts in 3D, you won't be hurt by not being in 2D for too long), while others would have the standard 2D perspective. Mario and Bowser would have to be sought out and rescued (in that order); rescuing Mario would give back your Pixls, and rescuing Bowser would give you his minions. After reuniting the trio, you get a new mechanic where you can switch between Mario, Bowser and Peach at any time you wish, allowing for new tricks (which you will have to use, of course) and tricky puzzles and platforming that you must complete to reach the true final boss (because it's about time, isn't it?). Additionally, this level is a marathon, containing more Save Points than any previous level had.
After navigating the strange, 2/3D dimension, you find the 3D-not-Shadow-Queen and the macguffins. Here, you must battle the three-dimensional object in both 2D and 3D, using all of the abilities of every character to expose and damage its weak points. I'm not sure how exactly it would battle you, I'm kinda getting sleepy now so I can't come up with anything.
After you beat it, 3DnotShadowQueen would begin disintegrating. Afterward, the world would be as it had previously been. Mario and Peach wisely decide to go home, while Bowser retreats to get all of his troops back under his control. Game, set, roll credits, get that Luigi marching band going.
And then the challenge areas would be unlocked. These would be where the apparent final levels had been, and then off to Star Road for more difficult levels. The initial challenge levels would be unlocked when you beat the game, while the Star Road levels would be unlocked by finding and beating hidden secret levels found throughout all the worlds (requiring some backtracking to find). The initial challenges would be stuff you could have come across during the game, just a bit trickier. The hidden challenges would give you challenging tasks, then force certain limitations on you (limited magic meter, no jumping, limited total amount of time you can spend in 3D perspective, time limit, don't-run-out-of-coins-as-they-constantly-tick-down, don't-touch-anything-except-the-ground, stuff like that).
Those are my ideas. Thoughts?
I spent far too long writing this. So tired...
Additionally, after rescuing Peach, Mario would gain the ability to shift to the 3D perspective. After a level or two, Peach would be granted this ability as well, and Bowser might get it down the line too (maybe; Mario doesn't trust him, after all, but Peach might be able to talk him into it).
At the hey-Mario-we-should-save-the-people choice, saying No enough times would trigger an alternate ending, like you said. My idea would be that Peach storms off at this... and gets Luigi to help her instead. Then cut to an "and the world was saved... by Luigi." and the end credits, with Mario leading a marching band (a reference to Super Mario RPG and Paper Mario having Luigi lead the end credits marching band, but since Luigi did the world-saving it's Mario instead). Not sure you need an alternate ending for hey-we-should-help-Bowser, instead just have Peach do it instead of Mario if you say No there. Either way, Bowser is rescued, runs away, then joins up with you at the end of the level you rescue him on for insert-funny-reason-here.
As for Bowser, yeah his stuff would be quite overwhelming if you got all of it at once. Instead, you'd just start with Springboard Goombas, because Bowser hit his head when you rescued him and forgot how to summon his minions (this also makes a decent excuse for him not to try for kidnapping number way-too-damn-many here, given that his track record of beating Mario without power-ups is abysmal). You'd collect books that remind Bowser how to summon minions in his levels (conveniently placed just before a simple area where you use them to solve a simple puzzle/do some simple platforming, followed by something more complex to get you used to their use). This is also how I saw collecting Pixls working (Mario doesn't need to start with everything at once either; given how the story is here, Peach should also be able to use Pixls, but Bowser wouldn't because his minions are better than Pixls, or so he says).
As a side gameplay note which I'll probably add to my previous post but want to put here in case I forget, Bowser Bros have a second purpose, alluded to in the fact that they can throw Bob-Ombs; they can throw most objects (unless they're heavy or deal contact damage).
Mario's odd behavior would escalate from here, eliciting confused, worried responses from Peach (because it's weird for him to be acting this way, and she'd know it) and even Bowser (to suggest that Mario's dialogue is so out of character that even Bowser is noticing that something's up), and maybe some darker humor. Additionally, Yes/No dialogue options would occasionally change to No/No when you selected Yes (and only when you selected Yes, no need to act like anything's weird if you choose the now-in-character option). But it wouldn't affect the gameplay, it'd just be story-weirdness.
Except for those times Bowser almost gets killed, but doesn't. I'd have that done by strange 3-dimensional objects that cause surprise death-traps that require quick thinking and placement of minions to maneuver past. These wouldn't explicitly be Mario's doing, though Mario being behind it would become obvious in hindsight later.
Until the final world, after you gained the final macguffin (but not at the end of the world map, you have a few levels to go before that at this point).
Here, it's revealed that that thing you beat up when you were rescuing Peach has been inhabiting Mario's body (like a parasite, not like it killed him) since then, which explains the weird actions he's made you take and been allowed to do. This would be revealed (well, the evil part, anyway) when he, in the middle of a fairly simple and uneventful level where you're controlling Peach, Mario suddenly shifts into 2D in front of Peach and kidnaps her!
Bowser, naturally, is utterly flabbergasted by this turn of events; only he gets to kidnap Peach! He rallies his minions... only to find that Mario (or rather, the thing controlling Mario) has turned his minions against him! So now, Bowser must trudge through the final world (for irony points, this is the world you started on, but taken over by EvilMario) alone, using Pixls to make up for his subpar platforming abilities and forcefully re-recruiting his minions one by one (possibly by fighting brainwashed Koopalings), even being forced to do battle with a mind-controlled Bowser Jr. During these areas, Bowser would be unable to use 3D shift (becaue Mario isn't letting him have that ability anymore).
And at the end of this gauntlet awaits Mario, on a walkway, with Peach suspended in a cage above. A reversal of the usual events, where Bowser is the obstacle between you and Peach, here possessedMario is standing in the way of Bowser rescuing the princess. After whatever's doing the possessing the Pixls from Bowser, the final battle begins.
Mario would fight like, well, Mario. He'd jump and create shockwaves when he lands that must be jumped over (which also kill Springboard Goombas, Bob-Ombs and Bowser Bros, as well as Mario's own Spiky Goombas and Bob-Ombs), his hammer creates a large shockwave that must be Springboard Goomba'd over. He'd send Spiky Goombas scurrying across the battlefield that Bowser must also jump over, which will double back when Mario's HP is low. He'd throw Bob-Ombs at Bowser that he has to either Springboard Goomba over, bodyblock with a minion or summon a Bowser Bro to catch (who will then throw it directly at Mario, to reward outside-the-box thinking), and at low HP Mario starts throwing Big Bob-Ombs that cannot be bodyblocked or caught, forcing you to leap over them with a well-timed Springboard Goomba. He'd spawn a Carrier Lakitu carrying a Banzai Bill Blaster to pepper you with Banzai Bills for a bit, which at low HP would be replaced with a regular Lakitu throwing wrecking balls straight down occasionally for a longer while. At low HP, Mario would summon Kamek, who would hover on the top half of the screen and occasionally summon Spiky Goombas and Pinball Paratroopas, which would bounce around the screen for a few seconds before disappearing. He could be temporarily disabled by spawning a Bowser Bro and throwing Bowser into him, but Mario would revive him after a few attacks if you did that, and if you did it enough times without beating Mario, he'd duplicate Kamek to double the summons.
And occasionally, Mario will stand on the farther end of the walkway and flip the perspective to 3D. During this time, Mario will summon Bob-Ombs to rush straight down the walkway, which must be dodged, and Pinball Paratroopas, which would rebound off the walls of the walkway at shallow angles. Touching the Bob-Ombs or Paratroopas would knock Bowser backward as well as damage him. During this time, the 3D meter would slowly tick down, and when it emptied out, Bowser would start taking damage. To make Mario shift back to 2D, Bowser would have to walk past the Bob-Ombs and Paratroopas and attack Mario, forcing him to shift back to get away from you. Also, Bowser's minions would not be able to be summoned during this sequence (I wouldn't have the minions usable at all in 3D, but I'm sure some justification could be made for this one sequence disallowing their usage). Kamek would disappear during these segments as well (presumably because he can't go into the 3D perspective for some reason, but really because dealing with Kamek's summons as well as Mario's during what is effectively a timed mission would probably get annoying quickly).
After you beat Mario, he'd slump over, defeated. Bowser would rescue Peach... and then the thing possessing Mario escapes his body and becomes far more powerful than it was before. The macguffins you'd been collecting the entire game have given it a massive power-up (dunno how exactly, I'm just going for a more direct version of TTYD's collecting-the-macgufins-was-like-a-really-bad-idea-yo thing), and now our heroes are unable to stop it: Mario just got beaten by Bowser, and Bowser's exhausted from beating Mario, leaving the 3D-not-Shadow-Queen (I'm just going to call it that, since that's kinda what it is in my head) swallows up the area, and threatens to do the same to the rest of the world (not through dialogue or anything, I can't see it talking, just slowly expanding outward).
And then Peach wakes up in a jumbled world where 2D and 3D space intersect and diverge seemingly at random, separated from Mario and Bowser, and sets out to find them to set the world back as it was.
The last level begins, and it's a bizarre one. Some rooms have a 3D perspective, where flipping the level to 2D requires the perspective-shifting-meter that was previously used only to go 3D (don't worry, if a room starts in 3D, you won't be hurt by not being in 2D for too long), while others would have the standard 2D perspective. Mario and Bowser would have to be sought out and rescued (in that order); rescuing Mario would give back your Pixls, and rescuing Bowser would give you his minions. After reuniting the trio, you get a new mechanic where you can switch between Mario, Bowser and Peach at any time you wish, allowing for new tricks (which you will have to use, of course) and tricky puzzles and platforming that you must complete to reach the true final boss (because it's about time, isn't it?). Additionally, this level is a marathon, containing more Save Points than any previous level had.
After navigating the strange, 2/3D dimension, you find the 3D-not-Shadow-Queen and the macguffins. Here, you must battle the three-dimensional object in both 2D and 3D, using all of the abilities of every character to expose and damage its weak points. I'm not sure how exactly it would battle you, I'm kinda getting sleepy now so I can't come up with anything.
After you beat it, 3DnotShadowQueen would begin disintegrating. Afterward, the world would be as it had previously been. Mario and Peach wisely decide to go home, while Bowser retreats to get all of his troops back under his control. Game, set, roll credits, get that Luigi marching band going.
And then the challenge areas would be unlocked. These would be where the apparent final levels had been, and then off to Star Road for more difficult levels. The initial challenge levels would be unlocked when you beat the game, while the Star Road levels would be unlocked by finding and beating hidden secret levels found throughout all the worlds (requiring some backtracking to find). The initial challenges would be stuff you could have come across during the game, just a bit trickier. The hidden challenges would give you challenging tasks, then force certain limitations on you (limited magic meter, no jumping, limited total amount of time you can spend in 3D perspective, time limit, don't-run-out-of-coins-as-they-constantly-tick-down, don't-touch-anything-except-the-ground, stuff like that).
Those are my ideas. Thoughts?
I spent far too long writing this. So tired...
Yeah that's true, usually Mario is not like that. I mean, it could also be some kind of spell that made him evil or something, this could be the ultimate twist at the end. ^^
Also, Mario wouldn't need to say anything in the textboxes, just nodding/shaking his head and making an angry face could be enough. Just like in Paper Mario, rather simple, almost cute animations, only with evilness inside. :D
Ok, now to the spoiler part:
I like how you implemented my idea on the spot, great additions!
Mario not trusting Bowser with the 3D shifting, haha, I like that!
And I love the idea of having Luigi save the world instead (and Mario lead the marching band) if you say no enough times. :D
Also, you're right, if Mario doesn't want so save Bowser, Peach will do it, that's even better.
The thing with Bowser forgetting his abilities due to hitting his head would also work quite nicely as classic gameplay-serving storytelling, I like that. And the thing with the books sounds like a simple gameplay solution for unlocking Bowser's abilities, nice job. :)
Haha, even Bowser noticing Mario's strange behaviour, hilarious, yes please! And the No/No dialogues would certainly be funny.
And it gets even better, you already had the idea that Mario would be possessed, awesome! Bowser being forced to use pixls and re-recruit minions and even fight Bowser Jr also makes for a nice gameplay variation.
Wow, you already have thought through the details of the end battle. Collecting the Macguffins being a bad idea, Mario and Bowser being weakened in front of a huge monster (being forced to work together to survive), it couldn't become more dramatic! That makes me want to play it even more...
And then Peach must find those two, so you would switch from playing Mario and Bowser to playing Peach, I think that change of character fits well in there. Also, having the three main characters fighting together/in turns in the very last battle also makes sense as the ultimate climax.
And after that, you would unlock challenge mode, I agree.
I don't know what to say, there's not much to change or disagree with, everything rather seems to be coming together really nicely. :)
@ILikeKirbys: Our 'collaboration' actually made me want to play Super Paper Mario again (to finally continue my savegame), so I bought a used copy today. :)
Also, watched the Color Splash video again and as a non-Mario-RPG-veteran, I have to say I like it! I just hope they really nail the whole paint/card mechanic.
Also, watched the Color Splash video again and as a non-Mario-RPG-veteran, I have to say I like it! I just hope they really nail the whole paint/card mechanic.
ILikeKirbys
Inkling Commander
Yeah, I've had that happen to me too.
Also, thanks for the help.
You mean the GameXplain video? Because speaking as someone who played all the Paper Marios except Sticker Star (not sure Mario & Luigi: Paper Jam counts as a Paper Mario, but I played that too: it was quite fun, though that comes from someone who hasn't played Dream Team yet), that's the one that makes Color Splash look like it's shaping up to be a good game. It got me hyped.
And yeah, I'm just hoping they get paint and battle cards (which, now that I say it like that, makes it sound like a minor mechanic from Mario & Luigi: Paper Jam, though more important) to be good (I think I've expressed that in this thread before).
Also, as a new Color Splash-related thought, I'm hoping some of the partners from previous games'll cameo in some fashion. Maybe as paintings?
And I have to ask...
Will we see the superior Mario brother in this game? How about Bowser Jr. (the Bowser Jrs were one of the things I really laughed at in Paper Jam, so it'd be nice to see Paper Jr. return) and the Koopalings (Paper Jam implied the existence of paper Koopalings, so it'd be cool to see 'em as a boss)?
birdiebee
Inkling Commander
Noticing a "trend" in Wii U releases by Nintendo where they are trying to see how little they can get away with, outside of their best sellers Sm4sh, MK8 and Splatoon.
I mean compare Mario Party 10 with earlier titles, even 9. It has the least amount of stages, minigames, shoddy character selection, and non-existant variations of play modes. Bowser Party having only 3 playable boards was a ****ing ripoff. Compare Mario Tennis Ultra Smash to any previous tennis game. The only thing even remotely Mario about it is a giant mushroom. ONE power up is their gimmick? Give me a break. This doesnt count.
You can argue that these are B team games that arent meant to have the scale of their flagship titles, but they are still new entries in series that have a history of delivering in new content, modes, replay value. They are skeletons compared to the meat on their predecessors, which is sad coming from their most powerful console to date. Theres no excuse! Really, there isnt. Paper Mario looks like its following the same suit of seeing how little they can get away with and sell for $50-60.
I know this is a bit of a tangent. I'm not even a huge Paper Mario fan, but it doesnt take a genius to see that it is a beloved and cherished series. It deserves a sequel that lives up the what made it so beloved to begin with.
On a completely different note, Kirby Planet Robobot looks amazing. At least the Kirby series is cranking out consistently fun and fresh games without overhauling/scrapping the formula that its players love.
I mean compare Mario Party 10 with earlier titles, even 9. It has the least amount of stages, minigames, shoddy character selection, and non-existant variations of play modes. Bowser Party having only 3 playable boards was a ****ing ripoff. Compare Mario Tennis Ultra Smash to any previous tennis game. The only thing even remotely Mario about it is a giant mushroom. ONE power up is their gimmick? Give me a break. This doesnt count.
You can argue that these are B team games that arent meant to have the scale of their flagship titles, but they are still new entries in series that have a history of delivering in new content, modes, replay value. They are skeletons compared to the meat on their predecessors, which is sad coming from their most powerful console to date. Theres no excuse! Really, there isnt. Paper Mario looks like its following the same suit of seeing how little they can get away with and sell for $50-60.
I know this is a bit of a tangent. I'm not even a huge Paper Mario fan, but it doesnt take a genius to see that it is a beloved and cherished series. It deserves a sequel that lives up the what made it so beloved to begin with.
On a completely different note, Kirby Planet Robobot looks amazing. At least the Kirby series is cranking out consistently fun and fresh games without overhauling/scrapping the formula that its players love.
ILikeKirbys
Inkling Commander
Ah, that seems kinda related. My first thought when I saw Color Splash in the Nintendo Direct was "That's it?" I hadn't considered that it was being sold for $60, though. And I didn't buy either of those games (Mario Party 10 because I have no friends, Ultra Smash because I don't especially enjoy tennis games (outside of that one Gamecube Mario Tennis)), so I dunno for certain, but even when I was just watching trailers for those games (mainly Ultra Smash), I couldn't help but think "where's the part that makes this, y'know, Mario-y?"
Also, related thought: Maybe they're saving their best stuff for the NX, whenever that's coming out, and just want to put some stuff out for the WiiU in the meantime even if it isn't necessarily high quality? I dunno.
Well, on the one hand, Kirby has a fairly simple formula: Eat people, steal their powers, use their powers to beat the game, then go back to certain levels with specific power-ups for 100% completion (or something along these lines, at least for the main games like Return to Dream Land or 64:The Crystal Shards, and not stuff like Canvas Curse and Tilt 'n' Tumble). It's probably quite easy to make games like that with small alterations to the formula (new powers, expanded-upon old powers, animal friends, helpers, playable Meta Knight/Dedede/Bandana Dee).
But on the other hand, that's what I like about Kirby (surprise, ILikeKirbys enjoy Kirby games). It's easy to play Kirby, the copy powers are fun to use, the various additions to the formula are nice (the dual-powers from 64 were neat (especially the lightsaber and the stone-animal-friends), Super Star's helpers were nice to have around, Amazing Mirror's other Kirbys were admittedly only occasionally helpful but were cool to see in action when you could get them all fighting a boss at once, Meta Knightmare is enjoyable and I eagerly await its return), it's a series that isn't afraid to do some out-there stuff while still being identifiably a Kirby thing (Tilt 'n' Tumble, Canvas Curse, Epic Yarn, Mass Attack, I'm sure there are others I'm forgetting at the moment), and they're always at least an enjoyable experience. And the graphics make most things look extremely huggable.
I'm also looking forward to Planet Robobot. The Ride Armor (I don't care what the name is, that is pink, Kirby-themed Ride Armor) looks quite fun, and from what I've heard it has something like Super Star's Copy power (could be wrong, after all I only read that on TVTropes, but it seems plausible), which is definitely a plus. The new powers I've seen (Doctor and Poison, plus I read ESP on TVTropes) also look like they'll be fun to mess around with. Meta Knightmare Returns is nice to see return, and I'm looking forward to playing it. The mechanization of Dream Land could offer some interesting locations, too. Also, that Kirby Quest thing looks like a nice little side mode.
Overall, I'm very much expecting Kirby: Planet Robobot to be an enjoyable experience.
I've slowly come around to the same expectation for Color Splash and Metroid Prime: Federation Force (another game I started with reservations about before getting excited for in the space of one video explaining more about how it works) as well. Which is nice, I think.
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birdiebee
Inkling Commander
I agree with your comments on Robobot. And sure, the Kirby formula isnt difficult to get right, but neither is a simple Mario-themed RPG? I guess the point is that streamlining it to death is much easier, whereas Kirby is already about as streamlined as it gets.
With Federation Force, I dont know, it looks like a decently fun multiplayer (although as Gamexplain pointed out, your character moves as slow as sludge...) but it does not have a Metroid feel. You have stages with certain mission objectives, not a big open world to immerse yourself in. Its straightforward with little treasure hunting or exploration whatsoever. I guess you could say it suffers from the same drawbacks as all of my other examples as being a stripped down shell of its predecessors.
I understand Nintendo wanting to save its best efforts for NX and that may well be the reason these games are coming out as they are. But why even bother with Ultra Smash, for example, theres SO LITTLE to offer. It was better off being shelved and released on the console they want to draw their audience to next, as an actual full game. Starting to feel the same way about Paper Mario. A proper followup to TTYD released as a launch title on NX would be BEAUTIFUL. And you know it would be a system seller for many people.
Flareth
Inkling Fleet Admiral
If I can be honest, I'm not too thrilled that this Prism Island place looks like a Delfino Plaza knockoff. But that's a very minor complaint, one that doesn't need forgiving.
I haven't really been following this too much, mostly because I know I'll only find livid fanboys to sour the experience. I'll have to catch up on these videos to judge it for myself.
I haven't really been following this too much, mostly because I know I'll only find livid fanboys to sour the experience. I'll have to catch up on these videos to judge it for myself.
ILikeKirbys
Inkling Commander
Yeah, I suppose that's true.
Looks like they're getting Color Splash right though (or at least attempting to), since it appears to have made some improvements over Sticker Star just off the trailers (though we can't know for certain until more info comes out).
Ah, that's true too. It really isn't a regular Metroid title (or even Metroid Prime title) at all. They probably could have made that clearer (maybe called it Federation Force: Metroid Prime?).
Still, for what it is, it looks alright. Hopefully it'll be alright when it comes out.
I think I see your point. They really could have done better if they'd moved Ultra Smash to the NX and gave it more... I dunno, Mario-ish stuff (or kept it on WiiU and did that, really). Probably also true for Mario Party 10 too (though I didn't play that one either).
I wouldn't put Color Splash in that boat though. Nintendo really seems to be trying to get Color Splash right, if what I saw in the GameXplain video is any indication (and I'm assuming it is).
Although, yeah, a proper sequel to TTYD would be nice, and possibly sell some NXes (not sure how to pluralize NX), but do you think Nintendo'd be able to make a TTYD-style Paper Mario that's better than TTYD? Because I'm not so certain that they can.