Octo expansion feedback so far.

[Khalith]

Done about half the levels so far and cleared A, B, C, and G so far along with a few of the connected ones.

I have to say I dislike the majority of them so far.

Break target levels- You should be able to miss at least a few without failing.

Defend the orb level- There should be a check point every thirty seconds rather than make you start over.

Grinding levels with targets- You shouldn’t start back at zero if you die.

Level retry- you have to pay for that? No. It should be a one time fee.

Level skipping- I think the cost is too cheap, double it... but make clearing it give you full credit. At least then you can grind if a level is too tedious.

As I said, strongly dislike these levels so far and on the harder ones there is zero sense of satisfaction when clearing them. More of a “the suffering is finally over” feeling.

 

[Cephalobro]

You'll get the hang of it eventually, this mode expects you to display your best skills.

 

[Khalith]

You'll get the hang of it eventually, this mode expects you to display your best skills.

Just about full cleared everything. My opinion hasn’t changed tbh.

 

[vanille987]

The point of this DLC is that you need to be at your best and sometimes display near perfect skills.
Adding some checkpoints in harder levels and make it so you can miss a few undermines this mentallity kinda.

The whole paying for trying and paying for trying again is there so your ‘deaths’ will have consequences rather then a slap on the wrist.
This system could be better but the idea fits with the nature of the DLC.

The last part of your post desribes how a hard difficulty could feel.
I understand but that’s the risk with bringing in a hard difficulty.
You either gonna love or hate it.

Though I found that how you can choose the weapon you want to use in most stages, the difficulty is also based on you.
Some weapons are alot harder to use in certain situations then others hence the better rewards you get from completing the stage with them.
For example, in those ink rail levels where you need to destroy crates, you can pick a shooter for an easy time or challange yourself by picking a boozler.

That are just my cents on how the DLC handeled difficulty though.

 

[MINKUKEL]

The thing about the target and orb levels is that, even though they can be tough, they are very short. Defending an orb only lasts for one and a half minute I think, and most target range levels are like a minute. That's comparable with how far a 'normal' stage would put you back.

I also don't think they should allow you to skip stages while still counting them as cleared. First of all, they're simply not cleared. But also, things like skipping, save states, etc. allow for people to give up and just cheese their way through a game more easily. Unless you do that in a clever way (like, indeed, allowing you to skip without counting it as a clear, or how Celeste does it), you're just gonna encourage players not to give it their all. Players tend to underestimate themselves a bit. Any stage that felt quite frustrating to me, I found wasn't that hard after I gave it another shot or two.

From what I can tell, there's quite a few people who skipped their way to the Octoling unlock, and I think that's just a shame. At least give it a good go.

 

[Dark Sage Walker]

I, personally, loved the Octo Expansion! The levels were interesting and used creative design to explore old objectives in new ways! To be fair, I was not the biggest fan of the defend the orb levels (Girl Power anyone?) and some of the target sniping missions were a bit over the top in that they had little room for error. The idea that a lot of those missions had music that reminded me of Turbo Tunnels from Battletoads did them no favors either. But it must also be stated that this expansion was designed at its heart to be difficult. If there weren't a few design decisions that made it feel NES hard, then it wouldn't have felt so gratifying to clear them! The levels that have no checkpoints are not long and a few attempts should generally allow you to solve the problem at hand.

No, Octo Expansion is not perfect. But then again, what is? An argument could be made for cheesecake, but I think most Diabetics would argue with you about that. The point is that the expansion did what we wanted it to. It gave us some deeper lore into the world, a fresh look into both Pearl and Marina as characters, and allows us to play as Octolings! I thought that the $20 asking price was well worth it! I am sorry to hear that you aren't enjoying it that much, but chin up! Playing as an Octoling is well worth the effort! If anything, at least you aren't trying to clear Battletoads... *Commences crying in the shower*

 

[Gameboy224]

The thing about the target and orb levels is that, even though they can be tough, they are very short. Defending an orb only lasts for one and a half minute I think, and most target range levels are like a minute. That's comparable with how far a 'normal' stage would put you back.

I also don't think they should allow you to skip stages while still counting them as cleared. First of all, they're simply not cleared. But also, things like skipping, save states, etc. allow for people to give up and just cheese their way through a game more easily. Unless you do that in a clever way (like, indeed, allowing you to skip without counting it as a clear, or how Celeste does it), you're just gonna encourage players not to give it their all. Players tend to underestimate themselves a bit. Any stage that felt quite frustrating to me, I found wasn't that hard after I gave it another shot or two.

From what I can tell, there's quite a few people who skipped their way to the Octoling unlock, and I think that's just a shame. At least give it a good go.

The game actually does note which stages you skip. You actually don't get the Mem Cake if you skip a level.

It's a clear in the way you can move on to the next mission, but it isn't a clear in the way you don't actually get the collectible. Which also means you can't unlock each line's gear piece and the secret boss.

 

[MindWanderer]

For the record, I'm not all that great at this game in general (I'm S/A/S/A-), and I was able to clear all of Octo Expansion except the postgame bonus. I'm going through and doing the alternate kits now. So far I've only gotten more than one game over on two or three of the challenges. I haven't cashed done any grinding, and I'm at over 70,000 CQ. So it's challenging but not that challenging.

 

[MINKUKEL]

The game actually does note which stages you skip. You actually don't get the Mem Cake if you skip a level.

Yeah, I know.

It's a clear in the way you can move on to the next mission, but it isn't a clear in the way you don't actually get the collectible. Which also means you can't unlock each line's gear piece and the secret boss.

I mean, you'll find that out quickly enough, probably. And you can kinda guess that too. Otherwise, there would be no penalty at all for skipping.

 

[Khalith]

Well I full cleared all 80 levels last night. Have to say that after doing all of them, I stand by my opinion that it needs more checkpoints.

Also, the hidden boss needs either less hp with the same damage or same hp with less damage. Additionally it should be like every other boss with checkpoints, as in each time you knock it down you get a checkpoint.

Let me also add that in the PVE stuff, the slowdown that happens when your hp is critical is ********.

 

[Gameboy224]

Also, the hidden boss needs either less hp with the same damage or same hp with less damage. Additionally it should be like every other boss with checkpoints, as in each time you knock it down you get a checkpoint.

Let me also add that in the PVE stuff, the slowdown that happens when your hp is critical is ********.

In defense of the hidden boss, they are supposed to be a load of BS, that's half the fun. Like a Kingdom Hearts secret boss, soul crushing, unfair, and requires absolute mastery.

 

[Cephalobro]

Honestly, the Octo Expansion isn't supposed to be easy at all. It's supposed to be hard on the player, that's why there's no checkpoint that restore lives.

 

[Khalith]

Honestly, the Octo Expansion isn't supposed to be easy at all. It's supposed to be hard on the player, that's why there's no checkpoint that restore lives.

It would still be challenging with the with checkpoints. But it’s fine, I’m giving up on the hidden boss until it’s made more balanced/forgiving. If that never happens I’m fine not doing it, I’m not a completionist anyway!

 

[MindWanderer]

Even though I can't beat that boss, I don't think it should be made easier. It's ridiculously hard but definitely possible, and making it easier would take away from the achievement of people who've already done it.

 

[Dark Sage Walker]

I actually went on a bit of a diatribe about that fight over in the Salt thread. I gave some pointers over there that hopefully can help out those of you who are having trouble dealing with the optional final boss.

It would still be challenging with the with checkpoints. But it’s fine, I’m giving up on the hidden boss until it’s made more balanced/forgiving. If that never happens I’m fine not doing it, I’m not a completionist anyway!

The idea of the optional boss isn't that it is a fair challenge. It is supposed to be a completely unfair, overwhelming objective. Like many optional bosses. Sephiroth in Kingdom Hearts comes to mind. As does Rodin in Bayonetta. The point is that they are supposed to be supreme tests of your skill and what you have learned and what you can continue to learn even under that kind of pressure. Sure they are unbalanced and unfair. That's the point! If it were balanced and completely fair, then wouldn't it be a regular boss? Just food for thought.

 

[Khalith]

I actually went on a bit of a diatribe about that fight over in the Salt thread. I gave some pointers over there that hopefully can help out those of you who are having trouble dealing with the optional final boss.



The idea of the optional boss isn't that it is a fair challenge. It is supposed to be a completely unfair, overwhelming objective. Like many optional bosses. Sephiroth in Kingdom Hearts comes to mind. As does Rodin in Bayonetta. The point is that they are supposed to be supreme tests of your skill and what you have learned and what you can continue to learn even under that kind of pressure. Sure they are unbalanced and unfair. That's the point! If it were balanced and completely fair, then wouldn't it be a regular boss? Just food for thought.

No.

To elaborate further sephiroth was fair because you could actively heal yourself. Never played bayonetta but it’s not really the kind of game for me. I don’t play games like it, that is to say where it’s all about building points and combos to maximize your score/combo rating. Also I feel compelled to remind you that bayonetta had checkpoints during its boss fights.

Also, I disagree with the notion that fights shouldn’t be for everyone. There’s no point in making content that only 1% of your player base is going to clear. Also, checkpoints on the hidden boss would keep it fair considering he can kill you in 2-3 hits and his homing grenades in phase 3 are absurd. But ultimately it doesn’t really matter, if they nerf it I’ll try again, if not I’ll never bother.

 

[MindWanderer]

So you're saying they shouldn't have added X rank? Only 1% of players are in it, after all. I'll bet only about 1% of people who buy Mario games beat them 100%, either (the last 2 levels of SM3DW, for instance). A good game will provide fun content and rewards for players with a wide range of skill levels.

 

[Dark Sage Walker]

No.

To elaborate further sephiroth was fair because you could actively heal yourself. Never played bayonetta but it’s not really the kind of game for me. I don’t play games like it, that is to say where it’s all about building points and combos to maximize your score/combo rating. Also I feel compelled to remind you that bayonetta had checkpoints during its boss fights.

Also, I disagree with the notion that fights shouldn’t be for everyone. There’s no point in making content that only 1% of your player base is going to clear. Also, checkpoints on the hidden boss would keep it fair considering he can kill you in 2-3 hits and his homing grenades in phase 3 are absurd. But ultimately it doesn’t really matter, if they nerf it I’ll try again, if not I’ll never bother.

Yes, you could heal yourself, but that wasn't very important if he got you with his attack that brings you to 1 HP (I forget the name of that technique). But it was, ultimately, a test of skill. Also, while there are checkpoints present during regular boss battles in Bayonetta (not many of them but they are there), there are none during the Rodin fight. You just have to fight him in one glorious, bloodsoaked battle to the end! Very similar to this fight.

Now while I can see your point about the idea that more of the player base should be able to access content, I don't think it is a bad thing to create content that caters to a more practiced section of said player base. In games like Dark Souls, Nioh and the like I can understand there being a slightly easier difficulty option to allow people who have a hard time dealing with the games' grueling difficulty to get into the action and learn more about the challenge at hand. This is slightly different however. This is supposed to be an ultimate, final challenge to cap off something that was already rather hard to begin with. How many people do you think got all the Mem Cakes? That is a requirement to even get to the ultimate final battle of the expansion and I can guarantee you that the number is less than 100% of Splatoon's player base. But that is kind of getting to my point. Not everyone is interested in that to begin with. Some people just wanted to get to the playable Octolings and leave it at that. I can respect that. Some people wanted more out of it so there was some new gear added to allow the Completionists among us to get more out of our dedication to the goal. Others yet wanted something else. A cherry on top to make the whole experience something to talk about. Thus, the hidden final battle. It would only appeal to even a small percentage of the player base as it stands so making it soul-crushingly difficult makes it more of a challenge for sure. But it makes it something else. Something that you wouldn't get by having the W be something that you can slog through simply based on a law of averages. It's rewarding. I don't mean the Golden Toothpick. That's just a piece of head gear with Special Charge Up on it. Those are a dime a dozen. I mean personally rewarding. The feeling of beating a challenge that was so clearly stacked against you is actually very psychologically rewarding and there is little else like it. That Dopamine rush that you get from the feeling of success over seemingly insurmountable odds is simply beautiful. It makes the final encounter something that will be discussed, as we are doing now. It's not just a segment of game play. It's an experience. Something that will be remembered in the future. It's very similar to the Dark Link fight Zelda 2. The difference being that this is optional. It's nothing that you need to clear to have a full experience or to acquire something great that would give you a gameplay advantage, hence why the piece of gear you get from it is a throw away. But it appeals to a certain sect of the audience that will remember this fight for a while, and that's why it is here. Because it is a mountain to climb. I understand that it is frustrating, but it is far from impossible. I implore you to keep at it. Figuring out all the little nuances to the fight and putting all of that together into one great and glorious victory is a feeling like nothing else in this game. Don't give up on it! If I can clear it, so can you!

 

[Dewnose]

The game actually does note which stages you skip. You actually don't get the Mem Cake if you skip a level.

It's a clear in the way you can move on to the next mission, but it isn't a clear in the way you don't actually get the collectible. Which also means you can't unlock each line's gear piece and the secret boss.

You can still get the gear, living proof of that (had all the gear before I cleared the levels I skipped to get the secret boss)

For the record, I'm not all that great at this game in general (I'm S/A/S/A-), and I was able to clear all of Octo Expansion except the postgame bonus. I'm going through and doing the alternate kits now. So far I've only gotten more than one game over on two or three of the challenges. I haven't cashed done any grinding, and I'm at over 70,000 CQ. So it's challenging but not that challenging.

Yeah, true. I’m not much better (S+ 0 or 1 in all) and I managed to beat it without hours of grinding.

 

[Khalith]

So you're saying they shouldn't have added X rank? Only 1% of players are in it, after all.

Rankings aren’t really a fair comparison. A better example would be something like “we’re working on a series of 50 new maps that only Rank X players can play on!” In which case that would be stupid if they were making that many maps for that tiny group of players.

It's very similar to the Dark Link fight Zelda 2.

For the record, I only ever did that fight crouching in the corner and stabbing him. Fighting him the other way is tedious and dull, it is a LOT
more enjoyable for me to get that stupid boss down as quickly and efficiently as possible.

I implore you to keep at it. Figuring out all the little nuances to the fight and putting all of that together into one great and glorious victory is a feeling like nothing else in this game. Don't give up on it! If I can clear it, so can you!

I appreciate the sentiment, but no, I gave up on it. Also, I want do want to make one thing clear for you, when I beat a super hard boss there is no thrill of victory or feeling of glory. Only the feeling of "I'm glad my suffering is finally over." Kind of like being stabbed repeatedly and then it finally stops. For me, it's only the relief of it finally being over. Or in this case, realizing that subjecting myself to that punishment wasn't fun and I'm a lot happier after giving up! Like I said, *if* they ever reduce the difficulty of that fight I'll try again, until then, I'm not going anywhere near it.