Squad Composition Meta

[GamingWarthog]

i definitely agree. the charger is only going to be viable for very specific compositions on very specific maps.

If there's a variation of it with the right stats, I think a charger type weapon could see usage as a shut down tool in Turf War. Definitely not the standard charger though, unless there's a perk capable of making it useful and equipment isn't banned standard charger is most likely going to be trash tier. But I wouldn't count out the entire weapon class just yet, even if Turf War is probably the worst mode for them.

 

[WydrA]

Another interesting thing to think about - do you guys think it's a safer bet to constantly keep trying to find spots to cover with your team's ink, or to lock down certain areas that will get you big percent leads and try and hold them down (like north).
I personally feel like the second could be viable on maps like saltspray rig but would require some research to know which parts are most important. Y'know, figure out how much percent someplace like north is wirth.
Actually now I'm thinking about it, that's probably some pretty crucial research we should look into when the game launches anyway. That way you could add up percent and know for certain if you're winning or losing before you actually finish the match.

 

[LittlestMinish]

I think the best thing thing to do at least in casual games or against "bads" is the capitalizing on opponents' tunnel vision, and making the most of your time. With cohesive plans, it'll be about holding down the most easily defensible and worth the most. We're talking about north and south of saltspray and east and west on walleye. I'll be looking for graphics or charts about the percentage.

 

[GamingWarthog]

idk, I just really feel like charger has no chance of making use of north the way splatter does. to a splatter north is perfect imo. t gives you unmatched mobility, hiding and ability to spread a heck of a lot of ink.
Charger could use the high ground well, but the inability to quickly spread ink bites them in the butt. They cant cover almost al of north within a couple seconds like splatter can, and they can't cover the boxes either, which means they're not nearly as slippery. They would need someone with them to gain that type of mobility, in which case it's kind of pointless. Why send two men to do a one man job?

The teammate who spreads the ink could super jump to another location once they're done with the north though. Of course the Charger in this scenario would still have a harder time regaining control if they lose it, but the superior range means it would keep control better than the Splattershot, so it's a trade off.

 

[WydrA]

I think the best thing thing to do at least in casual games or against "bads" is the capitalizing on opponents' tunnel vision, and making the most of your time. With cohesive plans, it'll be about holding down the most easily defensible and worth the most. We're talking about north and south of saltspray and east and west on walleye. I'll be looking for graphics or charts about the percentage.

Maybe when release comes around I'll make an official data gathering thread where we can compile all that sort of information.

The teammate who spreads the ink could super jump to another location once they're done with the north though. Of course the Charger in this scenario would still have a harder time regaining control if they lose it, but the superior range means it would keep control better than the Splattershot, so it's a trade off.

Superjump from spawn? Wouldn't that require someone already being in the alternate occasion?

 

[FunkyLobster]

Another interesting thing to think about - do you guys think it's a safer bet to constantly keep trying to find spots to cover with your team's ink, or to lock down certain areas that will get you big percent leads and try and hold them down (like north).
I personally feel like the second could be viable on maps like saltspray rig but would require some research to know which parts are most important. Y'know, figure out how much percent someplace like north is wirth.
Actually now I'm thinking about it, that's probably some pretty crucial research we should look into when the game launches anyway. That way you could add up percent and know for certain if you're winning or losing before you actually finish the match.

absolutely the second options

tactically securing postions and keeping the other team pinned is the best way to reap long term benefits from a match, since you're covering your secure areas with ink and keeping their secure placed to a minimum

just going into the game spraying random areas with ink is good, sure, but its not as good of an option and keep open areas like the north and south of saltspray covered in your own ink and keeping them out of it and locking them in their general spawn area

 

[WydrA]

So since we all think the latter is the way to go maybe we should be look at team comp from a more capture the flag sort of perspective?

 

[FunkyLobster]

So since we all think the latter is the way to go maybe we should be look at team comp from a more capture the flag sort of perspective?

what do you mean?

 

[Ranias]

I think that Turf War games should be played in phases, something like:

1st phase (first 30 secs): Feel out the other team's strategy and prepare to secure key points.
2nd phase: Secure and keep key points on the map that give your team a dominating position.
3rd phase (last 30 secs): Focus solely on cleaning up and painting as much as possible.

 

[WydrA]

what do you mean?

I mean some of our ideas for composition have been based around the way the game is currently played. Think of it as compositions that can control specific areas each may be a better way to go about it.
Not saying that's how they've all been, it's come up in some of the comps, I was just thinking maybe we should make it a more central idea?saying maybe it's something to focus on more centrally in future comps people come up with.

 

[WydrA]

I think that Turf War games should be played in phases, something like:

1st phase (first 30 secs): Feel out the other team's strategy out and prepare to secure key points.
2nd phase: Secure and keep key points on the map that give your team a dominating position.
3rd phase (last 30 secs): Focus solely on cleaning up and painting as much as possible.

Maybe last thirty it would be better to do a sort of split attack defense, where half the team tries to cover and the other half stays back ad tries to snipe off the other team from claiming their turf?

 

[Ranias]

Maybe last thirty it would be better to do a sort of split attack defense, where half the team tries to cover and the other half stays back ad tries to snipe off the other team from claiming their turf?

Maybe, I think it's pretty important for everyone to be alive and in position to get that last push in if you need it. It probably depends on how well your game is going.

I guess if it's a split attack style, the ones hanging back would be the sniper types, or whoever can't get very good paint coverage.

 

[FunkyLobster]

I mean some of our ideas for composition have been based around the way the game is currently played. Think of it as compositions that can control specific areas each may be a better way to go about it.
Not saying that's how they've all been, it's come up in some of the comps, I was just thinking maybe we should make it a more central idea?saying maybe it's something to focus on more centrally in future comps people come up with.

that's what everyone's been saying in this thread :P

it's a better idea to secure and fight for high value areas (like north and south on saltspray, or mid in warehouse) than to cut your losses and go for lesser value areas. this is why i say 3 shooters/1 roller is a good setup: you have a roller that can work on inking the flanks and overlooked areas, and 2-3 players getting most the work done on higher value areas, with the 3rd player leaving it up to their discretion if they should protect the roller and help them cover the flank or go to the duo and claim larger territory

 

[WydrA]

that's what everyone's been saying in this thread :p

it's a better idea to secure and fight for high value areas (like north and south on saltspray, or mid in warehouse) than to cut your losses and go for lesser value areas. this is why i say 3 shooters/1 roller is a good setup: you have a roller that can work on inking the flanks and overlooked areas, and 2-3 players getting most the work done on higher value areas, with the 3rd player leaving it up to their discretion if they should protect the roller and help them cover the flank or go to the duo and claim larger territory

Yeah I guess people have being saying kind of a lot. My bad :P

Maybe, I think it's pretty important for everyone to be alive and in position to get that last push in if you need it. It probably depends on how well your game is going.

I guess if it's a split attack style, the ones hanging back would be the sniper types, or whoever can't get very good paint coverage.

I wa definitely thinking sniper types as well. What's better is they make a decent counter for rollers, who would do the most damage in the last 30.

 

[GamingWarthog]

For SR I think more focus should be put on securing the north platform. Both teams have a quick path to the south platform where only the Chargeshot can hurt them right before they reach it, and its easy to just camp and throw out bombs instead of jumping down and fighting. Plus the spawn point lets you superjump out and come back relatively quickly with extremely minimal risk of being killed before reaching a good spot to camp. Overall it just feels too easily contested to put much focus on, I have a feeling the north is more valuable in terms of percentage anyway. Not to mention fighting from the north to the south is preferable to the other way around, as you have the higher ground. The two sniper nests facing the north are the one problem exclusively faced by securing the north first, and those sniper nests are far from safe.

In other words, a team who can quickly get the high ground and take advantage of it would probably be ideal for Saltspray Rig. So Roller-Splattershot-Splattershot-Splattershot JR if you want to be safe or Roller-Splattershot-Chargeshot-Splattershot JR if you want to take a higher risk for the possibility higher reward. So in other words what FunkyLobster already said.

I feel like the Orbital Strike special ability is going to be a gamechanger for Saltspray Rig, since it can fired anywhere and there are two important spots at the opposite ends of the map. I'll try using a weapon with that ability on SR and see if I'm right.

Superjump from spawn? Wouldn't that require someone already being in the alternate occasion?

The Superjump would be from North to somewhere else. The strat would go like this: Roller and Charger rush to the north > Roller spreads ink while Charger gets to the highest point > Roller Superjumps to another teammate or spawn point while Charger stays behind to maintain control of north. Of course it doesn't matter if the whole team is focused on locking down the north area since there would be no need to leave it, but if the team's plan is to spread out and secure as much turf as possible it could work.

 

[WydrA]

For SR I think more focus should be put on securing the north platform. Both teams have a quick path to the south platform where only the Chargeshot can hurt them right before they reach it, and its easy to just camp and throw out bombs instead of jumping down and fighting. Plus the spawn point lets you superjump out and come back relatively quickly with extremely minimal risk of being killed before reaching a good spot to camp. Overall it just feels too easily contested to put much focus on, I have a feeling the north is more valuable in terms of percentage anyway. Not to mention fighting from the north to the south is preferable to the other way around, as you have the higher ground. The two sniper nests facing the north are the one problem exclusively faced by securing the north first, and those sniper nests are far from safe.

In other words, a team who can quickly get the high ground and take advantage of it would probably be ideal for Saltspray Rig. So Roller-Splattershot-Splattershot-Splattershot JR if you want to be safe or Roller-Splattershot-Chargeshot-Splattershot JR if you want to take a higher risk for the possibility higher reward. So in other words what FunkyLobster already said.

I feel like the Orbital Strike special ability is going to be a gamechanger for Saltspray Rig, since it can fired anywhere and there are two important spots at the opposite ends of the map. I'll try using a weapon with that ability on SR and see if I'm right.



The Superjump would be from North to somewhere else. The strat would go like this: Roller and Charger rush to the north > Roller spreads ink while Charger gets to the highest point > Roller Superjumps to another teammate or spawn point while Charger stays behind to maintain control of north. Of course it doesn't matter if the whole team is focused on locking down the north area since there would be no need to leave it, but if the team's plan is to spread out and secure as much turf as possible it could work.

Never even considered the fact that north to south is basically a game of king of the hill. This is probably the build I would use as well.

Although I would leave on eof the splatter shots to defend north and take a roller for south since like I said before I think splattershot is perfect for north and as Minish said (and I agree) south is really good for roller. Becomes very hard to avoid since all the spaces are only slightly bigger than his roller/brush.

 

[Endymion]

Personally for turf wars, 2 Rollers and 2 splatters would be ideal.
The support a charger can give is pretty lackluster when splatdashing will reach farther targets away + roller covering more than the charger could ever do.

 

[flc]

not entirely sure why people are putting so much emphasis on rollers.

my initial impression from looking at the mechanics was that the game's focus is on movement and ink control. aim isn't that important, and every other factor (territory control, momentum, etc) stems from these two factors. rollers aren't great at either. it might seem like they're good for the latter because of how much ground they cover, but let's be real here, that's mainly because it's almost impossible to be bad at using a roller to spread ink. what you're observing is a roller being used the only way it can be while the projectile weapons are being used badly by people who have had a grand total of zero minutes in the lab figuring out how to spread ink properly with other weapons.

now before everyone loses their collective heads, consider that the roller has basically no way of spreading ink long range outside of specials (which their high ink consumption and less squid form use renders inefficient). meanwhile, every other weapon in the demo is able to quickly and easily set up ink trails just about anywhere. perhaps having a roller to deal with tight corridors would be nice, but having more than one kills your ability to move in a fight. with proper ink spreading and movement you can very quickly and easily strafe around people using just about any projectile weapon. it gives you tactical options, and from my experience with shooters, tactical options tend to imply better weapons.

this is all particularly important when you try to make a comp around a team with rollers in it. if you run 2 roller/1 sniper/1 ar, what do you do when your ranged players get bopped? respawn timers might not seem that long, but considering how fast a couple people could coat an entire area (all the while building special), if you're stuck with two immobile players and nowhere for them to go, you're just going to get specials and secondaries chained on you over and over again. one roller--again, how would you regain momentum when you start dropping?

naturally, this is coming from someone who also spent zero minutes in the lab, but I have no reason to suspect that rollers would be good beyond certain specific circumstances. perhaps I'm overplaying how well other weapons can do what rollers can, but I'm finding it hard to see how the lack of range and movement options could possibly be made up for.

 

[FunkyLobster]

not entirely sure why people are putting so much emphasis on rollers.

my initial impression from looking at the mechanics was that the game's focus is on movement and ink control. aim isn't that important, and every other factor (territory control, momentum, etc) stems from these two factors. rollers aren't great at either. it might seem like they're good for the latter because of how much ground they cover, but let's be real here, that's mainly because it's almost impossible to be bad at using a roller to spread ink. what you're observing is a roller being used the only way it can be while the projectile weapons are being used badly by people who have had a grand total of zero minutes in the lab figuring out how to spread ink properly with other weapons.

now before everyone loses their collective heads, consider that the roller has basically no way of spreading ink long range outside of specials (which their high ink consumption and less squid form use renders inefficient). meanwhile, every other weapon in the demo is able to quickly and easily set up ink trails just about anywhere. perhaps having a roller to deal with tight corridors would be nice, but having more than one kills your ability to move in a fight. with proper ink spreading and movement you can very quickly and easily strafe around people using just about any projectile weapon. it gives you tactical options, and from my experience with shooters, tactical options tend to imply better weapons.

this is all particularly important when you try to make a comp around a team with rollers in it. if you run 2 roller/1 sniper/1 ar, what do you do when your ranged players get bopped? respawn timers might not seem that long, but considering how fast a couple people could coat an entire area (all the while building special), if you're stuck with two immobile players and nowhere for them to go, you're just going to get specials and secondaries chained on you over and over again. one roller--again, how would you regain momentum when you start dropping?

naturally, this is coming from someone who also spent zero minutes in the lab, but I have no reason to suspect that rollers would be good beyond certain specific circumstances. perhaps I'm overplaying how well other weapons can do what rollers can, but I'm finding it hard to see how the lack of range and movement options could possibly be made up for.

YES, this is why i think teams running more than one roller at a time don't really stand much of a chance. people seem to forget that the roller doesn't set the standard for ink coverage; it's just that it excels within that field. shooter type weapons are more than capable of covering an area in ink in a small amount of time, especially if you have more than one player. when you're using a roller, you're basically forfeiting any chance you have at winning a fight unless you have an outside advantage, like coming from behind or above them. the roller is still a valid choice, but really, use it and moderation and don't use more than one in a competitive team. having more than one is just diminishing returns.

 

[Roksys]

not entirely sure why people are putting so much emphasis on rollers.

my initial impression from looking at the mechanics was that the game's focus is on movement and ink control. aim isn't that important, and every other factor (territory control, momentum, etc) stems from these two factors. rollers aren't great at either. it might seem like they're good for the latter because of how much ground they cover, but let's be real here, that's mainly because it's almost impossible to be bad at using a roller to spread ink. what you're observing is a roller being used the only way it can be while the projectile weapons are being used badly by people who have had a grand total of zero minutes in the lab figuring out how to spread ink properly with other weapons.
etc.

That could change when different weapons come into play. The inkbrush seems much more geared toward tossing ink than laying it down, which may make a pretty big difference. Who knows what other types we haven't seen yet?