The Proper Application of Damage Up.

Gear The Proper Application of Damage Up.

Grimlai

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Grimlai submitted a new guide:

The Proper Application of Damage Up. - Damage Up is not exactly one of the best named abilities. Let's see how to use it right.

MYTH: Damage Up increases your core "damage" by decreasing your shots to splat.

FACT: The above myth is busted. No amount of Damage Up will decrease the amount of shots it takes to get a splat. The NUMBERS of the damage increase, sure, but they can't be divided into less shots.

Well, that's just great. If Damage Up doesn't help you splat your foes faster, then how DOES it become effective? Well, there are a few things that Damage Up does help you with.

First of all, Damage Up and Defense...
Read more about this guide...
 

dukevin

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I would like to see how much the kill radius of blasters are effected by 3 main damage ups
 

Grimlai

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Grimlai updated The Proper Application of Damage Up. with a new update entry:

Video Update? What the Carp? (8/19/15)

Added a video which demonstrates the effects of damage up, including some things that I did not expect. That video is here, and is open to the public. Also, this channel was made with the express purpose of more of this kind of thing in the future, so expect more where that came from!

Also, I will be editing the written version with some of the things that I found in the video.
Read the rest of this update entry...
 

SquiddiamFancyson

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Hey man some nice work, I noticed on one of your reviews that you wanted to know more about burst bombs with damage up. There's a section in my guide with kill thresholds involving damage up if you're interested. I'll give you a rate when home but good job.
 

Grimlai

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Hey man some nice work, I noticed on one of your reviews that you wanted to know more about burst bombs with damage up. There's a section in my guide with kill thresholds involving damage up if you're interested. I'll give you a rate when home but good job.
Thank you! I actually did a video on some of the things that I mentioned in this video, and adjusted the guide according to my findings. Burst Bombs was one of the topics that I covered in that video (since I posted the review response in question before I made the video), so I would recommend taking a look. But for the TLDR, I found that Damage Up decreases the number of bombs needed for a splat by one if you have at least 1 damage up ability.

As for your guide, though, I read it after I saw your post and found some good stuff in there! I definitely saw some things in there that I want to implement in my gameplay. A good job to you as well!
 

SquiddiamFancyson

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Thank you! I actually did a video on some of the things that I mentioned in this video, and adjusted the guide according to my findings. Burst Bombs was one of the topics that I covered in that video (since I posted the review response in question before I made the video), so I would recommend taking a look. But for the TLDR, I found that Damage Up decreases the number of bombs needed for a splat by one if you have at least 1 damage up ability.

As for your guide, though, I read it after I saw your post and found some good stuff in there! I definitely saw some things in there that I want to implement in my gameplay. A good job to you as well!
Took another look, the video is a really nice addition and something I'd love to do for my guide eventually.

Only constructive criticism I'd give is that you don't clarify what you mean when you say damage up reduces the amount of burst bombs required for a splat. Your guide mentions them normally being a 4 hit KO without damage up, when they're a 2 hit KO assuming they're both direct hits. What you're referring to is most likely a combination of splash damage hits. You're right that damage up is great for burst bombs, but it isn't clear from your phrasing how the shots are reduced by the 3 subs. I didn't let that impact the rating though since I know you're still doing updates and I thought that overall there's some great info there.
 

Grimlai

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Took another look, the video is a really nice addition and something I'd love to do for my guide eventually.

Only constructive criticism I'd give is that you don't clarify what you mean when you say damage up reduces the amount of burst bombs required for a splat. Your guide mentions them normally being a 4 hit KO without damage up, when they're a 2 hit KO assuming they're both direct hits. What you're referring to is most likely a combination of splash damage hits. You're right that damage up is great for burst bombs, but it isn't clear from your phrasing how the shots are reduced by the 3 subs. I didn't let that impact the rating though since I know you're still doing updates and I thought that overall there's some great info there.
Good to know! Sorry about the phrasing; I guess what I meant to say is that, if all your bombs do indirect hits, Damage Up will decrease the number of bombs you need for a splat.

Also, I recommend the VC500 for recording videos like this; It's the one I used for the videos and, while it can be a pain in the butt to set up, the results are worth it. Just don't use the driver; the included driver is worthless.
 

LMG

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Fun Fact: all blasters that can splat in one direct hit will splat an enemy on a near miss without Damage Ups (but I'd still suggest Damage Ups to increase the distance between the explosion and the enemy where you can achieve this). Also, Burst Bombs can splat in two direct hits (although I can't remember if they did 60 or 70 damage in that situation)
 

dukevin

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Fun Fact: all blasters that can splat in one direct hit will splat an enemy on a near miss without Damage Ups (but I'd still suggest Damage Ups to increase the distance between the explosion and the enemy where you can achieve this).
Yeah that's what im wondering. How much can you miss due to damage ups?
 

Grimlai

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Hello!

While I CAN confirm that Damage Up increases the leniency towards missing on blasters, I don't know how much. It is only a minor inkrese, though, but it is noticeable.
 

PHYTO-1

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this is a known fact from charger users that 3 mains and 2 subs will increase the uncharged rapid fire to 50.05 dmg
 

Grimlai

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this is a known fact from charger users that 3 mains and 2 subs will increase the uncharged rapid fire to 50.05 dmg
Really? I thought Damage Up capped out at 3 mains. Good to know!
 

Grimlai

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MrL1193

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All right, I said in the review section that I would explain my thoughts in detail, so here they are. I hope the wall of text doesn't crush anyone. :P



In your example about Damage Up and Defense Up, the numbers you chose don't quite illustrate your point accurately. The game actually does measure damage numbers beyond whole numbers (and possibly even beyond tenths--more on that later), so 99.64 would not simply round up to 100. This is a very minor error, but I felt obligated to point it out.

I personally would not simply dismiss Defense Up as a "rare ability" for the simple reason that some players focus on fashion rather than abilities when choosing gear. These players are unlikely to have a large amount of Defense Up, but it's not uncommon to see, for example, 1 main and 1 sub of it. It's something that I feel is worth keeping in mind.

With regard to Burst Bombs, I think it would be helpful for you to include the numbers on the different hitboxes they have. With no Damage Up or Defense Up in play, they can deal 60 damage (direct hit), 35 damage (near miss), or 20 damage (graze), and nothing in between. (In theory, this means that the base damage is enough to splat with 3 indirect hits, though that's unlikely.) This is important because it creates distinct thresholds of what you can do with Burst Bombs, especially when you use them in combination with your weapon's main attack. (Again, I'll explain more about this later.)

Regarding Chargers, I believe I've seen it mentioned somewhere on these boards that even with 3 main Damage Up abilities, the Squiffer's minimum charge to splat is only lessened by 1 frame. Take that with a grain of salt, but if it's correct, it would mean it's probably not worth using Damage Up with the Squiffer.

You're right that most Shooters don't really benefit from Damage Up, but there are a couple exceptions that I believe are worth pointing out. The .52 Gal and the Splash-O-Matic, unlike other shooters, can have their hits to splat affected by just a single Defense Up main ability, and, as I said before, it's actually not uncommon to encounter that amount of Defense Up. As such, I believe that preemptive Damage Up is actually useful for those two weapons (especially the .52 Gal, since the 2-shot splat is its main selling point). The Splattershot may also be worth noting, since it can be affected by 2 main abilities or 1 main and 3 sub abilities of Defense Up. It is possible to incorporate this amount of Defense Up into an Ink Resistance + Cold Blooded/Ninja Squid set without an unreasonable amount of re-rolling, and since the Tentatek Splattershot is so popular, I could see a few serious players deliberately crafting such sets to counter it. (I actually have one myself, though it's not quite perfect yet.)

Now, I mentioned earlier that there was something I thought you could add that would be helpful. Unlike other abilities, with Damage Up, the exact amount of the ability you have can actually be quite important due to its effects on your hits to splat. As such, I think it would be very helpful if you included some thresholds of what sort of things you are capable of with varying amounts of Damage Up; this would help people to figure out exactly how much Damage Up is right for them.

I've spent some time at the testing range figuring out some thresholds I've found useful for my own sets. (Remember that 1 main ability is slightly stronger than 3 sub abilities.)

.52 Gal:

1 sub Damage Up = Maintain 2-shot splat vs. 1 main Defense Up
4 sub Damage Up = Maintain 2-shot splat vs. 2 main Defense Up
1 main + 3 sub Damage Up = Maintain 2-shot splat vs. 3 main Defense Up

Splash-O-Matic:

1 sub Damage Up = Maintain 4-shot splat vs. 1 main Defense Up
4 sub Damage Up = Maintain 4-shot splat vs. 2 main Defense Up
1 main + 3 sub Damage Up = Maintain 4-shot splat vs. 3 main Defense Up

Splattershot (shots only):

2 sub Damage Up = Maintain 3-shot splat vs. 2 main Defense Up
1 Main Damage Up = Maintain 3-shot splat vs. 3 main Defense Up (Note: Although the testing range dummy shows only 33.3 damage for a single shot, 3 shots will somehow add up to 100.0 and splat it--hence why I said the game seems to measure damage beyond even tenths.)

Splattershot (shots + Burst Bomb, assuming no Defense Up):

2 sub Damage Up = Splat with direct Burst Bomb hit + 1 shot
1 Main Damage Up = Splat with minimum Burst Bomb Graze + 2 shots

Slosher (slosh + Burst Bomb, assuming no Defense Up):

1 Main + 1 sub Damage Up = Splat with minimum Burst Bomb Graze + 1 slosh (Splat with Burst Bomb near miss + 1 slosh is possible without Damage Up.)



Again, sorry about the wall of text; I just genuinely want to help, and I believe that this guide has potential, provided that you have the will to refine it. I hope what I've written here will be helpful in some way.
 

Grimlai

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All right, I said in the review section that I would explain my thoughts in detail, so here they are. I hope the wall of text doesn't crush anyone. :p

A:
In your example about Damage Up and Defense Up, the numbers you chose don't quite illustrate your point accurately. The game actually does measure damage numbers beyond whole numbers (and possibly even beyond tenths--more on that later), so 99.64 would not simply round up to 100. This is a very minor error, but I felt obligated to point it out.

I personally would not simply dismiss Defense Up as a "rare ability" for the simple reason that some players focus on fashion rather than abilities when choosing gear. These players are unlikely to have a large amount of Defense Up, but it's not uncommon to see, for example, 1 main and 1 sub of it. It's something that I feel is worth keeping in mind.

B:
With regard to Burst Bombs, I think it would be helpful for you to include the numbers on the different hitboxes they have. With no Damage Up or Defense Up in play, they can deal 60 damage (direct hit), 35 damage (near miss), or 20 damage (graze), and nothing in between. (In theory, this means that the base damage is enough to splat with 3 indirect hits, though that's unlikely.) This is important because it creates distinct thresholds of what you can do with Burst Bombs, especially when you use them in combination with your weapon's main attack. (Again, I'll explain more about this later.)

C:
Regarding Chargers, I believe I've seen it mentioned somewhere on these boards that even with 3 main Damage Up abilities, the Squiffer's minimum charge to splat is only lessened by 1 frame. Take that with a grain of salt, but if it's correct, it would mean it's probably not worth using Damage Up with the Squiffer.

D:
You're right that most Shooters don't really benefit from Damage Up, but there are a couple exceptions that I believe are worth pointing out. The .52 Gal and the Splash-O-Matic, unlike other shooters, can have their hits to splat affected by just a single Defense Up main ability, and, as I said before, it's actually not uncommon to encounter that amount of Defense Up. As such, I believe that preemptive Damage Up is actually useful for those two weapons (especially the .52 Gal, since the 2-shot splat is its main selling point). The Splattershot may also be worth noting, since it can be affected by 2 main abilities or 1 main and 3 sub abilities of Defense Up. It is possible to incorporate this amount of Defense Up into an Ink Resistance + Cold Blooded/Ninja Squid set without an unreasonable amount of re-rolling, and since the Tentatek Splattershot is so popular, I could see a few serious players deliberately crafting such sets to counter it. (I actually have one myself, though it's not quite perfect yet.)

E:
Now, I mentioned earlier that there was something I thought you could add that would be helpful. Unlike other abilities, with Damage Up, the exact amount of the ability you have can actually be quite important due to its effects on your hits to splat. As such, I think it would be very helpful if you included some thresholds of what sort of things you are capable of with varying amounts of Damage Up; this would help people to figure out exactly how much Damage Up is right for them.
I've spent some time at the testing range figuring out some thresholds I've found useful for my own sets. (Remember that 1 main ability is slightly stronger than 3 sub abilities.)

.52 Gal:

1 sub Damage Up = Maintain 2-shot splat vs. 1 main Defense Up
4 sub Damage Up = Maintain 2-shot splat vs. 2 main Defense Up
1 main + 3 sub Damage Up = Maintain 2-shot splat vs. 3 main Defense Up

Splash-O-Matic:

1 sub Damage Up = Maintain 4-shot splat vs. 1 main Defense Up
4 sub Damage Up = Maintain 4-shot splat vs. 2 main Defense Up
1 main + 3 sub Damage Up = Maintain 4-shot splat vs. 3 main Defense Up

Splattershot (shots only):

2 sub Damage Up = Maintain 3-shot splat vs. 2 main Defense Up
1 Main Damage Up = Maintain 3-shot splat vs. 3 main Defense Up (Note: Although the testing range dummy shows only 33.3 damage for a single shot, 3 shots will somehow add up to 100.0 and splat it--hence why I said the game seems to measure damage beyond even tenths.)

Splattershot (shots + Burst Bomb, assuming no Defense Up):

2 sub Damage Up = Splat with direct Burst Bomb hit + 1 shot
1 Main Damage Up = Splat with minimum Burst Bomb Graze + 2 shots

Slosher (slosh + Burst Bomb, assuming no Defense Up):

1 Main + 1 sub Damage Up = Splat with minimum Burst Bomb Graze + 1 slosh (Splat with Burst Bomb near miss + 1 slosh is possible without Damage Up.)


Again, sorry about the wall of text; I just genuinely want to help, and I believe that this guide has potential, provided that you have the will to refine it. I hope what I've written here will be helpful in some way.
First of all, I took the liberty of organizing your post so that I could reply to it in a more efficient and effective way.

Second of all, here are my responses to each and every one of your queries.

A: I see your point, and will update the guide accordingly. I admit, you are right on this one when it comes to Defense Up being somewhat common; HOWEVER, Damage Up actually gives around 9% bonus to damage instead of the 6% that I gave in the guide (the 6% being about the bottom end of the spectrum) so at MINIMUM it will be less than 1 damage away from a kill, thus me saying that they cancel each other out is effectively true.

B: I had a very nice person comment earlier on this guide with a more indepth guide on Burst Bombs. If you want to see what Burst Bombs can do and how to work with them, check out his guide. This guide is just a very basic overview of how you can use Damage Up, not how you should use Burst Bombs.

C: Yeah, I honestly think this is true. The Squiffer's main draw is its insane charge times, which would make the point of Damage Up on Chargers - to reduce charge time to kill - practically pointless. Still, Squiffers, like all other chargers, can get less than lethal, not to mention that they still can do uncharged shots like other chargers, and thus Damage Up is not comPLETELY useless.

D: This is not a difference of Shots to kill being changed purely because of more damage. This is a case of Damage Up negating Defense Up, to which you can see my reply in A.

E: Again, this is a basic guide, not a guide to help determine how much damage up is right for you. This guide's point is to show you how to use an underrated gear ability in new and interesting ways. It is NOT to throw numbers at the readers/players and see what sticks. The same goes for the video; a general outline of the basic effects of Damage Up. I trust my readers/players to be able to test their own gear and see what they want to run, and this guide is just for me to demonstrate some of the basic effects of Damage Up.

In the end, I will update the guide with some of the things that I agreed with, but there are things that you mentioned that I felt like I had to get off my chest. I apologize for replying in such a manner, but I felt like it had to be done. I feel like there were a lot of good things you had to say, but I also feel like there were some things that I had to explain why they weren't in the guide.
 

Vintagestep

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The guide is really helpful, I was wondering how it works with secondary weapons more than burst bombs, Sometimes I get damage and don't die when I'm near one, I was wondering how damage up affect this, mainly the classic splat bomb.
 

Grimlai

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The guide is really helpful, I was wondering how it works with secondary weapons more than burst bombs, Sometimes I get damage and don't die when I'm near one, I was wondering how damage up affect this, mainly the classic splat bomb.
That I don't know, but I presume that they would be affected by damage up for the same reason that blasters are affected by damage up.
 

PHYTO-1

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The guide is really helpful, I was wondering how it works with secondary weapons more than burst bombs, Sometimes I get damage and don't die when I'm near one, I was wondering how damage up affect this, mainly the classic splat bomb.
bombs have two hit boxes. near or far.

near is a guaranteed OHKO at 100+ dmg, far only does base 30 dmg. you can raise the 30 dmg up but its not worth it. (seekers do 20 dmg)

and as for the sprinkler, it caps at 33.3 retaining its hits to kill.

damage up also works on specials. but its not really useful unless youre using burst bomb rush.
it can also (very very slightly) increase the effective kill range on inkstrikes, but you shouldn't be using inkstrikes as a means of getting kills.


someone also mentioned the kill radius on blasters:

the outer kill radius will always be the same. for luna, ranged, and blasters - the weakest blast you can do does 50 dmg. guaranteeing a 2HKO on blasts. the rapid blaster does 30 dmg for a 4HKO. i would only recommend running one dmg main in case someone has a defense sub to help retain the hits to kill.

you can do 100+ dmg with very close indirect hits (key word VERY CLOSE). it is not really worth imo.
 

Grimlai

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bombs have two hit boxes. near or far.

near is a guaranteed OHKO at 100+ dmg, far only does base 30 dmg. you can raise the 30 dmg up but its not worth it. (seekers do 20 dmg)

and as for the sprinkler, it caps at 33.3 retaining its hits to kill.

damage up also works on specials. but its not really useful unless youre using burst bomb rush.
it can also (very very slightly) increase the effective kill range on inkstrikes, but you shouldn't be using inkstrikes as a means of getting kills.


someone also mentioned the kill radius on blasters:

the outer kill radius will always be the same. for luna, ranged, and blasters - the weakest blast you can do does 50 dmg. guaranteeing a 2HKO on blasts. the rapid blaster does 30 dmg for a 4HKO. i would only recommend running one dmg main in case someone has a defense sub to help retain the hits to kill.

you can do 100+ dmg with very close indirect hits (key word VERY CLOSE). it is not really worth imo.
Thank you for clearing this up! :)
 

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