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Future buffs and nerfs

NeoSeth

Senior Squid
Joined
Nov 14, 2015
Messages
74
Main weapons:

The .52 gal should have to try to 2HKO people. It's firerate is high and it's range is definitely not terrible, so being able to kill with two stray shots is a little crazy.

But I really strongly believe that Damage Up should not reduce charge time on chargers. Range is super powerful in this game, as is having the high ground. Chargers position themselves to have both of these (as they should), and being able to then mitigate what should be their glaring weakness in close quarters is absurd. This is especially noticeable with standard E-liters, who can spam extremely powerful Burst Bombs without having to sacrifice ANYTHING about their loadout. Running Damage Up has no opportunity cost for them, so why wouldn't they run all the Damage Up they can? It creates an unfair risk/reward gameplan for chargers, who can apply enormous pressure and pose a lethal threat without having to risk anything. I don't think chargers are "cheap" weapons by any means (E-liter Burst Bomb spam with Damage Up stacking not included), and I have a lot of respect for just how insanely good S+ chargers are. But I think as their skill has increased and as it continues to increase, chargers apply too much pressure for too little consequence. Damage Up stacking on chargers is probably my number-one peeve about weapon balance in this game.

Inkbrushes desperately need a damage buff. They sacrifice everything for mobility and both brushes have absolutely horrendous kits. The weapon itself honestly isn't that bad, but when your kits do nothing to mitigate your weaknesses... it's not a good time. Since they gave both brushes such awful kits, I think they really need to have some more killing power. If a roller or Octobrush surprises you, you die. If an Inkbrush surprises you, you can often just swim away.


Subs:
Splash Walls need to be weakened somehow.They're INCREDIBLY powerful and I think they're stagnating the game a bit at high levels. I'm not sure I'd call them game-breaking, but the dominate the meta too much. Ink Mines need a buff, as they're absolutely useless. Seekers could use a buff, but only a tiny one.

Specials:
Ink Strikes need to have less lag. They're pretty weak outside of Turf War as-is, so you should be able to at least use them quick;y. Most other specials are fine imo. Making Special Duration Up affect Killer Wails would be nice, though.
 

MrL1193

Inkling Cadet
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Aug 9, 2015
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Going to avoid quoting the rest of your post as I'd just be repeating the following.
Both Gals have walls, both Gals are VERY strong weapons in the "meta", yes it is the combination, however, the weapon itself is the main problem. Quite a few weapons have walls, they are not nearly as amazing as they are on the gals, and there's a reason. The other weapons, aren't as strong, I'm talking the weapons themselves. They don't 2HKO, they require charge times, or something of the sort. If walls were as much of a problem as everyone makes it out to be, Vanilla JS would be more used, Vanilla Heavy would be more common, Vanilla Bamboozler would be big as well. However, they aren't, and that's because the weapons themselves don't punish the opposition quite like the gals do.
The .52 Deco and the original .96 are at least as rare as the original Heavy Splatling and the Bamboozler MK 1, if not more so. If the weapons themselves were the "main problem," as you claim, then by the same line of logic that you applied to Splash Walls, you'd expect to see these other two Gals more often. And yet, that's not the case.

There is absolutely no reason that they should nullify 2 main defense ups + 1 sub by merely carrying 1 damage up main.
Um... they don't. You don't have to exaggerate, y'know.

In order to nab their 2HKO's they should have to invest in damage ups, simple as that.
The .52 already does have to do that because it only barely surpasses the 50 damage per shot threshold without Damage Up. 1 main and 3 subs is the minimum amount that most players run, and plenty of them run more than that. The .96 has more room for that sort of nerf, but again, that would also affect the original .96, which is rarely seen as it is. (And let's be real here--they're not going to buff Sprinklers or Echolocator to compensate, because that would throw off the balance of even more weapons.)
 

Of Moose & Men

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The .52 Deco and the original .96 are at least as rare as the original Heavy Splatling and the Bamboozler MK 1, if not more so. If the weapons themselves were the "main problem," as you claim, then by the same line of logic that you applied to Splash Walls, you'd expect to see these other two Gals more often. And yet, that's not the case.


Um... they don't. You don't have to exaggerate, y'know.


The .52 already does have to do that because it only barely surpasses the 50 damage per shot threshold without Damage Up. 1 main and 3 subs is the minimum amount that most players run, and plenty of them run more than that. The .96 has more room for that sort of nerf, but again, that would also affect the original .96, which is rarely seen as it is. (And let's be real here--they're not going to buff Sprinklers or Echolocator to compensate, because that would throw off the balance of even more weapons.)
The deco and vanilla versions of those weapons aren't used because the other version is FAR superior. If they didn't have the walls and instead had Ink mines, I'm willing to bet the Gals would be ran regardless simply because of their extremely high damage output. The walls simply push it further. Yes, the walls could use a slight nerf, not sure what more they can do, but it could. However, the true culprit is the weapon itself, to deny that makes me wonder if there's bias here, but I digress. The reason that 1 main 3 subs is a "requirement" is because it is guaranteed to get the 2HKO, regardless of what the opponent has unless they go out of their way to get 3 mains + at least 1 sub. The fact that in order to counter 1 main + 3 subs you have to get 3 Mains plus another Sub should tell you something. You do realize how enormous of a sacrifice that is right?
I'm not saying remove it's 2HKO capability. But it should have to work more for that than "sacrificing" (I use that EXTREMELY lightly) 1 main and 3 subs for the two max Defense players out there.
 

MrL1193

Inkling Cadet
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The deco and vanilla versions of those weapons aren't used because the other version is FAR superior. If they didn't have the walls and instead had Ink mines, I'm willing to bet the Gals would be ran regardless simply because of their extremely high damage output.
Yes, they would be used by some... but they wouldn't be dominant. The already-popular Tentatek Splattershot would most likely eclipse the .52 Gal, and the Splattershot Pro and Dual Squelcher would see a rise in popularity as more reliable alternatives to the infamously RNG-dependent .96 Gal. Damage alone would not be enough for the Gals to dominate the metagame the way they do now. The Splattershot Pro actually used to be a popular weapon, back when it only had to contend with the original .96 Gal; it was only the advent of the .96 Gal Deco that pushed it out of the metagame.

However, the true culprit is the weapon itself, to deny that makes me wonder if there's bias here, but I digress.
That's rather underhanded of you to make that kind of accusation and then try to cover yourself with "but I digress," don't you think? I will neither confirm nor deny your insinuation about my weapon preferences because you should know better than to try to make things personal.

The reason that 1 main 3 subs is a "requirement" is because it is guaranteed to get the 2HKO, regardless of what the opponent has unless they go out of their way to get 3 mains + at least 1 sub. The fact that in order to counter 1 main + 3 subs you have to get 3 Mains plus another Sub should tell you something. You do realize how enormous of a sacrifice that is right?
Has it never occurred to you that you could, y'know... NOT stack Defense Up? If you don't even bother playing the .52's game of Damage/Defense Chicken, you immediately gain an advantage of 2 main ability slots or more over the .52. All that Damage Up won't help the .52 one bit if it can't actually land 2 hits on a speeding Tentatek. (Also, most of the players who can afford to stack large amounts of Defense Up use some form of the .96, so if anything, the Damage/Defense war is just causing problems for Gals on both sides.)



Bottom line, the Gal family's unique niche of being able to 2HKO is not OP in and of itself, and trying to nerf that aspect of them would unnecessarily hurt the non-Splash Wall Gals, which are fine the way they are.
 
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Of Moose & Men

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Oh so instead of conforming to the .52 gal by running a crap ton of defense up, instead conform by running offensive weapons with run speed, and hope for kills. Great solution.

I didn't make it personal I simply stated that that's what it seemed like, but DoD not intend to take this any further, hence "I digress".

Pretty sure nothing we say will change your mind, and that's fine. To deny that the damage output is obscene is silly to me.
 

MrL1193

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Oh so instead of conforming to the .52 gal by running a crap ton of defense up, instead conform by running offensive weapons with run speed, and hope for kills. Great solution.
You missed the point. The point is that if you don't bother with Defense Up, you effectively have more ability slots available to you than the .52 does, since its Damage Up will be wasted on you. How you can use that to your advantage depends on your weapon of choice; I just named Run Speed Tentateks as one example (of elephant-in-the-room prominence, given how common they are) of something that could ruin a .52's day using something other than Defense Up. It's far from the only other solution, and if we're talking about the wall-less .52 Deco instead, there are even more.

To deny that the damage output is obscene is silly to me.
High damage is the defining attribute of the entire Gal family. They're supposed to kill faster than other weapons in their range classes--if they don't miss (and that's a very significant "if"). And that's true of all the Gals, not just the ones with Splash Walls. Complaining about the defining characteristic of an entire weapon class when only half of them are even regarded as problematic is something that I would very much consider "silly."



Oh, and just in case you thought I was making stuff up when I spoke of a time when Gals weren't dominant, have a gander at some of this "vintage" footage of A+ Ranked Battles from Splatoon's early days--back when Splat Zones was the only Ranked mode, people hadn't yet realized just how good their pre-nerf Splash Walls were, and the .96 Deco simply didn't exist yet:

(No, you don't have to take flc's months-old commentary seriously; just pay attention to what people are using.)

Despite the wall-less Gals not being overshadowed by their counterparts, they still were not a dominant force back then. Instead, Tentateks, Krak-on Rollers, Dynamo Rollers, (original) Luna Blasters, and Chargers were the order of the day, with some Splattershot Pros and Squelchers thrown in for good measure. The .52 Deco did show up sometimes (though not as often as Tentateks and Rollers), but the .96? Uh-uh. (And bear in mind that the only Ranked mode available was Splat Zones, which is arguably the best mode for the original .96.)

Now, I'll readily concede that the community was ignorant of a lot of things back then. But even in such an environment, you'd think that something like "obscene" damage output would have been simple enough to be noticed and abused if it were really something OP. Well, it didn't exactly turn out that way... So remind me again: Why do you believe the .52 Deco and the .96 Gal are in need of a nerf?
 

Leronne

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How about make the fire rate of some weapons faster instead, like some of the weapons that need four shots to kill and such. Not by much, just a little.
 

KayB

Semi-Pro Squid
Joined
Jan 2, 2013
Messages
83
Oh so instead of conforming to the .52 gal by running a crap ton of defense up, instead conform by running offensive weapons with run speed, and hope for kills. Great solution.

I didn't make it personal I simply stated that that's what it seemed like, but DoD not intend to take this any further, hence "I digress".

Pretty sure nothing we say will change your mind, and that's fine. To deny that the damage output is obscene is silly to me.
High damage is the defining attribute of the entire Gal family. They're supposed to kill faster than other weapons in their range classes--if they don't miss (and that's a very significant "if"). And that's true of all the Gals, not just the ones with Splash Walls. Complaining about the defining characteristic of an entire weapon class when only half of them are even regarded as problematic is something that I would very much consider "silly."
Pretty much this. Nerfing more of the damage output hurts the original weapons unnecessarily and risks making the gal family a redundant weapon set. The inkwall is really the main issue with the gal series, and I definitely think the better solution would simply be to change the sub weapon into something else. I don't understand why everyone seems to think it's impossible.

Either way, I'm fine the way things are, but I'd much rather see .96 Gal Deco change sub weapons than to see a nerf to the Gal series if there ever will be another balance patch.
 

sammich

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I really strongly believe that Damage Up should not reduce charge time on chargers. Range is super powerful in this game, as is having the high ground. Chargers position themselves to have both of these (as they should), and being able to then mitigate what should be their glaring weakness in close quarters is absurd. This is especially noticeable with standard E-liters, who can spam extremely powerful Burst Bombs without having to sacrifice ANYTHING about their loadout. Running Damage Up has no opportunity cost for them, so why wouldn't they run all the Damage Up they can? It creates an unfair risk/reward gameplan for chargers, who can apply enormous pressure and pose a lethal threat without having to risk anything. I don't think chargers are "cheap" weapons by any means (E-liter Burst Bomb spam with Damage Up stacking not included), and I have a lot of respect for just how insanely good S+ chargers are. But I think as their skill has increased and as it continues to increase, chargers apply too much pressure for too little consequence. Damage Up stacking on chargers is probably my number-one peeve about weapon balance in this game.
this. it feels like such a suckerpunch for squiffers who were SUPPOSED to be the shorter-ranged but MUST FASTER AT CHARGING alternative. with range being very important in this game of very short-ranged weapons that hinder enemy movement by covering the ground, it's just a joke. especially with higher-level chargers (and some intermediate, depending on the loadout) knowing how to handle themselves in short-range situations effectively.

the squiffer was supposed to handle close range better than the others, but in reality it's actually really only suited for flanking, rollers, and support. if you miss with a shot against a decent shooter player, you're almost guaranteed to die (if you're lucky, you can flee). in contrast, regular chargers with their massive range get several chances. it's already a tight situation for the squiffer, which ends up receiving the benefit of the doubt from it's good ink efficiency and inking rate... but then there's still the squiffer's mediocre sub/main combination (neither the new squiffer or classic squiffer has a loadout that makes sense for the weapon, given the bubbler's nerfs and ink mines' lack of ... anything noteworthy).

it really frustrates me that by putting on some damage ups with very little consequence to their playstyle, normal chargers are able to charge a OHKO in just as short a time as me EVEN WHEN i time my approach so that it begins the moment after they've released a shot.

it makes the squiffer and its bizarre subs feel like a guilty pleasure rather than an effective weapon, and normal chargers don't even need damage ups to be powerful in the first place...
 

Skoodge

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I am going to address the issues people have with the Gal series of weapons. I do agree that the damage up to defense up ratio could be changed on the .52, as already explained, this ratio is too weighted in favor of the .52, but this is not really a big issue.

Besides, the .52 and .96 Deco both have a major counter, that most people don't realize, because it is such a underutilized sub weapon: disruptors. Because of the wall nerf, a .96 Deco has to commit to a wall, and as soon as they do, throw a disruptor over the wall. Also if they stand in the wall, then just throw the disruptor at the wall. This disruption ia sometimes manageable by the .52, but the .96 Deco has a choice of staying put, which reduces their special charging, super jumping back to base, which takes them out of the battle for 5-10 seconds, or getting splatted by myself or a teammate. The .52 can hold their ground better, since they use less Ink per shot, but they still contemplate the above options.

Disruptors are a counter, but because they are on so few kits, they are not well known to do so. Last night in a S+ tower control on Walleye, I was facing a .52, and two .96 Decos. We won because they hardly ever got to the tower, only their kraken pushing for them got them anywhere. I constantly disrupted them, they could hardly move. Then after I used my bubbler to splat 3 of them, we pushed and got the lead. We won, because I made sure they weren't getting on the tower hardly ever. Their walls can't stop the disruptors, and the 2 shot kill won't affect me if I stay out of their range. Don't nerf the weapons, just outplay the users.
 

TunaMayo

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Don't nerf the weapons, just outplay the users.
I like this.
The majority of the weapons are pretty balanced. The only times I have trouble against a certain weapon (i.e. rollers, gals) is if they caught me off guard.
Due to my mains custom jet squelcher and forge splattershot pro, I can outrange them most of the time.

Though if I had a choice to nerf anything..
-Yes, reduce the firerate of the .52 slightly. Make them work a bit harder for that 2HKO. If you still have trouble facing them, you probably just need to improve your game play.
-For the .96 maybe replace the splashwall with disrupters.
-For splashwalls, reduce it by 1 second. They last much too long. Though, I've gotten many kills where they're vulnerable throwing out the splashwall and before its activation.
 

Leronne

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this. it feels like such a suckerpunch for squiffers who were SUPPOSED to be the shorter-ranged but MUST FASTER AT CHARGING alternative. with range being very important in this game of very short-ranged weapons that hinder enemy movement by covering the ground, it's just a joke. especially with higher-level chargers (and some intermediate, depending on the loadout) knowing how to handle themselves in short-range situations effectively.

the squiffer was supposed to handle close range better than the others, but in reality it's actually really only suited for flanking, rollers, and support. if you miss with a shot against a decent shooter player, you're almost guaranteed to die (if you're lucky, you can flee). in contrast, regular chargers with their massive range get several chances. it's already a tight situation for the squiffer, which ends up receiving the benefit of the doubt from it's good ink efficiency and inking rate... but then there's still the squiffer's mediocre sub/main combination (neither the new squiffer or classic squiffer has a loadout that makes sense for the weapon, given the bubbler's nerfs and ink mines' lack of ... anything noteworthy).

it really frustrates me that by putting on some damage ups with very little consequence to their playstyle, normal chargers are able to charge a OHKO in just as short a time as me EVEN WHEN i time my approach so that it begins the moment after they've released a shot.

it makes the squiffer and its bizarre subs feel like a guilty pleasure rather than an effective weapon, and normal chargers don't even need damage ups to be powerful in the first place...
Exactly. The squiffer is the only charger i really like that i can use efficiently, but the fact that the splatterscope can become a squiffer with more range with enough damage up annoys me so much and makes the squiffer seem redundant. i've mentioned that they should nerf it so the splat charger and e-litre are only lethal above 85-90% charge no matter how many damage up is stacked, but i feel like removing it all together would also be good.
 

TunaMayo

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Exactly. The squiffer is the only charger i really like that i can use efficiently, but the fact that the splatterscope can become a squiffer with more range with enough damage up annoys me so much and makes the squiffer seem redundant. i've mentioned that they should nerf it so the splat charger and e-litre are only lethal above 85-90% charge no matter how many damage up is stacked, but i feel like removing it all together would also be good.

Wouldn't Damage Up still do the same for Squiffers? It would take about the charge time of a Bamboozler to splat.
If anything Bamboozlers would be redundant and also weak for having a 1.5HKO.
 

AlsoDededork649

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Avoiding all other posts here...

I think an indirect buff to some weapons would be new loadouts, a third custom.

Ex. Inkbrush Neo w/ Burst Bombs and Bomb Rush
New Hydra Splatling w/ Burst Bombs and Kraken
Custom Sloshing Machine w/ Disruptor and Bubbler

So many weapons I want to pick up I don't because their kit isn't the best.

In terms of other buffs and nerfs
-Buff Mine to make you be able to place another, and the other one auto explodes.
-Reduce Seeker ink usage to 60% of tank.
-Lower run speed with Luna Blaster

IDK, just some things off of the top of my head.
 

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