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Making a hypothetical balance patch and screwing with some kits

Terret

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So I started working on making my own balance patch to see how to bring the game to a more favorable state after the thing known as 7.0 came out and fixed nothing. Here’s the WiP for now if you want to try it: https://gamebanana.com/wips/83079
 

OnePotWonder

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I like a lot of these changes, and it's interesting to find someone who had the same idea for a Tenta Missiles nerf as me.
Two things I'd like to suggest are making Splattercolor Screen fully transparent for your team so it doesn't screw over allied backlines, and a Goo Tuber buff decreasing the amount of charge required for 100 damage to 50%, along with a slight maximum range buff.
 

Terret

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I like a lot of these changes, and it's interesting to find someone who had the same idea for a Tenta Missiles nerf as me.
Two things I'd like to suggest are making Splattercolor Screen fully transparent for your team so it doesn't screw over allied backlines, and a Goo Tuber buff decreasing the amount of charge required for 100 damage to 50%, along with a slight maximum range buff.
Thank you for the feedback! I am actually planning to implement a change on the non fully charged shots on goo so it charges to 100 damage faster. As for the screen change, I’m still fairly new to modding so I admittedly haven’t figured out how to do that yet
 

OnePotWonder

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Well, while I'm here, I couldn't find anywhere else to put this.

One change I would really like to see is Booyah Bomb's explosion dissipating if the user gets splatted. I had a game a while back where a teammate and I managed to barely shred an Aerospray's armor before they threw the bomb at their feet, dying but splatting both me and my teammate in the process, and I couldn't help but think, "That was extremely cheap. The bomb should have died with them."
 

Terret

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Well, while I'm here, I couldn't find anywhere else to put this.

One change I would really like to see is Booyah Bomb's explosion dissipating if the user gets splatted. I had a game a while back where a teammate and I managed to barely shred an Aerospray's armor before they threw the bomb at their feet, dying but splatting both me and my teammate in the process, and I couldn't help but think, "That was extremely cheap. The bomb should have died with them."
So the bomb was thrown but didn’t land before they died or they died but they somehow threw the bomb after they died? If it’s the prior, I’ll see what I can do but if it’s the latter, I think that might be an issue with netcode causing certain interactions to not act the way they’re supposed to
 

Terret

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i like these changes
Thank you! Any change you’d personally want to make? I know I’m taking a break from the project for now but ideas are always welcome
 

McSquid82

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I find these changes interesting, but I disagree with almost all of them. The 52 gal does not need to be nerfed, and the Jet Squelcher's paint is fine as is. I do agree with decreasing the Booyah Bomb's armor but not its radius. This is why I'm glad that it's the developers making balance decisions and not random people on the internet.
 

Terret

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I find these changes interesting, but I disagree with almost all of them. The 52 gal does not need to be nerfed, and the Jet Squelcher's paint is fine as is. I do agree with decreasing the Booyah Bomb's armor but not its radius. This is why I'm glad that it's the developers making balance decisions and not random people on the internet.
I can see what you mean. There have been some changes that seem unnecessary on paper but done to try to make weapons more healthy. 52 kills faster than sploosh which imo is insanely dumb which is why I nerfed 52 in my patch ideas. And Jet is technically fine as a main weapon but at the same time, it has one of the most boring playstyles for the player and one of the most infuriating for the opponent. This is why I wanted to improve Jet’s fall off damage in compensation for worse paint. Booyah I decreased radius by a small amount to generally decrease the oppression of noticeably strong specials by a small margin. Hence why I also lightly nerfed Pack, attempted to kill Zooka, and plan to tone back crab as well (and cooler when I figure out how to tone back the special saver). I won’t deny, some of the changes are insane, but with a state of nothing burgers of patches by Nintendo, having some ideas like this could help with some theory crafting on what people want the game to feel like.
 

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So the bomb was thrown but didn’t land before they died or they died but they somehow threw the bomb after they died? If it’s the prior, I’ll see what I can do but if it’s the latter, I think that might be an issue with netcode causing certain interactions to not act the way they’re supposed to
I think we're both confused.
They were killed immediately after throwing the bomb, which then splatted two people. Best example of a zero skill play I have seen to date. What I meant was that I'd like to see a change where the bomb's explosion fizzles out if the user is splatted; it stops expanding.

I really, severely dislike how effective of a panic button Booyah Bomb is, what with its virtually instant armor and ridiculously fast charge time if the user's team helps charge it. This would make cancelling it much, well, would it be easier? I think fairer is a better term.
I would also not be opposed to the armor not activating until the user is fully in the air.
 

Terret

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I think we're both confused.
They were killed immediately after throwing the bomb, which then splatted two people. Best example of a zero skill play I have seen to date. What I meant was that I'd like to see a change where the bomb's explosion fizzles out if the user is splatted; it stops expanding.

I really, severely dislike how effective of a panic button Booyah Bomb is, what with its virtually instant armor and ridiculously fast charge time if the user's team helps charge it. This would make cancelling it much, well, would it be easier? I think fairer is a better term.
I would also not be opposed to the armor not activating until the user is fully in the air.
Killed immediately after. Alright, now I get what you mean. While I don’t think I can fix that directly, I did actually nerf the armor hp and radius of Booyah bomb and a small nerf to the radius with what I recently changed. I’m not sure if that would be enough to fix the problem, but I could see if I can increase the startup or charge from a booyah a small amount to make it harder to panic
 

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Killed immediately after. Alright, now I get what you mean. While I don’t think I can fix that directly, I did actually nerf the armor hp and radius of Booyah bomb and a small nerf to the radius with what I recently changed. I’m not sure if that would be enough to fix the problem, but I could see if I can increase the startup or charge from a booyah a small amount to make it harder to panic
Yours are realistic changes. I can be too creative for my own good sometimes.
 

McSquid82

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In my opinion, I don't think 7.0 was a nothing patch. Mini, Big Swig and Gloogas all needed those buffs. They're saving the big balance changes for the mid-season patch anyway. Another reason why I don't like the idea of nerfing the Jet Squelcher is because a lot of weapons paint better now, whether through actual buffs like the Splattershot Pro or ones like the .96 gal having better ink consumption and thus better paint output. On top of that, the Mini Splatling paints better at its feet and has received both ink consumption and paint buffs. The Jet is right where it needs to be turfing wise, which is average. On top of that it got its range nerfed like a bunch of other weapons in the last game, so it needs something.
 
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Terret

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In my opinion, I don't think 7.0 was a nothing patch. Mini, Big Swig and Gloogas all needed those buffs. They're saving the big balance changes for the mid-season patch anyway. Another reason why I don't like the idea of nerfing the Jet Squelcher is because a lot of weapons paint better now, whether through actual buffs like the Splattershot Pro or ones like the .96 gal having better ink consumption and thus better paint output. On top of that, the Mini Splatling paints better at its feet and has received both ink consumption and paint buffs. The Jet is right where it needs to be turfing wise, which is average. On top of that it got its range nerfed like a bunch of other weapons in the last game, so it needs something.
I would agree with you on saving big balance changes for the midseason patch, but I would argue that this isn’t much of an excuse when you look at the 4.0 patch. This patch imo proves they can make big season balance patches. 5.0 and 6.0 I can pass because it wasn’t obvious what the game state was aside from cooler but 7.0 was an obvious spot for Pencil to have SOME kind of nerf, but they nerfed Reef-flux instead despite Pencil being picked almost everywhere, even in their OWN TOURNAMENTS. And Enperry 200p is still really funny. I guess adding on that while the Glooga buff was a REALLY good one, the rest don’t matter because Swig doesn’t function in the current meta (the ink efficiency buff does not change anything about that) and mini is already very strong of a main weapon shackled by subpar kits. Though not liking the jet nerf otherwise is fair. That said, I don’t think you realize how well Jet paints for its range and mobility. It still would paint better than BP’s long range mode by a good margin. Though maybe a nerf to points per special would be a better idea because 180p on both rain and vac is ridiculous.
 

youre_a_squib_now

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I find these changes interesting, but I disagree with almost all of them. The 52 gal does not need to be nerfed, and the Jet Squelcher's paint is fine as is. I do agree with decreasing the Booyah Bomb's armor but not its radius. This is why I'm glad that it's the developers making balance decisions and not random people on the internet.
Nintendo recently has been really good at releasing changes that are very uncontroversial. Unfortunately that usually means very small changes, and not the most needed ones either.
It's arguably better than splatoon 2's over-buffing and -nerfing things, but at this point I'd rather them overnerf pencil or shot than to have yet another one and a half months of pencil.
I am glad, though, that although most of the buffs are small, they are at least generally in the correct direction.
 

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One thing I've noticed in particular about a lot of the buffs is that they're actually reversions of nerfs from previous games. Quite a few ink consumption buffs are actually just giving weapons back their original stats like the Aerospray and Mini Splatling for instance. I also notice another trend with these buffs and that's giving the weapons the stat boosts from MPU that didn't increase damage. Even then, one nice buff in particular is the Hydra's mobility while firing and increase in duration. For a weapon with such a slow charge speed it needed a long firing time to compensate.
 

NeoXVIII

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Holy those are a lot of changes. Deciding not to go through every single one of them and just limit this to those I find interesting.

Main Weapons
S-Blast
- Agree with bigger poke radius, though, why the damage buff? The radius buff alone would make it more consistent + easier to poke with no?

Splat Chargers - I think the charge time and range is fine atm. At most I'd decrease the range by 0.5-1.0 if I absolutely had to, but these weapons' strengths and weaknesses are the most affected by map design.

Eliters - Maybe on the charge buff, I'd do a smaller 2/60 buff if I had to, but even then I'd be wary of letting Liters charge follow up shots too quickly. probably no to the range change as above.

Dualie Squelchers - Agree on reduced ink consumption on rolls, but maybe closer to 7-6.5% since they're one of the most mobile rolls. Disagree on damage and jump spread.

Splatana Wiper - It currently doesn't scale on Run Speed Up, I'd rather it do that. The melee change would make it a two shot which sounds fine enough.

52 Gal/96 Gal - Sorta agree on startup nerf, disagree on 52 Gal efficiency nerf, 96 Gal damage buff is unneeded but nice so shrug.

Splattershot Pro - I'm fine with a slight firerate buff.

Clash Blaster - I mean sure, it'd let it combo off bomb indirects.

Painbrush - Startup should be reduced yeah, maybe not by that much though. Closer to around 20/60.

Snipewriter - Disagree on the damage buff. A bomb combo's cool, just not on Snipewriter. Agree with the range nerf, but closer to (vanilla) normal charger range rather than its current scoped charger. Slight paint nerf closer to 2-4% would be fine, I think the tacticooler kit in particular just needs a higher special point requirement though due to it also having sprinkler.

Ballpoint - I guess it does need something. I never see this weapon now, ever, along with machine.

Undercover - Maybe. It's mostly weak because of the kits.


Sub Weapons
Angle Shooter
- I like the idea of the tripwire doing damage to chip/prevent healing, just not by this much woah. Direct 30-35, tripwire 5-10. I'd be fine with the total damage doing 45.

Curling Bomb - I have no clue why this bomb should do less than Fizzy while costing more. Cost should go from 65% to 55-60% if it gets other changes, otherwise I can see 45-55%.

Fizzy Bomb - If double Fizzy's that much of a problem I could see this, otherwise it's in a fine spot.


Special Weapons
Booyah Bomb
- Agree on HP nerf, disagree with radius nerf, unsure about special charge up buff.

Reefslider - fine enough endlag buff, now make it work with drop roller.

Triple Splashdown - I dunno, landing splash buff I'd be okay with. I'd rather the player lose less special overall so there are more opportunities to come back in with it. Something like 40% regularly, 25% in jump (as it is now). Also make it work with drop roller lmao.

Trizooka - Maybe interval nerf, the rest probably not.

Tenta Missiles - Shrug. Decreasing the amount of missiles on a full team would be fine, maybe even down to 2. Big maybe on the max missile count, leaning towards probably not. I'd probably reduce the lockout time from what it is atm tbh, it feels super bad to lose part of your kit for so long without it providing any value during that time. Maybe reduce the lockout by 8-10% for each missile landed? Or at the very least remove it once every missile has landed.

Wave Breaker - HP increase would be nice, wave damage would probably be better off at around 52 just for the dread combo, and to make range poke combo more consistent, 55 feels like a bit much (could combo with accidental falloff much easier). More waves would also be nice, if both the speed at which they came out was slightly faster and if the interval between waves was a bit shorter.

Triple Inkstrike/Inkjet - These are in a fine spot tbh.

Splattercolor Screen - A better buff would be to make it more see-through for the allied team, at the very least from the thrown side. and/or have it ink more frequently so it's tougher to get through.
 

Terret

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Holy those are a lot of changes. Deciding not to go through every single one of them and just limit this to those I find interesting.

Main Weapons
S-Blast
- Agree with bigger poke radius, though, why the damage buff? The radius buff alone would make it more consistent + easier to poke with no?

Splat Chargers - I think the charge time and range is fine atm. At most I'd decrease the range by 0.5-1.0 if I absolutely had to, but these weapons' strengths and weaknesses are the most affected by map design.

Eliters - Maybe on the charge buff, I'd do a smaller 2/60 buff if I had to, but even then I'd be wary of letting Liters charge follow up shots too quickly. probably no to the range change as above.

Dualie Squelchers - Agree on reduced ink consumption on rolls, but maybe closer to 7-6.5% since they're one of the most mobile rolls. Disagree on damage and jump spread.

Splatana Wiper - It currently doesn't scale on Run Speed Up, I'd rather it do that. The melee change would make it a two shot which sounds fine enough.

52 Gal/96 Gal - Sorta agree on startup nerf, disagree on 52 Gal efficiency nerf, 96 Gal damage buff is unneeded but nice so shrug.

Splattershot Pro - I'm fine with a slight firerate buff.

Clash Blaster - I mean sure, it'd let it combo off bomb indirects.

Painbrush - Startup should be reduced yeah, maybe not by that much though. Closer to around 20/60.

Snipewriter - Disagree on the damage buff. A bomb combo's cool, just not on Snipewriter. Agree with the range nerf, but closer to (vanilla) normal charger range rather than its current scoped charger. Slight paint nerf closer to 2-4% would be fine, I think the tacticooler kit in particular just needs a higher special point requirement though due to it also having sprinkler.

Ballpoint - I guess it does need something. I never see this weapon now, ever, along with machine.

Undercover - Maybe. It's mostly weak because of the kits.


Sub Weapons
Angle Shooter
- I like the idea of the tripwire doing damage to chip/prevent healing, just not by this much woah. Direct 30-35, tripwire 5-10. I'd be fine with the total damage doing 45.

Curling Bomb - I have no clue why this bomb should do less than Fizzy while costing more. Cost should go from 65% to 55-60% if it gets other changes, otherwise I can see 45-55%.

Fizzy Bomb - If double Fizzy's that much of a problem I could see this, otherwise it's in a fine spot.


Special Weapons
Booyah Bomb
- Agree on HP nerf, disagree with radius nerf, unsure about special charge up buff.

Reefslider - fine enough endlag buff, now make it work with drop roller.

Triple Splashdown - I dunno, landing splash buff I'd be okay with. I'd rather the player lose less special overall so there are more opportunities to come back in with it. Something like 40% regularly, 25% in jump (as it is now). Also make it work with drop roller lmao.

Trizooka - Maybe interval nerf, the rest probably not.

Tenta Missiles - Shrug. Decreasing the amount of missiles on a full team would be fine, maybe even down to 2. Big maybe on the max missile count, leaning towards probably not. I'd probably reduce the lockout time from what it is atm tbh, it feels super bad to lose part of your kit for so long without it providing any value during that time. Maybe reduce the lockout by 8-10% for each missile landed? Or at the very least remove it once every missile has landed.

Wave Breaker - HP increase would be nice, wave damage would probably be better off at around 52 just for the dread combo, and to make range poke combo more consistent, 55 feels like a bit much (could combo with accidental falloff much easier). More waves would also be nice, if both the speed at which they came out was slightly faster and if the interval between waves was a bit shorter.

Triple Inkstrike/Inkjet - These are in a fine spot tbh.

Splattercolor Screen - A better buff would be to make it more see-through for the allied team, at the very least from the thrown side. and/or have it ink more frequently so it's tougher to get through.
Damage buff for S’Blast came to mind to make it easier to combo with burst. Looking back, it is a bit much so I’ll tone that back.
Chargers I wanted to try to make less oppressive in terms of range but easier and more fun to handle, hence why I had the thought to slightly decrease the charge time.
Liter was a similar thought process but you have a much better point on that.
Dualie Squelchers I can see the distaste for the damage but why the jump rng? The fact it jumps as much as it does is actually why I did it. Though I can sort of see how that would be too much with everything else.
Wiper I never figured out how to scale it with run speed, hence why I just gave it the inkbrush treatment.
52 kills faster than sploosh for some reason which is why I nerfed 52’s startup (and 96 for consistency). As for the ink efficiency nerf, that is admittedly a partial bias against it with how dumb I feel the main weapon is. Though I’m the process of making some patch ideas, I might have made other weapons dumber so…
Painbrush I didn’t know how much would make it crazy. I tried 17 startup frames in the training room and it felt fair in my head. I can see how that seems a little insane though.
Pencil with the range nerf, I made it about a fifth of a unit longer ranged than the altered charger (for comparison, the altered scope is about two units longer than charger). I nerfed the paint heavily but it just about reaches cooler in three charges. Actually working on changing special points (and to some extent kits) and I have Pencil now at 210.
With line marker, I messed with it a bit to see how the tripwire worked. You can only get hit once per tripwire. So I actually think 25 would probably be okay if it’s 45% of the ink tank. As for the direct total, while I understand 75 is kind of ridiculous for a success, 45 total is nowhere near enough of a reward for hitting it. That said, I do see a major problem in double darts just killing someone outright, which is likely why you proposed it do 45 total. Actually, I don’t really know how to approach it.
Curling I wanted it to be used more for what its role is, as a movement tool. Since most weapons with it are fairly heavy, I wanted to make it weaker overall but much less ink hungry to compensate
Fizzy in its current state imo is kind of ridiculous at everything it does which is why I nerfed it to 65% of the tank. I’m also considering other changes I want to do like giving machine some of its frames back and in part, also makes this nerf a precaution.
Booyah is one of the specials I touched with the attempt to try to slightly lower the power level of certain specials in terms of entry. This is the same reason I lightly toned back jet as well, with plans to lightly nerf crab (and nerf cooler when I figure out how to remove the special saver)
I always wanted to let reefslider work with drop roller but I still haven’t figured that out either.
TSD even if I knew how to implement the special depletion change, I personally think it should not have decreased special depletion while in the air. As for why, it incentivizes it to be used more as a panic button rather than a combo tool or a special counter, which in general are not good things to have in the game imo.
Zooka I wanted to try to make it less selfish of a special hence why I buffed it’s splash to 65 and make more reasonable to react to which is why I nerfed it’s direct damage to 180.
Missiles is fair. Any kind of positive change doesn’t seem like a good sign but I’d say even with this they are arguably healthier than killer wail 5.1. My thought process was to incentivize targeting less people though that might lead to too many issues for backlines. As for the output part, I’m not sure how something like that could be done to improve it in the code, though I like the idea.
Wave is actually really weak right now. 55 damage does sound like a lot but at the same time, there’s Zooka that has a 220 from across the map, Crab locking down space in a massive area, strikes melting everything in their path, and wave just has unreliable combos and location, which for its radius covered, is insanely underwhelming in comparison.
Strikes are fine but they are also not very good for the game in their current state. They do deny cheese which is a good thing but at the same time, they have a genuinely absurd touch of death for how much area they cover, so while they may be fine balance-wise, their strengths are so absurd to the point of being genuinely problematic.
Screen I haven’t figured out how to edit the model to allow teammates to see through it easier, though the paint buff I can probably figure out.

thank you for your feedback!
 

youre_a_squib_now

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Overall my impression after reading through the list is that most of these changes either buff a major weakness of a weapon or nerf a major strength, which takes away from the weapon's core identity. This is what I mentioned in the kits thread but now that I think about it, it really doesn't apply to kits nearly as much as balance changes. Also there are a lot of tiny damage buffs for some reason.

the most prominent examples:
S-blast long range mode damage & radius increase
Liter + splat charger + pencil range nerfs
Liter + splat charger charge time buffs
Clash direct + indirect combo
Painbrush startup buff
Bloblobber

Like, s-blast is supposed to have weak long range AOE. It's the biggest weakness of the weapon. Removing these kinds of weaknesses is how to make every weapon start to feel the same, because it removes the uniqueness. So sure it might make s-blast better, but that doesn't mean it's a good change. Same for the rest of the changes in this list.


Big changes, but address a big issue that needed fixed:

the biggest / most drastic changes:
(the ones that needed changed tier)
Reefslider endlag
Dynamo vertical flick
Pencil paint nerf
Curling ink usage


Big changes that I don't think were necessary and I hope it's obvious why these are broken:

Angle shooter 75 damage
Clash damage combo
Zooka splash damage


Also, can you explain the slight damage buffs to, like, everything? I don't really see the purpose behind these.
 

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