Making a hypothetical balance patch and screwing with some kits

[Terret]

Overall my impression after reading through the list is that most of these changes either buff a major weakness of a weapon or nerf a major strength, which takes away from the weapon's core identity. This is what I mentioned in the kits thread but now that I think about it, it really doesn't apply to kits nearly as much as balance changes. Also there are a lot of tiny damage buffs for some reason.

the most prominent examples:
S-blast long range mode damage & radius increase
Liter + splat charger + pencil range nerfs
Liter + splat charger charge time buffs
Clash direct + indirect combo
Painbrush startup buff
Bloblobber

Like, s-blast is supposed to have weak long range AOE. It's the biggest weakness of the weapon. Removing these kinds of weaknesses is how to make every weapon start to feel the same, because it removes the uniqueness. So sure it might make s-blast better, but that doesn't mean it's a good change. Same for the rest of the changes in this list.


Big changes, but address a big issue that needed fixed:

the biggest / most drastic changes:
(the ones that needed changed tier)
Reefslider endlag
Dynamo vertical flick
Pencil paint nerf
Curling ink usage


Big changes that I don't think were necessary and I hope it's obvious why these are broken:

Angle shooter 75 damage
Clash damage combo
Zooka splash damage


Also, can you explain the slight damage buffs to, like, everything? I don't really see the purpose behind these.

S’Blast is supposed to have a tiny radius, I won’t argue with that. That said, 1.8 units is insanely small, to the point where that and frame data similar to range makes it surprisingly weak as a main weapon, even with a god burst Booyah kit. Even with the radius buff, it is still significantly smaller than any of the other radii which is why I think that buff is fine. The damage buff thinking about it now though was pushing it.
The range nerfs on the long range chargers while do damage identity to a seemingly major extent, I feel had to be done. It is in part due to map design, but chargers in their current state are generally not very good for the game with how oppressive their range is, which is why I thought to make them able to control less space. The charge speed buffs are compensation for that.
Clash with direct indirect combo sounds broken on paper, but it’s not going to be as bad as it sounds. Its paint is still awful, still needs two shots minimum to kill, even if it’s easier and the maximum shot count is still four. My only real concern with it is how infuriating it might be on the casual end.
Painbrush still has the weakness of startup to an extent. Also, it’s admittedly hard to justify keeping identity of a weapon if it’s just going to feel horrible to use. That said, 23 to 17 frames might be a lot to some so I get it.
Blob is weird. My thought process was to make it more punishing to be hit by a bubble but make there be less bubbles. That way it’s less annoying but more rewarding. As for the identity crisis, until there are no more bubbles, blob is going to continue to be a very weird and unique weapon.
Dart doing 75 is kind of insane, yeah, even with the ink consumption nerf. I’ll probably either make it 55% of the tank or nerf the direct from 50 to 35, making the total 60. Likely the latter.
Zooka splash I had the thought to try to make it easier to combo other things with it. So if Zooka was still good, you wouldn’t just run Zooka to combo with Zooka. Though 65 might be pushing it, especially since wave combos with 53 now anyway. I am working on fixing startup
As for the slight damage buffs to a LOT of these, it was either to try to make damage more reliable because it’s incredibly cheap to lose an engagement from falloff, or make cool combos with other things. Like tetras out of reefslider. That said, for the falloff issue, I might have taken the wrong approach. And I couldn’t help but have 96 do 69

 

[youre_a_squib_now]

S’Blast

No.

The range nerfs on the long range chargers while do damage identity to a seemingly major extent, I feel had to be done. It is in part due to map design, but chargers in their current state are generally not very good for the game with how oppressive their range is, which is why I thought to make them able to control less space. The charge speed buffs are compensation for that.

I agree that this is a problem, but I think there are other ways to fix it. The first one that comes to mind is ink efficiency. This would make liter have more downtime and so it isn't putting pressure on the map as often, is easier to approach with shorter range weapons, and so on. Splat charger I think is fine as is. As far as I know, neither kit has been seeing a lot of use, so nerfing liter but not charger should help it see more use.

Also, why the 14% range decrease on pencil? I get decreasing it slightly (mainly bc of matchups with other chargers) but 14% is huge. Pencil isn't dominating because it's good at controlling an area, it's dominating because it can do that and it gets cooler insanely fast. We only need to remove one of those.

Clash with direct indirect combo sounds broken on paper, but it’s not going to be as bad as it sounds. Its paint is still awful, still needs two shots minimum to kill, even if it’s easier and the maximum shot count is still four.

In other words, it wouldn't change a whole lot for competitive play...

My only real concern with it is how infuriating it might be on the casual end.

...but clash would improve a ton at lower ranks. This is the opposite of what we want. I don't know what the solution is, but I don't think it's this.

Painbrush still has the weakness of startup to an extent. Also, it’s admittedly hard to justify keeping identity of a weapon if it’s just going to feel horrible to use. That said, 23 to 17 frames might be a lot to some so I get it.

Painbrush and octobrush have the same swing speed after the startup, but painbrush can two shot. The time between when you pop out of ink to when you have dealt 100 damage needs to be considerably longer for painbrush than octobrush, or else painbrush will completely outclass it. I'm not opposed to this buff, but I think this is too much.

Blob is weird. My thought process was to make it more punishing to be hit by a bubble but make there be less bubbles. That way it’s less annoying but more rewarding. As for the identity crisis, until there are no more bubbles, blob is going to continue to be a very weird and unique weapon.

Blob is... interesting. The playstyle it is best suited for is generally considered unhealthy for the game, so it basically has to be reworked. Unlike liter, it's not an issue of the strategy being too oppressive or strong, it's just not a strategy that we particularly want to exist. It can't be easily fixed by giving it a different kit, either. This is probably a topic worth its own thread tbh, but having only 3 blobs just feels wrong to me.

Dart doing 75 is kind of insane, yeah, even with the ink consumption nerf. I’ll probably either make it 55% of the tank or nerf the direct from 50 to 35, making the total 60. Likely the latter.

It shouldn't be possible to kill someone with only darts on a single ink tank. Yes, it's possible with burst bombs, but you can't hit those from e-liter range. This gives us two options: it costs more than 50% of the ink tank, or it does less than 50 damage. I don't really like the first option, because if you miss (which is not hard to do) then you just wasted more than half your ink tank. But with the second option, the damage can't really be buffed much because it already does 40, so it needs some other sort of buff.
My personal take is that the ink consumption should be reduced to 35% and the damage stays at 40. It's a dart, it should be cheap. The tripwire could also do a small amount of damage but it would have to not stack with the direct. So the max would still be 40.

Zooka splash I had the thought to try to make it easier to combo other things with it. So if Zooka was still good, you wouldn’t just run Zooka to combo with Zooka. Though 65 might be pushing it, especially since wave combos with 53 now anyway. I am working on fixing startup

imo zooka should be a skillshot weapon where it's like, "okay, you have 3 tries to splat somebody." Not "here are three giant, easily combo-able explosions for you to shoot somewhere." And also not what it currently is, which is "here are 3 shots to obliterate literally whatever is in front of you." Like seriously, this thing is way too good against other specials. And don't even try hiding behind a splash wall. I say we make it do 60% of its current damage to anything that's not a player, and that plus nerfing the startup is probably enough. It certainly doesn't need buffs though

As for the slight damage buffs to a LOT of these, it was either to try to make damage more reliable because it’s incredibly cheap to lose an engagement from falloff, or make cool combos with other things. Like tetras out of reefslider. That said, for the falloff issue, I might have taken the wrong approach.

If 2 extra damage means it gets a combo like that, then it's not really a slight buff. These buffs aren't bad things, but it's important to only add a combo like this if the weapon needs it and not just because you can. I don't want to assume you didn't put any thought at all into these, but based on the sheer amount of them it kinda seems like it.
As for falloff, it's possible to adjust the minimum damage or adjust the rate at which it decreases, like you did for jet squelcher. Increasing the base damage can work, but it will also have other effects, and if you slightly increase the base damage of a whole lot of things then people are going to start getting splatted faster and faster.
However, I don't think falloff actually needs changed; I think it should be weak (except for sloshers and stuff, obviously). If you lose a 1v1 because of your falloff damage, you should have been close to your opponent. I think line of sight weapons should have weak falloff because, well... they're line of sight weapons. I think it would get really annoying if shooters started being able to shoot down off of a ledge at you and still have good damage.

And I couldn’t help but have 96 do 69

Can't argue with this one

 

[Terret]

I agree that this is a problem, but I think there are other ways to fix it. The first one that comes to mind is ink efficiency. This would make liter have more downtime and so it isn't putting pressure on the map as often, is easier to approach with shorter range weapons, and so on. Splat charger I think is fine as is. As far as I know, neither kit has been seeing a lot of use, so nerfing liter but not charger should help it see more use.

Ink efficiency nerfs isn't really a solution because of how ink hungry chargers already are. Charger uses 18% and Liter uses 25%. Any more and they have one less shot, which is a genuinely insane nerf, which is why I didn't go with ink efficiency.

Also, why the 14% range decrease on pencil? I get decreasing it slightly (mainly bc of matchups with other chargers) but 14% is huge. Pencil isn't dominating because it's good at controlling an area, it's dominating because it can do that and it gets cooler insanely fast. We only need to remove one of those.

With the other range nerfs, pencil will still outrange charger, but be much shorter than scope. The decrease in paint trail might be a bit much though, I'll maybe give some of the width back and set the damage back to 68.

In other words, it wouldn't change a whole lot for competitive play...

...but clash would improve a ton at lower ranks. This is the opposite of what we want. I don't know what the solution is, but I don't think it's this.

Honestly, it might be worth me completely axing the clash change because similar to some other weapons, there really is no good way to balance it without being some semblance of a problem.

Painbrush and octobrush have the same swing speed after the startup, but painbrush can two shot. The time between when you pop out of ink to when you have dealt 100 damage needs to be considerably longer for painbrush than octobrush, or else painbrush will completely outclass it. I'm not opposed to this buff, but I think this is too much.

I just checked. Octobrush takes 10 frames per swing while Pain takes 15 frames per swing. I think it would be okay because Pain's longer range would be a trade off to Octobrush's startup.

Blob is... interesting. The playstyle it is best suited for is generally considered unhealthy for the game, so it basically has to be reworked. Unlike liter, it's not an issue of the strategy being too oppressive or strong, it's just not a strategy that we particularly want to exist. It can't be easily fixed by giving it a different kit, either. This is probably a topic worth its own thread tbh, but having only 3 blobs just feels wrong to me.

Blob is really weird so it's hard to find a good way to make it balanced without it being incredibly annoying. I guess because we're so used to four bubbles, three feels weird so I get that.

It shouldn't be possible to kill someone with only darts on a single ink tank. Yes, it's possible with burst bombs, but you can't hit those from e-liter range. This gives us two options: it costs more than 50% of the ink tank, or it does less than 50 damage. I don't really like the first option, because if you miss (which is not hard to do) then you just wasted more than half your ink tank. But with the second option, the damage can't really be buffed much because it already does 40, so it needs some other sort of buff.
My personal take is that the ink consumption should be reduced to 35% and the damage stays at 40. It's a dart, it should be cheap. The tripwire could also do a small amount of damage but it would have to not stack with the direct. So the max would still be 40.

You actually have a pretty cool approach on dart. I personally won't bring it to 35% but keeping it at 40 damage, improve location time, and let the tripwire do some damage should be fine.

imo zooka should be a skillshot weapon where it's like, "okay, you have 3 tries to splat somebody." Not "here are three giant, easily combo-able explosions for you to shoot somewhere." And also not what it currently is, which is "here are 3 shots to obliterate literally whatever is in front of you." Like seriously, this thing is way too good against other specials. And don't even try hiding behind a splash wall. I say we make it do 60% of its current damage to anything that's not a player, and that plus nerfing the startup is probably enough. It certainly doesn't need buffs though

I did find a way to add startup. Only issue is that it impacts every shot and doesn't feel very good to use. Though maybe that's fine. Then from there, I do think having the direct do 180 is necessary because killing from across the map without SOME way to react is insanely dumb (You can live a 180 by squidroll). The 180 should also fix the matchup with crab to be much more favorable for crab. 65 was a thought I had to compensate for these genuinely heavy nerfs, though I think 60 will be okay. 53 too selfish imo.

If 2 extra damage means it gets a combo like that, then it's not really a slight buff. These buffs aren't bad things, but it's important to only add a combo like this if the weapon needs it and not just because you can. I don't want to assume you didn't put any thought at all into these, but based on the sheer amount of them it kinda seems like it.
As for falloff, it's possible to adjust the minimum damage or adjust the rate at which it decreases, like you did for jet squelcher. Increasing the base damage can work, but it will also have other effects, and if you slightly increase the base damage of a whole lot of things then people are going to start getting splatted faster and faster.
However, I don't think falloff actually needs changed; I think it should be weak (except for sloshers and stuff, obviously). If you lose a 1v1 because of your falloff damage, you should have been close to your opponent. I think line of sight weapons should have weak falloff because, well... they're line of sight weapons. I think it would get really annoying if shooters started being able to shoot down off of a ledge at you and still have good damage.

I'll go through all of them for my thought process on each:
S'Blast's was definitely unecessary and I fixed it to be back to what it was previously.
Goo is very weak so allowing it to get a kill charge faster involved a damage buff.
Dualie Squelchers was to combo with Chump indirects.
Tetras I already explained.
Bow was to allow it to kill more reliably because in its current state, it just doesn't do enough.
Wiper I thought the melee twoshot was cool and because of cooler kind of forcing wiper out of usage, I thought it'd be fine.
TSD was necessary because the og had 70 inner indirect and many weapons with TSD do not combo with 60.
96 was for reliability and I thought it was funny...
Octobrush was for reliability so I think I'll just change that to a fall off buff instead.
Liter's was a small compensation buff that made sense in my head (and a Chara video made me think hmmm, this is a cool idea).
The brellas I hopefully don't need to explain.
L-3 which like an idiot I forgot to put in the patch notes (29 to 31), was to allow for more reliable burst combos. There is no change in interaction otherwise whatsoever. I mean maybe consistency with H-3 with a 1 at the end of the damage, I dunno

 

[youre_a_squib_now]

Ink efficiency nerfs isn't really a solution because of how ink hungry chargers already are. Charger uses 18% and Liter uses 25%. Any more and they have one less shot, which is a genuinely insane nerf, which is why I didn't go with ink efficiency.

I didn't think about this. Would it be possible to increase the time before you can refill your ink, instead? But that would have to be a small nerf or it would feel terrible to use. What if you did that nerf (slightly) on liter, and then decreased the long range chargers' range by only 1 unit instead of 2? idk. But as someone who plays chargers a lot, 8% less range would feel terrible

With the other range nerfs, pencil will still outrange charger, but be much shorter than scope. The decrease in paint trail might be a bit much though, I'll maybe give some of the width back and set the damage back to 68.

You set it equal to your new vcharger range. I think it should be around (or exactly) halfway between charger and scope range.
The range nerf is also a paint nerf and I agree that having that and the paint trail nerf is too much. But if you decide to do a smaller range nerf, then it's probably fine to also do a smaller paint nerf. (or just give it 210p. or all of them)
70 damage is ridiculous though, definitely revert that one

Honestly, it might be worth me completely axing the clash change because similar to some other weapons, there really is no good way to balance it without being some semblance of a problem.

Unfortunately, yeah I can't think of anything either

I just checked. Octobrush takes 10 frames per swing while Pain takes 15 frames per swing. I think it would be okay because Pain's longer range would be a trade off to Octobrush's startup.

Huh. never trust google I guess
17 still feels on the fast side but it's probably fine then, the weapon needs buffs

The other two brushes might also need some buffs? I really don't play them but as far as I know none of the brushes are in a super great spot rn

Blob is really weird so it's hard to find a good way to make it balanced without it being incredibly annoying. I guess because we're so used to four bubbles, three feels weird so I get that.

I did end up making a thread for this

You actually have a pretty cool approach on dart. I personally won't bring it to 35% but keeping it at 40 damage, improve location time, and let the tripwire do some damage should be fine.

35% would kind of invalidate sub saver as well, since that could only take it down to 33.4% and that's not really a big difference. So I think 40% makes sense

I did find a way to add startup. Only issue is that it impacts every shot and doesn't feel very good to use. Though maybe that's fine.

If you increased the startup, would decreasing the endlag keep the time between shots the same while adding more startup on the first one?

Then from there, I do think having the direct do 180 is necessary because killing from across the map without SOME way to react is insanely dumb (You can live a 180 by squidroll).

Squid rolling a zooka feels silly so me. Vac and slider got buffed so you couldn't squid roll them, and it made using the special feel so much better because your giant death explosion was actually a giant death explosion. Giving every shot more startup makes it harder to react using a zooka, and that plus something like a 5% velocity nerf should make it feel more fair to fight without having to make it squidroll-able.

The 180 should also fix the matchup with crab to be much more favorable for crab.

I agree with this, but if the base damage isn't reduced (like I talked about above) then the damage specifically to crab and wall should be reduced. Maybe also for bubble and booyah.

65 was a thought I had to compensate for these genuinely heavy nerfs, though I think 60 will be okay. 53 too selfish imo.

Trizooka needs genuinely heavy nerfs lol. But especially if the delay is increased, it might be possible to survive two indirects in a row with only 53. So 60 is fine.

S'Blast's

THE SPELLING. WHY

Goo is very weak so allowing it to get a kill charge faster involved a damage buff.
Dualie Squelchers was to combo with Chump indirects.
Tetras I already explained.

All of these could do with slight buffs so I think these are good.

Bow was to allow it to kill more reliably because in its current state, it just doesn't do enough.

Can you explain this more? What's unreliable about bow and how does this fix it?

Wiper I thought the melee twoshot was cool and because of cooler kind of forcing wiper out of usage, I thought it'd be fine.

This probably won't be broken or anything, but I'm worried that it will discourage the charged slash direct. And I don't think that's something we should discourage

TSD was necessary because the og had 70 inner indirect and many weapons with TSD do not combo with 60.

Making landing a hit more rewarding is the right way to balance this imo. I also like the super jump change

Octobrush was for reliability so I think I'll just change that to a fall off buff instead.

Makes sense. It's octobrush so I'm in favor of a falloff buff for the same reason that vslosher got it. I also like it on jet squelcher to encourage it fighting more

Liter's was a small compensation buff that made sense in my head (and a Chara video made me think hmmm, this is a cool idea).

Do you know which video?
I like the concept of liter doing more damage though, since it's designed to feel powerful

The brellas I hopefully don't need to explain.

See this thread for my thoughts on brella and recycled brella. I actually don't think splat brella should get its 90 damage back, but I do think it should be more consistent. Maybe slightly increase the size of each pellet instead?

For undercover, I think going from 12/40 to 12/45 makes more sense than 15/45 because that way it still requires hitting 4 out of 7 pellets. That way, if you are fighting it, dodging does more because them hitting 3 pellets is still doing less damage.
Also, if the max damage is getting buffed to 45, the shield canopy really only needs to do 20. There's nothing wrong with 25 though, it doesn't make a huge difference

L-3 which like an idiot I forgot to put in the patch notes (29 to 31), was to allow for more reliable burst combos.

Same question as tri stringer. What's unreliable about this and how does this buff fix it

There is no change in interaction otherwise whatsoever.

This is just not true. 30 and 70 are pretty big combo numbers. I do think the buff is a good, helpful buff, but it's definitely not only buffing the burst combo.


Other things I think would be good:
the recycled brella buff in the thread from before
give dynamo its old paint back
idk how well this would work but dapples could get a 3rd roll, but if you use all 3 rolls the endlag is longer. I don't think it would invalidate the weapon's identity because it's still the shortest range weapon in the game, but it has more tools to get in now. but again, I'm not entirely sure

 

[Terret]

I didn't think about this. Would it be possible to increase the time before you can refill your ink, instead? But that would have to be a small nerf or it would feel terrible to use. What if you did that nerf (slightly) on liter, and then decreased the long range chargers' range by only 1 unit instead of 2? idk. But as someone who plays chargers a lot, 8% less range would feel terrible

White ink frames is definitely a potential solution, but at the same time, it doesn't matter how much it's changed, it's still incentivized to be even more difficult to use than they already are. Which would be okay if they all felt rewarding to use, but with the exception of Zekkofin scope, they really don't. You could maybe argue C-liter but even then that's because it has an insane clam blitz niche. As for why range of all things, it's a big nerf on paper but in terms of what changes in what the chargers outrange, no range interactions in comparison to weapons specifically actually changes with the POTENTIAL exception of hydra which tbh deserves some kind of leverage.

You set it equal to your new vcharger range. I think it should be around (or exactly) halfway between charger and scope range.
The range nerf is also a paint nerf and I agree that having that and the paint trail nerf is too much. But if you decide to do a smaller range nerf, then it's probably fine to also do a smaller paint nerf. (or just give it 210p. or all of them)
70 damage is ridiculous though, definitely revert that one

Fair. In the parameters pencil does have more range but by like .2 units. I'll make it 1.5 units greater if I'm lowering the effect of the paint width nerf.

Unfortunately, yeah I can't think of anything either

Radius nerf could work. From 40 to 37.5 units. I know it loses some identity but at the same time, I don't think it's current one is very good.

The other two brushes might also need some buffs? I really don't play them but as far as I know none of the brushes are in a super great spot rn

Honestly, I think inkbrush is okay. It just happens to be in an unfavorable meta. Octobrush though I do feel is a little weak as a main weapon hence why I did that damage buff. After all, it has Tri to compete with.

If you increased the startup, would decreasing the endlag keep the time between shots the same while adding more startup on the first one?

There are repeat frames (Interval of 65) that could be used to not deal with a 35 frame startup on the next two shots but you have to use them almost immediately after the previous.

Squid rolling a zooka feels silly so me. Vac and slider got buffed so you couldn't squid roll them, and it made using the special feel so much better because your giant death explosion was actually a giant death explosion. Giving every shot more startup makes it harder to react using a zooka, and that plus something like a 5% velocity nerf should make it feel more fair to fight without having to make it squidroll-able.

There is a significant difference between slider and Vac in that regard in that both of them are painfully predictable and slow. I see your point because both of them have gigantic radii though. That said, parrying a 180 is still not like you get off scott free, it's still a ton of damage that can be capitalized upon by any kind of long range or AOE.

Can you explain this more? What's unreliable about bow and how does this fix it?

Bow does not do damage whatsoever. You're forced to hit two of the arrows and hope the third one explodes for a kill. That is incredibly miserable to do. Increasing damage at max charge to 40 and increasing the explosion damage to 32.5 allows for one arrow and two explosions to kill, making bow a more prominent threat.

This probably won't be broken or anything, but I'm worried that it will discourage the charged slash direct. And I don't think that's something we should discourage

Not quite. The vertical has a dash the horizontals will not be able to do and in turn cannot reach. Plus, if charged before someone gets in that range, dash and kill anyway. So don't worry, that should be fine.

Do you know which video?
I like the concept of liter doing more damage though, since it's designed to feel powerful

Here:

Also why I started opening up to a range nerf. Though a partial charge killing which was also in there is something I dunno.

See this thread for my thoughts on brella and recycled brella. I actually don't think splat brella should get its 90 damage back, but I do think it should be more consistent. Maybe slightly increase the size of each pellet instead?

For undercover, I think going from 12/40 to 12/45 makes more sense than 15/45 because that way it still requires hitting 4 out of 7 pellets. That way, if you are fighting it, dodging does more because them hitting 3 pellets is still doing less damage.
Also, if the max damage is getting buffed to 45, the shield canopy really only needs to do 20. There's nothing wrong with 25 though, it doesn't make a huge difference

The brella take is a hot one, in a sense. Personally, I think needing to hit 7 pellets total is a bit too much in S3. S2, maybe it's a bit more fair. I get that 90 sounds scary, but this is not what it was in 2. There are many more things that can deal with it, even at 90. Blasters are extremely strong right now, buckets are always a good option, bows are REALLY good into brellas. So I feel like 90 damage is necessary to keep up pace with the behemoths of some of these weapons and knock some shooters down a peg. Also gives another answer to Squeezer which I feel is EXTREMELY necessary in the current game state.

Undercover change is fair though.

Same question as tri stringer. What's unreliable about this and how does this buff fix it

I did buff both of the nozzlenoses heavily (H-3 did not get a damage buff). I'll admit, L-3 doesn't have quite the reliability issues mentioned with dualie squelchers, bow or octobrush. That being said, if something is stuck on interval bursts, been gutted MISERABLY due to MPU from the previous game, and is forced to have a burst bomb to function in its current state, which doesn't even help because it got hammer (which because of synergy and distribution, I am likely not changing in kits), then I think it might be okay to allow L-3 to do 31, even with lightweight and jump rng removed.

Other things I think would be good:
the recycled brella buff in the thread from before

Recycled Brella I do want to see settle a little before I try to make changes. Same goes for Dousers. That said, I'll keep note.

give dynamo its old paint back

Roller paint parameters are weird so I haven't figured it out just yet. But I do plan to do this.

idk how well this would work but dapples could get a 3rd roll, but if you use all 3 rolls the endlag is longer. I don't think it would invalidate the weapon's identity because it's still the shortest range weapon in the game, but it has more tools to get in now. but again, I'm not entirely sure

Very interesting proposition, and I actually just figured out how to do it. Sure, shouldn't hurt.

 

[youre_a_squib_now]

White ink frames is definitely a potential solution, but at the same time, it doesn't matter how much it's changed, it's still incentivized to be even more difficult to use than they already are. Which would be okay if they all felt rewarding to use, but with the exception of Zekkofin scope, they really don't. You could maybe argue C-liter but even then that's because it has an insane clam blitz niche. As for why range of all things, it's a big nerf on paper but in terms of what changes in what the chargers outrange, no range interactions in comparison to weapons specifically actually changes with the POTENTIAL exception of hydra which tbh deserves some kind of leverage.


Here:

Also why I started opening up to a range nerf. Though a partial charge killing which was also in there is something I dunno.

I do think chargers feel rewarding to use, but I played some matches against them recently and I think I understand the problem more now. The problem is that chargers play too passively and control too much space by doing so. The 2 unit range nerf would encourage rotating more, and that strategy is too strong in general, so I'm fine with it. However, I think they need something back to help them position more aggressively if that's how we want the chargers to play. And the partial charge kill seems like a great way to do that. It would have to be instead of the charge speed buff though (which I am fine with because I don't want to relearn the charge time lol)

Again, I'm definitely biased towards chargers, but I feel like changes to weapons shouldn't make the weapons less fun for the people who play them.

Fair. In the parameters pencil does have more range but by like .2 units. I'll make it 1.5 units greater if I'm lowering the effect of the paint width nerf.

This makes it a 2.5 unit nerf compared to 7.0, correct? If so I think this is fine

Radius nerf could work. From 40 to 37.5 units. I know it loses some identity but at the same time, I don't think it's current one is very good.

I feel like changes to weapons shouldn't make the weapons less fun for the people who play them.

I don't think nerfing clash's radius is a great change for this same reason. A lot of casual players love the clash blaster and aerospray because of their insane hotbox and paint, respectively, and even if the weapons are weaker competitively, these players find them fun due to these traits.

However, these changes aren't actually going to affect splatoon 3. This mod is its own thing. which raises the question... who is it for, anyway? Is it fine to give clash a different identity, knowing that those players will probably just be playing regular splatoon 3 anyway? (And what identity would we give it?)

There are repeat frames (Interval of 65) that could be used to not deal with a 35 frame startup on the next two shots but you have to use them almost immediately after the previous.

I don't understand what you mean here.
The nerf I was trying to suggest is to increase the delay between pushing ZR and when the shot comes out.

There is a significant difference between slider and Vac in that regard in that both of them are painfully predictable and slow. I see your point because both of them have gigantic radii though. That said, parrying a 180 is still not like you get off scott free, it's still a ton of damage that can be capitalized upon by any kind of long range or AOE.

Yes, but one of the coolest things about zooka is how powerful it feels. It's just really satisfying to hit shots with it. If you successfully hit a zooka shot and they just squid rolled it, that's like... the opposite of satisfying. So even though this would be fine balance wise, that's not the only thing that we're trying to do. That's why I was suggesting other nerfs that would make it feel more fair to fight without making it feel unfair for the person using the zooka.

The brella take is a hot one, in a sense. Personally, I think needing to hit 7 pellets total is a bit too much in S3. S2, maybe it's a bit more fair. I get that 90 sounds scary, but this is not what it was in 2. There are many more things that can deal with it, even at 90. Blasters are extremely strong right now, buckets are always a good option, bows are REALLY good into brellas. So I feel like 90 damage is necessary to keep up pace with the behemoths of some of these weapons and knock some shooters down a peg. Also gives another answer to Squeezer which I feel is EXTREMELY necessary in the current game state.

The only reason I'm opposed to 90 damage is because of it overlapping with recycled brella. I feel like recycled brella should be the "let's go in and kill things" brella and the splat brella should be more focused on stalling. Because of that and some of the matchups you mentioned I think slightly increasing the shield health would be a better change. But I hardly ever play brellas and recycled brella is also really new. So it's hard to judge.

Recycled Brella I do want to see settle a little before I try to make changes. Same goes for Dousers. That said, I'll keep note.

I feel like this should also apply to brella. given what I just mentioned.

Very interesting proposition, and I actually just figured out how to do it. Sure, shouldn't hurt.

Is it possible to increase the endlag for specifically when all 3 rolls are used, but not when only 1 or 2 are used? If so, how much extra endlag do you think is fair? I think using the 3rd roll should be a higher risk / higher reward thing, but I don't know how much extra risk it needs.

Also, I think angle shooter should do 42 damage for the express purpose of not having combos ruined by 1 sub of sub defense. Recycled brella and blob deco in particular would benefit, but also it would make dart combo with teammates more often.

 

[Terret]

I do think chargers feel rewarding to use, but I played some matches against them recently and I think I understand the problem more now. The problem is that chargers play too passively and control too much space by doing so. The 2 unit range nerf would encourage rotating more, and that strategy is too strong in general, so I'm fine with it. However, I think they need something back to help them position more aggressively if that's how we want the chargers to play. And the partial charge kill seems like a great way to do that. It would have to be instead of the charge speed buff though (which I am fine with because I don't want to relearn the charge time lol)

Again, I'm definitely biased towards chargers, but I feel like changes to weapons shouldn't make the weapons less fun for the people who play them.

Charge time initially came in mind because that did seem like it would keep Goo with a unique identity (though tbh I dunno if that's worth keeping here) and killing with partial charges in my head sounded crazy. Though charge time decrease is also kinda crazy so I can see what you mean.

This makes it a 2.5 unit nerf compared to 7.0, correct? If so I think this is fine

Approximately so yeah.

I don't think nerfing clash's radius is a great change for this same reason. A lot of casual players love the clash blaster and aerospray because of their insane hotbox and paint, respectively, and even if the weapons are weaker competitively, these players find them fun due to these traits.

With all due respect on that, I'm pretty confident a lot more people hate the clash blaster radius than like it. That said, I get where you're coming from.

However, these changes aren't actually going to affect splatoon 3. This mod is its own thing. which raises the question... who is it for, anyway? Is it fine to give clash a different identity, knowing that those players will probably just be playing regular splatoon 3 anyway? (And what identity would we give it?)

I was initially trying to make the perfect balance patch but as time goes on, I realize that still misses the game's complete potential in a sense. So I started doing even more by altering some of the kits to either be more fun or more powerful depending on what I'm looking at. In short, at the moment, I don't have a true vision because I don't know what would make the game reach its fullest potential.

I don't understand what you mean here.
The nerf I was trying to suggest is to increase the delay between pushing ZR and when the shot comes out.

Repeat frames are a weird kind of parameter that allows for an action to repeat, like sloshing machine's interval that was nerfed by 5 frames. This usually bypasses startup that was on the first shot in exchange for waiting an interval. And increasing the delay between ZR and when the shot comes out is a bit hard to decide on since it's a nightmare to figure out an amount that would feel okay on EVERY shot. 15 to 35 was the best I could muster in that regard.

Yes, but one of the coolest things about zooka is how powerful it feels. It's just really satisfying to hit shots with it. If you successfully hit a zooka shot and they just squid rolled it, that's like... the opposite of satisfying. So even though this would be fine balance wise, that's not the only thing that we're trying to do. That's why I was suggesting other nerfs that would make it feel more fair to fight without making it feel unfair for the person using the zooka.

That is a good point. I think the startup, 8% radius nerf, and frame interval should be okay then. And to fix some damage multipliers.

The only reason I'm opposed to 90 damage is because of it overlapping with recycled brella. I feel like recycled brella should be the "let's go in and kill things" brella and the splat brella should be more focused on stalling. Because of that and some of the matchups you mentioned I think slightly increasing the shield health would be a better change. But I hardly ever play brellas and recycled brella is also really new. So it's hard to judge.

Damage overlap I generally don't think is that big of a deal for most weapon classes. Even with a seemingly similar role, they play quite differently. And the shield strength on reg brella is actually pretty strong already, being able to force a crab into using bullets to deal with brella since the cannon genuinely does nothing to it and able to block two jet shots with the shield before breaking. In short, the strength of reg brella and tent shields are so extreme that if they were better, that could span some problems, especially with tent.

Is it possible to increase the endlag for specifically when all 3 rolls are used, but not when only 1 or 2 are used? If so, how much extra endlag do you think is fair? I think using the 3rd roll should be a higher risk / higher reward thing, but I don't know how much extra risk it needs.

Sadly no.

Also, I think angle shooter should do 42 damage for the express purpose of not having combos ruined by 1 sub of sub defense. Recycled brella and blob deco in particular would benefit, but also it would make dart combo with teammates more often.

Don't worry, I'm making it do 45 (20 tripwire, 25 bonus for direct)

 

[McSquid82]

One buff in particular that I think would help Brellas not named Undercover is to reduce the ink consumption when holding the canopy open before launching it. I know firing them consumes a certain amount of ink but just holding the canopies open just seems to drain ink like crazy. I liken to a similar buff to when Rollers got improved ink consumption when rolling at top speed. I think the same principle could be applicable to this class. One last thing is to give Tenta Brella some of its durability back. The meta has changed so much since the last game, and so many weapons do increased damage against Brella Shields, especially Splatanas. MPU is long gone, so I don't see with reverting one of the major nerfs to the Tenta that came about directly because of it.

 

[Terret]

One buff in particular that I think would help Brellas not named Undercover is to reduce the ink consumption when holding the canopy open before launching it. I know firing them consumes a certain amount of ink but just holding the canopies open just seems to drain ink like crazy. I liken to a similar buff to when Rollers got improved ink consumption when rolling at top speed. I think the same principle could be applicable to this class. One last thing is to give Tenta Brella some of its durability back. The meta has changed so much since the last game, and so many weapons do increased damage against Brella Shields, especially Splatanas. MPU is long gone, so I don't see with reverting one of the major nerfs to the Tenta that came about directly because of it.

I like the idea of lowering the ink cost to hold the canopy for recycled Brella specifically. That said, I’m a little hesitant on giving to the other two since Brella has okay ink efficiency and Tent is already in a very good spot. Giving Tent some durability back I’m not opposed to though since I’m giving a LOT of weapons some kind of increased damage as well so Tent would likely be fine at 725 or 750. Probably going to make it 750

 

[youre_a_squib_now]

Charge time initially came in mind because that did seem like it would keep Goo with a unique identity (though tbh I dunno if that's worth keeping here) and killing with partial charges in my head sounded crazy. Though charge time decrease is also kinda crazy so I can see what you mean.

I think goo's identity is really cool and worth keeping, unlike blob's which is pretty universally considered not great for the game. It's just not great balance wise, and a 1st ring charge time buffs would go a long way. That said I do think its gimmick is underwhelming and should be buffed as well, but I'm not sure how.

Chara mentioned being able to keep your charge while throwing a sub, but I personally would find it difficult to hold down the R and ZR buttons at the same time (and I'm sure others would as well) and it would also probably be a nightmare to code.

Here's a weird buff I came up with on the spot: the more charge you have, the faster you swim. This would make playing around the gimmick more fun, and it would allow you to move more quickly from wherever you charged the charge to wherever you want to shoot it from.

I was initially trying to make the perfect balance patch but as time goes on, I realize that still misses the game's complete potential in a sense. So I started doing even more by altering some of the kits to either be more fun or more powerful depending on what I'm looking at. In short, at the moment, I don't have a true vision because I don't know what would make the game reach its fullest potential.

This is possibly the most important one to figure out out of all of them.

Repeat frames are a weird kind of parameter that allows for an action to repeat, like sloshing machine's interval that was nerfed by 5 frames. This usually bypasses startup that was on the first shot in exchange for waiting an interval. And increasing the delay between ZR and when the shot comes out is a bit hard to decide on since it's a nightmare to figure out an amount that would feel okay on EVERY shot. 15 to 35 was the best I could muster in that regard.

That is a good point. I think the startup, 8% radius nerf, and frame interval should be okay then. And to fix some damage multipliers.

So the delay between pushing ZR and the zooka shot was 15 frames, and now it's 35? If I'm understanding this correctly. 35 is probably fine but you definitely shouldn't go any higher because that would feel extremely bad to use

Damage overlap I generally don't think is that big of a deal for most weapon classes. Even with a seemingly similar role, they play quite differently. And the shield strength on reg brella is actually pretty strong already, being able to force a crab into using bullets to deal with brella since the cannon genuinely does nothing to it and able to block two jet shots with the shield before breaking. In short, the strength of reg brella and tent shields are so extreme that if they were better, that could span some problems, especially with tent.

This makes sense. I'll just trust you on this one.
Also I just realized undercover is no longer the weakest shield in the game

Looking at the reefslider buff again, it says you reduced the endlag by 20 frames, but also that "Invincibility frames after explosion were also adjusted to account for this change." Does this mean the i-frames also end 20 frames earlier? If so, this does help, but it doesn't really change much against bombs, or weapons with longer range than the explosion radius. I think it would make sense for the i-frames to be only 10 frames less and the endlag 20 frames less. That way, there are 10 less frames where you are vulnerable but stuck.

 

[Terret]

I think goo's identity is really cool and worth keeping, unlike blob's which is pretty universally considered not great for the game. It's just not great balance wise, and a 1st ring charge time buffs would go a long way. That said I do think its gimmick is underwhelming and should be buffed as well, but I'm not sure how.

Chara mentioned being able to keep your charge while throwing a sub, but I personally would find it difficult to hold down the R and ZR buttons at the same time (and I'm sure others would as well) and it would also probably be a nightmare to code.

Here's a weird buff I came up with on the spot: the more charge you have, the faster you swim. This would make playing around the gimmick more fun, and it would allow you to move more quickly from wherever you charged the charge to wherever you want to shoot it from.

I did buff the charge time to reach lethal damage one frame after Squiffer reaches max, but yeah I don't think that will be enough on its own. Allowing a sub and keeping charge is interesting but the problems you mentioned make me not so on board with it. That last idea is an awesome one and my only opposition is I have no idea how to code that :(. That would be a REALLY cool way to have a guy you should deal with quickly or they'll have a long range shot they can potentially kill you with AND they are schmoving. That would be so much fun.

This is possibly the most important one to figure out out of all of them.

I think I'll be more sure as time goes on. Probably going to take a break since I released 2.0 so I'll take some time to figure that out more clearly.

So the delay between pushing ZR and the zooka shot was 15 frames, and now it's 35? If I'm understanding this correctly. 35 is probably fine but you definitely shouldn't go any higher because that would feel extremely bad to use

Yes. 35 feels off in comparison to 15, but feels okay enough to me to not completely hate it. Though I do remember trying 45 and it was hilarious how bad that felt.

Also I just realized undercover is no longer the weakest shield in the game

WAIT TRUE BAHAHAHAHAHA!

Looking at the reefslider buff again, it says you reduced the endlag by 20 frames, but also that "Invincibility frames after explosion were also adjusted to account for this change." Does this mean the i-frames also end 20 frames earlier? If so, this does help, but it doesn't really change much against bombs, or weapons with longer range than the explosion radius. I think it would make sense for the i-frames to be only 10 frames less and the endlag 20 frames less. That way, there are 10 less frames where you are vulnerable but stuck.

I'd rather not give invincibility frames like that. Being invincible while being able to move around normally even for 10 frames is terrifying to me. That said, I actually plan to have the explosion negate bombs so when I figure that out, I think that will help. As for long range weapons, I'm not too worried, most of the weapons with slider are able to get enough value with the endlag drop alone so if a Liter is able to kill dapples right when they roll out of reefslider (which likely won't happen very often), I feel it is more of an extremely crazy thing you could do as counterplay, so I think that's fine.

Also, I want to say thank you for helping me out with this. It's hard to be completely sure of the best course of action with every weapon and you've helped me out quite a lot in giving ideas and understanding. Going to try to take a short break from the Wip for now. Always still open to feedback

 

[Terret]

Just updated it with more changes! :D Also discord server now: https://discord.gg/JJNDyBqE76

Starting to implement more changes! Some even to kits! 2.0 is out

 

[youre_a_squib_now]

Don't worry, I'm making it do 45 (20 tripwire, 25 bonus for direct)

Hmm. I think it should either be 42-43 or 47-48. Less because of angle shooter and more as a nerf to sub defense. the less combos that can be broken with one sub, the better

I did buff the charge time to reach lethal damage one frame after Squiffer reaches max, but yeah I don't think that will be enough on its own. Allowing a sub and keeping charge is interesting but the problems you mentioned make me not so on board with it. That last idea is an awesome one and my only opposition is I have no idea how to code that :(. That would be a REALLY cool way to have a guy you should deal with quickly or they'll have a long range shot they can potentially kill you with AND they are schmoving. That would be so much fun.

I'm confused. If goo has essentially the same charge time as squiffer, what's different about the two weapons aside from squiffer charging in the air and goo having a faster charge hold? Why would goo need more buffs than this to be as good as squiffer, and why would you ever use squiffer over it?

I'd rather not give invincibility frames like that. Being invincible while being able to move around normally even for 10 frames is terrifying to me. That said, I actually plan to have the explosion negate bombs so when I figure that out, I think that will help. As for long range weapons, I'm not too worried, most of the weapons with slider are able to get enough value with the endlag drop alone so if a Liter is able to kill dapples right when they roll out of reefslider (which likely won't happen very often), I feel it is more of an extremely crazy thing you could do as counterplay, so I think that's fine.

Whenever I play weapons with longer range than the reefslider explosion (basically always) reefsliders are some of the freest kills for me. Especially on charger and liter, I legitimately don't remember the last time I didn't splat a reefslider user in its endlag. Due to this, I was under the impression that there was a period of time when the user was immobile but could still take damage. My suggestion was intended to reduce this time. Upon actually looking it up, no such time period exists.
When I looked it up, I saw that the invinciblity/endlag lasts 28 frames. I didn't realize how insane a 20 frame buff would be. So I think if you're reducing the endlag by that much, then slider doesn't really need any other buffs (outside of eating bombs ofc).

Also, I want to say thank you for helping me out with this. It's hard to be completely sure of the best course of action with every weapon and you've helped me out quite a lot in giving ideas and understanding. Going to try to take a short break from the Wip for now. Always still open to feedback

Thanks for listening to my ideas (and telling me when I was wrong!) The more perspectives the better on these kinds of things

 

[Terret]

Hmm. I think it should either be 42-43 or 47-48. Less because of angle shooter and more as a nerf to sub defense. the less combos that can be broken with one sub, the better

Fair point. That said, the number kind of feels weird in the standpoint in that it’s a sub. Ending with a 5 or 0 is something that remained consistent with every sub. I might be a bit more open to the idea if changes to sub weapons in the future involves changing damage numbers to be outside. Dumb reasoning, yeah but consistency has been something I was and to an extent still am kind of obsessed with back when I first made patch ideas (when it was simply a doc)

I'm confused. If goo has essentially the same charge time as squiffer, what's different about the two weapons aside from squiffer charging in the air and goo having a faster charge hold? Why would goo need more buffs than this to be as good as squiffer, and why would you ever use squiffer over it?

That is a good question. That said, an extended charge hold while sounds insane, is not actually that good, and a faster road to lethal charge while does help, is not going to do anything crazy. Now that it matches Squiffer’s charge time maybe there’s something that could be unique in that regard, but otherwise, Squiffer still has a significant advantage in that max charge speed in the air is a huge mobility buff, which is why I do think Squiffer will still have leverage, especially since I made it lightweight as well. Goo however might actually not need any more buffs thinking about it now since both of the kits (aside from stamp hitboxes being dumb and I am hoping to fix that) are pretty good.


Looking back, I feel like the current state of the project now is that I don’t really know what needs to be changed. Feedback and testing is kind of the phase it’s in so I think I’ll hold off on balance changes for a bit. Still accepting ideas but may be a little hesitant on adding before more texting in actual games is done (no idea how to do that without getting banned so atm, it may even be on hold in terms of balance).

 

[youre_a_squib_now]

Fair point. That said, the number kind of feels weird in the standpoint in that it’s a sub. Ending with a 5 or 0 is something that remained consistent with every sub. I might be a bit more open to the idea if changes to sub weapons in the future involves changing damage numbers to be outside. Dumb reasoning, yeah but consistency has been something I was and to an extent still am kind of obsessed with back when I first made patch ideas (when it was simply a doc)

Yeah, suggesting a 47 damage sub did feel weird. But I think that trend is part of why 1 sub of bomb defense is so good right now, because there are so many combinations that do exactly 100 damage.

That is a good question. That said, an extended charge hold while sounds insane, is not actually that good, and a faster road to lethal charge while does help, is not going to do anything crazy. Now that it matches Squiffer’s charge time maybe there’s something that could be unique in that regard, but otherwise, Squiffer still has a significant advantage in that max charge speed in the air is a huge mobility buff, which is why I do think Squiffer will still have leverage, especially since I made it lightweight as well. Goo however might actually not need any more buffs thinking about it now since both of the kits (aside from stamp hitboxes being dumb and I am hoping to fix that) are pretty good.

I was worried about the charge hold swim speed buff being like the squiffer movement, and with the charge times being very similar I was afraid they would overlap. But since you haven't added that, I think it's fine for now. I'm still a little worried about them potentially outclassing each other though.

Looking back, I feel like the current state of the project now is that I don’t really know what needs to be changed. Feedback and testing is kind of the phase it’s in so I think I’ll hold off on balance changes for a bit. Still accepting ideas but may be a little hesitant on adding before more texting in actual games is done (no idea how to do that without getting banned so atm, it may even be on hold in terms of balance).

Well there's definitely no doing tournaments with it.

Especially not while the game is still getting updates. Idk about PBs though.

As for what needs balanced, I feel like there's still a little more that we already know can be done with the sub and special balance. Vac and chumps come to mind as underwhelming specials that didn't get any buffs yet. I also like what you've done with the weaker subs, but sprinkler especially doesn't feel like it does much right now, and the stronger subs haven't gotten any nerfs. (Although it might be enough to buff the other subs up to their level.)

And yes, definitely take a break if you feel like you need one. Breaks are good!

 

[a hot mess]

new patch, triple splashdown's range goes to hell and dies

 

[youre_a_squib_now]

Also. idk if you already have this, but adding a custom version number should trigger the game's built-in safeguards and make sure people don't accidentally lobby with regular players while they have the mod, or lobby with people who have a different version. Maybe something like 333.[current version number]?

 

[Terret]

Also. idk if you already have this, but adding a custom version number should trigger the game's built-in safeguards and make sure people don't accidentally lobby with regular players while they have the mod, or lobby with people who have a different version. Maybe something like 333.[current version number]?

I still am going to need to figure something like that out. The only notably safe way to play is via LAN play or local so it’s not quite a priority but will be noted regardless

 

[Terret]

new patch, triple splashdown's range goes to hell and dies

Nah lol. Maybe in a joke modpack I’ll do it

 

[a hot mess]

in your joke modpack, you should make panicking alla mambo a curling bomb and replace the battle music with gummy bear screw it i will list some ideas below