Making a hypothetical balance patch and screwing with some kits

[youre_a_squib_now]

While there are a lot of things with repeat frames, none of the subs actually have them which is kind of interesting. I admittedly can’t help but feel like you’re trying to make dart a weapon within itself

Now that I read this again, I don't think making dart a weapon in itself is what I'm trying to do. What I'm trying to do is make it so that dart can be used more often and be less punishing when you miss. Making dart its own weapon is what I was trying to prevent with the repeat frames, forcing you to use your main weapon in between. So if you use your main with some darts thrown in, it's a fast, cheap sub, but if you fight with only darts, then it's a slow sub that uses up your ink tank after only 3 shots.

 

[Terret]

I mean... why not?
A weaker sub that you can use more often sounds really cool to me. They tried this in Splatoon 1 with burst bomb, but it turned out not to be a weaker sub (it was 25%, now it has to be 45% lol) and I think dart is their second attempt at this.

The problem then was the fact that at the time, they had no idea how to balance the game. I won’t deny, it sounds extremely fun, but if a sub is going to cost as much or less than a full Hydra charge, then that’s genuinely dumb imo because that kills what most subs are meant to be. A heavy investment. Every lethal bomb is an investment in that you risk a large portion of your ink tank to try to take space or maybe get a pick. Every utility sub is an investment in a similar manner in that sprinkler would give passive paint while you fire to justify 60% of the tank, sensor May make me less able but will help my team be more able to nuke the enemy out of existence, mines will keep my uptime or the zone up in the long run by burning 60% now, I may lose a lot of my ability to fight with less than half my tank left but I believe dropping a mist in that choke will slow down the opponents long enough to make it worth it. My point is, every sub SHOULD have a risk to messing it up and removing that risk is not a good approach to balancing things unless it is REALLY not worth the cost (example: curling at 65 when fizzy is at 60, mist is sad and until special depletion becomes real, 55 is a temporary solution). Which a dart that can do 45 from Liter range, with a tripwire that does 20, that both easily combo with Rapid Pro, shaves a shot off MANY weapons, it’s fine. I may change my mind after more testing though. And in terms of nerfing the attributes I just mentioned to make three darts more fair, why would I do that? That just removes the reward from an already less than satisfying sub. 3 darts is funny, but until I really test it and think otherwise, it’s a resounding no

 

[youre_a_squib_now]

The problem then was the fact that at the time, they had no idea how to balance the game. I won’t deny, it sounds extremely fun, but if a sub is going to cost as much or less than a full Hydra charge, then that’s genuinely dumb imo because that kills what most subs are meant to be. A heavy investment. Every lethal bomb is an investment in that you risk a large portion of your ink tank to try to take space or maybe get a pick. Every utility sub is an investment in a similar manner in that sprinkler would give passive paint while you fire to justify 60% of the tank, sensor May make me less able but will help my team be more able to nuke the enemy out of existence, mines will keep my uptime or the zone up in the long run by burning 60% now, I may lose a lot of my ability to fight with less than half my tank left but I believe dropping a mist in that choke will slow down the opponents long enough to make it worth it.

Just because subs right now are a heavy investment doesn't mean that they all have to be.

My point is, every sub SHOULD have a risk to messing it up and removing that risk is not a good approach to balancing things unless it is REALLY not worth the cost.

Why not? What's the problem with having a sub that isn't as punishing to mess up?

Which a dart that can do 45 from Liter range, with a tripwire that does 20, that both easily combo with Rapid Pro, shaves a shot off MANY weapons, it’s fine. I may change my mind after more testing though. And in terms of nerfing the attributes I just mentioned, why would I do that? That just removes the reward from an already less than satisfying sub.

If the ink consumption was lowered to 30%, I don't think it would need nerfs other than the repeat frames. I only mentioned reducing the tripwire damage in case tripwire spam became a problem.
And it is satisfying to use, even in its current state in vanilla Splatoon. Dart combos are some of the most satisfying things in the game... when you actually get the chance to use them. Less ink consumption means you get more chances.

3 darts is funny, but until I really test it and think otherwise, it’s a resounding no

It would be very different from every other sub in the game, but I think that's okay. And as you mentioned, it would be extremely fun.

 

[Terret]

Just because subs right now are a heavy investment doesn't mean that they all have to be.

I see your point. Subs being a big investment has kind of felt fundamental in that regard which is why I’m hesitant on breaking that.

Why not? What's the problem with having a sub that isn't as punishing to mess up?

In my head, I just really didn’t like the lack of risk on something that has been fundamentally risky since the S1 burst nerf. Looking back though, every sub has its low risk spots like bombs being spammed by spawn or to poke someone in downtime or Beakons after winning a team fight so this cheap cost might make up for that.

If the ink consumption was lowered to 30%, I don't think it would need nerfs other than the repeat frames. I only mentioned reducing the tripwire damage in case tripwire spam became a problem.
And it is satisfying to use, even in its current state in vanilla Splatoon. Dart combos are some of the most satisfying things in the game... when you actually get the chance to use them. Less ink consumption means you get more chances.

Fair. Tripwire might be a problem though so maybe I’ll tone that down to 15 from 20 and then the ultra terrifying oneshot combo with Rapid Pro Deco doesn’t have to exist. Or maybe just nerf the direct to 40 to prevent two directs and a tripwire killing. Maybe paint radius nerf by a small margin as well.

It would be very different from every other sub in the game, but I think that's okay. And as you mentioned, it would be extremely fun.

I do still need to test it to see if this would be insane though. 7.1 came out though, so that might be a little difficult to do since I got to copy all of the files I have modded to make them work for 7.1. That and my week has been crazy so may be a bit to test. I’ll try to find some time over the weekend

 

[youre_a_squib_now]

Fair. Tripwire might be a problem though so maybe I’ll tone that down to 15 from 20 and then the ultra terrifying oneshot combo with Rapid Pro Deco doesn’t have to exist. Or maybe just nerf the direct to 40 to prevent two directs and a tripwire killing. Maybe paint radius nerf by a small margin as well.

The rapid pro combo would still exist, but one sub of sub defense would break it.

What if the tripwire does 17.5 damage? It's still a nerf from 20, but doesn't go all the way down to 15, and unlike the numbers I suggested here, 17.5 still feels like a round number. It would also mean that pretty much any combo that the tripwire has (like RPD) wouldn't break from sub defense (which is why I suggested 17.5 instead of 15). Then the direct can be 27.5 for a total of 45 damage. (I also like how 17.5 and 27.5 mirror each other. looking at it just makes me really happy inside for some reason.) And lets be fair, if someone hits two directs in a row they deserve to have the tripwire kill

17.5 feels like a good number for the tripwire so that it is threatening but only if used together with other things. Even if someone decided to use 90% of their ink tank on throwing three tripwires and the other player somehow ran into all 3, that still only does just over 50 damage. And I think 50 damage also feels like a fair number for running over 3 tripwires in a row. Also note that 3 tripwires and a direct doesn't kill.

 

[OnePotWonder]

Hey, since it seems you're on the topic of Angle Shooter, I'd like to propose some of my ideas.
Mainly, increasing the duration of the tripwire and location, and more outlandishly, making it target enemies in a narrow cone when it bounces off of a wall. The whole point is supposed to be hitting and marking people behind cover, right? Why not make it do that?

 

[a hot mess]

yada yada, make all weapons ink output like how i remember in the early days of splatoon 1.
cant say it's not balanced if every weapon's ink output is the same, eh?

 

[youre_a_squib_now]

Hey, since it seems you're on the topic of Angle Shooter, I'd like to propose some of my ideas.
Mainly, increasing the duration of the tripwire and location, and more outlandishly, making it target enemies in a narrow cone when it bounces off of a wall. The whole point is supposed to be hitting and marking people behind cover, right? Why not make it do that?

Personally, I think the tripwire should only mark you long enough to let the opponent know you're there. That is one of the main purposes of a tripwire, after all. Maybe 2 seconds? In return I think it's fair to give it a longer tracking duration on direct, but more importantly, to make the duration not get absolutely DESTROYED by sub defense. Like seriously, why does 1 sub reduce the time from 5 seconds to 4? It's ridiculous.
I do agree that the tripwire duration is a bit short, though. 2 seconds really isn't a lot of time if you're actually using it as a tripwire. However, it shouldn't be buffed too much to avoid it getting annoying, especially since you can throw two of them, maybe three. I think 3 seconds seems fair.

I'm opposed to auto-aiming on dart mostly because it would make it less fun. It's so much more satisfying to land a dart combo knowing that you had to have that precise aim, and you did. That's what makes dart combos more satisfying than burst combos. Giving it auto-aim takes that away.

 

[a hot mess]

angle shouldn't be a tripwire, it should be more like those MLG crosshairs, or pearl drone's target lock (visually and it damages you)

 

[youre_a_squib_now]

angle shouldn't be a tripwire, it should be more like those MLG crosshairs, or pearl drone's target lock (visually and it damages you)

at this point you're describing a different sub

 

[a hot mess]

At this point, I understand why Marina wanted a world of order.

 

[a hot mess]

change suffer no fools to this, no one will notice

 

[a hot mess]

and this needs to be the squid sisters talking noises in the plaza in the studio at daytime

 

[Terret]

Hey, since it seems you're on the topic of Angle Shooter, I'd like to propose some of my ideas.
Mainly, increasing the duration of the tripwire and location, and more outlandishly, making it target enemies in a narrow cone when it bounces off of a wall. The whole point is supposed to be hitting and marking people behind cover, right? Why not make it do that?

Duration of the location is a good idea since the current length is stupidly short. But having it target enemies, even in a small cone is not only insane, but also not very fun for the user.If the dart split into forming a cone upon impact, I feel that’d be really interesting, but I have no idea on how to implement that

 

[youre_a_squib_now]

I've been playing goo tuber and pondering how best to balance it and the other chargers. Can you confirm this data?
I can't see the changes you made in 1.0 anymore, so I think I'm missing those. Goober for example.


Splatoon 3 7.0.0
charge time (frames) / range (units) / damage

			goo			pencil
tap shot	8 / 20.75 / 30	8 / 10.75 / 40	8 / 13.75 / 40	8 / 10.75 / 40	8 / 10.75 / 40	8 / 10.76 / 40	8 / 10.75 / 40	8 / 10.75 / 40
100 dmg	-	-	? / ? / 100	-	-	-	-	-
max partial	-	45 / 18.25 / 80	75 / 19.95 / 130	60 / 25.75 / 80	60 / 25.75 / 80	72 / 25.77 / 68	92 / 30.76 / 80	92 / 30.76 / 80
full charge	20 / 20.75 / 85	45 / 18.25 / 140	75 / 20.95 / 180	60 / 25.75 / 160	60 / 27.75 / 160	72 / 27.77 / 68	92 / 30.76 / 180	92 / 32.76 / 180

Riibalanced 2.0
charge time (frames) / range (units) / damage
(changes are underlined)

			goo			pencil
tap shot	8 / 20.75 / 30	8 / 10.75 / 40	8 / 13.75 / 40	8 / 10.75 / 40	8 / 10.75 / 40	8 / 10.76 / 40	8 / 10.75 / 43	8 / 10.75 / 43
100 dmg	-	-	? / ? / 100	-	-	-	-	-
max partial	-	45 / 18.25 / 80	75 / 19.95 / 130	60 / 23.75 / 80	60 / 23.75? / 80	72 / 22.98? / 68	92 / 28.76 / 80	92 / 28.76? / 80
full charge	20 / 20.75 / 85	45 / 18.25 / 140	75 / 20.95 / 180	60 / 23.75 / 160	60 / 25.75 / 160	72 / 24.98 / 68	92 / 28.76 / 180	92 / 30.76 / 180

 

[Terret]

I've been playing goo tuber and pondering how best to balance it and the other chargers. Can you confirm this data?
I can't see the changes you made in 1.0 anymore, so I think I'm missing those. Goober for example.


Splatoon 3 7.0.0
charge time (frames) / range (units) / damage

			goo			pencil
tap shot	8 / 20.75 / 30	8 / 10.75 / 40	8 / 13.75 / 40	8 / 10.75 / 40	8 / 10.75 / 40	8 / 10.76 / 40	8 / 10.75 / 40	8 / 10.75 / 40
100 dmg	-	-	? / ? / 100	-	-	-	-	-
max partial	-	45 / 18.25 / 80	75 / 19.95 / 130	60 / 25.75 / 80	60 / 25.75 / 80	72 / 25.77 / 68	92 / 30.76 / 80	92 / 30.76 / 80
full charge	20 / 20.75 / 85	45 / 18.25 / 140	75 / 20.95 / 180	60 / 25.75 / 160	60 / 27.75 / 160	72 / 27.77 / 68	92 / 30.76 / 180	92 / 32.76 / 180

Riibalanced 2.0
charge time (frames) / range (units) / damage
(changes are underlined)

			goo			pencil
tap shot	8 / 20.75 / 30	8 / 10.75 / 40	8 / 13.75 / 40	8 / 10.75 / 40	8 / 10.75 / 40	8 / 10.76 / 40	8 / 10.75 / 43	8 / 10.75 / 43
100 dmg	-	-	? / ? / 100	-	-	-	-	-
max partial	-	45 / 18.25 / 80	75 / 19.95 / 130	60 / 23.75 / 80	60 / 23.75? / 80	72 / 22.98? / 68	92 / 28.76 / 80	92 / 28.76? / 80
full charge	20 / 20.75 / 85	45 / 18.25 / 140	75 / 20.95 / 180	60 / 23.75 / 160	60 / 25.75 / 160	72 / 24.98 / 68	92 / 28.76 / 180	92 / 30.76 / 180

Yup, the ranges are accurate. Pencil might be a little off (by like .05 units) but that’s something for me to double check when I get a better chance to look. As for goo, it takes 53 frames normally and 46 frames in riibalanced to charge to the first ring. Damage values at min and max are 45 and 145 respectively. Charge times are currently 58 for chargers, 88 for Liters.

 

[youre_a_squib_now]

Yup, the ranges are accurate. Pencil might be a little off (by like .05 units) but that’s something for me to double check when I get a better chance to look. As for goo, it takes 53 frames normally and 46 frames in riibalanced to charge to the first ring. Damage values at min and max are 45 and 145 respectively. Charge times are currently 58 for chargers, 88 for Liters.

And the damage and range just go up linearly, right? So a half-charged squiffer would do 60 damage and have 14.5 units of range?

 

[Terret]

And the damage and range just go up linearly, right? So a half-charged squiffer would do 60 damage and have 14.5 units of range?

Range goes up linearly with the only exception being max charge where some charges get a small leap in range which doesn’t affect the range of the first ring full charge

 

[youre_a_squib_now]

Range goes up linearly with the only exception being max charge where some charges get a small leap in range which doesn’t affect the range of the first ring full charge

If the same applies for damage, then the first ring takes 53 frames normally and 45 in riibalanced, not 46.
I could be making some sort of fence post error with counting frames though.

Spoiler: my math

The damage scales linearly from 40 to 130 from frames 8 to 75.
To reach 100 damage, it needs to be (100-40)/(130-40) = 67% charged.
It is 67% charged after 0.67*(75-8)+8 = 52.67 rounded up is 53 frames.

The same math for riibalanced gives (100-45)/(145-45)*(75-8)+8 = 44.85 rounded up is 45 frames.

I'm going to go with 45 for now considering that it also lines up with 100.4 being the lowest possible damage above 100 (without jumping or running out of ink)

I'm going to do some more testing, but to avoid giving people a bunch of irrelevant notifs I'll be editing it into this post.

Spoiler: the testing

If my math is correct, here is every possible damage that can be dealt without jumping or running out of ink:

frame	8	9	10	11	12	13	14	15	16	17	18	19	20	21	22	23	24	25	26	27	28	29	30	31	32	33	34	35	36	37	38	39	40	41
damage	40.0	41.3	42.6	44.0	45.3	46.7	48.0	49.4	50.7	52.0	53.4	54.7	56.1	57.4	58.8	60.1	61.4	62.8	64.1	65.5	66.8	68.2	69.5	70.8	72.2	73.5	74.9	76.2	77.6	78.9	80.2	81.6	82.9	84.3

frame	42	43	44	45	46	47	48	49	50	51	52	53	54	55	56	57	58	59	60	61	62	63	64	65	66	67	68	69	70	71	72	73	74	75
damage	85.6	87.0	88.3	89.7	91.0	92.3	93.7	95.0	96.4	97.7	99.1	100.4	101.7	103.1	104.4	105.8	107.1	108.5	109.8	111.1	112.5	113.8	115.2	116.5	117.9	119.2	120.5	121.9	123.2	124.6	125.9	127.3	128.6	180

Every time I shoot a target, the damage is always one of these numbers, never anything else. This means that these numbers are correct; I see no way that it can be argued otherwise. The frame numbers can't all be off by one because the first and last ones are correct.

Doing the same math for riibalanced gives this:

frame	42	43	44	45	46	47	48	49
damage	95.7	97.2	98.7	100.2	101.7	103.2	104.7	106.1

Unless there is some error in this that I haven't noticed, charging goo tuber to 100 damage only takes 45 frames.

edit: I did the testing and it is indeed only 45 frames for the first charge ring

 

[youre_a_squib_now]

Updated tables for future reference.

Splatoon 3 7.0.0
charge time (frames) / range (units) / damage

			goo			pencil
tap shot	8 / 20.75 / 30	8 / 10.75 / 40	8 / 13.75 / 40	8 / 10.75 / 40	8 / 10.75 / 40	8 / 10.76 / 40	8 / 10.75 / 40	8 / 10.75 / 40
100 dmg	-	-	53 / 17.91 / 100.4	-	-	-	-	-
max partial	-	45 / 18.25 / 80	75 / 19.95 / 130	60 / 25.75 / 80	60 / 25.75 / 80	72 / 25.77 / 68	92 / 30.76 / 80	92 / 30.76 / 80
full charge	20 / 20.75 / 85	45 / 18.25 / 140	75 / 20.95 / 180	60 / 25.75 / 160	60 / 27.75 / 160	72 / 27.77 / 68	92 / 30.76 / 180	92 / 32.76 / 180

Riibalanced 2.0/2.1
charge time (frames) / range (units) / damage
(changes are underlined)

			goo			pencil
tap shot	8 / 20.75 / 30	8 / 10.75 / 40	8 / 13.75 / 45	8 / 10.75 / 40	8 / 10.75 / 40	8 / 10.76 / 40	8 / 10.75 / 43	8 / 10.75 / 43
100 dmg	-	-	45 / 17.17 / 100.2	-	-	-	-	-
max partial	-	45 / 18.25 / 80	75 / 19.95 / 145	58 / 23.75 / 80	58 / 23.75 / 80	72 / 22.98 / 68	88 / 28.76 / 80	88 / 28.76 / 80
full charge	20 / 20.75 / 85	45 / 18.25 / 140	75 / 20.95 / 180	58 / 23.75 / 160	58 / 25.75 / 160	72 / 24.98 / 68	88 / 28.76 / 180	88 / 30.76 / 180