Screwing with kits as well

[youre_a_squib_now]

I'm not really talking about balance here, just synergy. Giving weapons kits they like should be more important than sub and special distribution.

 

[youre_a_squib_now]

I have a pretty long kits post coming up going over my initial (yes, initial) thoughts on every kit, but I have some projects rn so it might be a while

so I didn't, like, die or anything

 

[OnePotWonder]

Could we replace Killer Wail 5.1 on v.52 with Triple Inkstrike? The special not only has infinitely better synergy, but it frees up Wails to be put on more weapons that work well with it, like Sloshing Machine. No need to worry about redundancy because it's the Wall kit, and Neo Splash has already had its special changed to Zip.

 

[Terret]

Could we replace Killer Wail 5.1 on v.52 with Triple Inkstrike? The special not only has infinitely better synergy, but it frees up Wails to be put on more weapons that work well with it, like Sloshing Machine. No need to worry about redundancy because it's the Wall kit, and Neo Splash has already had its special changed to Zip.

Might need to change a lot of other kits due to it (primarily Ttek and maybe NeoSploosh and Zap) but if I figure that out sure. There is a bit of anti synergy though in that once the wall is broken, you can’t immediately throw another. Though that might be a good thing

 

[youre_a_squib_now]

I think overlapping with ttek and the others is a good reason not to give it strikes. .52 is what needs changed, not ttek. And yes, it wouldn't completely overlap, because .52 has wall, but I still think they would be too similar. And I wouldn't be bringing it up at all if I didn't have a better idea anyway.

What about wave breaker? It does 55 damage now, so it's one of the few specials that would actually combo well with the main weapon. It would help it control an area better, because getting hit by a wave gives it a really threatening 1 shot, and jumping over a wave forces you to follow a predictable trajectory for a short time, which also leaves you vulnerable. Wave itself isn't the best special right now, but that's a balance problem, not a kit problem. The synergy is very much there. It would also still function as an ink tank refill, but it would be a much slower and more punishable one, so it would have to be used more safely. This gets rid of the annoying part of the ink refill, without removing it entirely and making the weapon feel worse to play.

Also, bonus points for being able to throw a wall and put the wave breaker behind it. We should be careful with doing funny at the expense of actual synergy, but this has both and I like that. (Edit: I don't mean that putting the wave behind a wall would have good synergy. I mean that being able to do it doesn't come at the cost of removing the insane synergy that the kit does have.)

 

[OnePotWonder]

I think overlapping with ttek and the others is a good reason not to give it strikes. .52 is what needs changed, not ttek. And yes, it wouldn't completely overlap, because .52 has wall, but I still think they would be too similar. And I wouldn't be bringing it up at all if I didn't have a better idea anyway.

What about wave breaker? It does 55 damage now, so it's one of the few specials that would actually combo well with the main weapon. It would help it control an area better, because getting hit by a wave gives it a really threatening 1 shot, and jumping over a wave forces you to follow a predictable trajectory for a short time, which also leaves you vulnerable. Wave itself isn't the best special right now, but that's a balance problem, not a kit problem. The synergy is very much there. It would also still function as an ink tank refill, but it would be a much slower and more punishable one, so it would have to be used more safely. This gets rid of the annoying part of the ink refill, without removing it entirely and making the weapon feel worse to play.

Also, bonus points for being able to throw a wall and put the wave breaker behind it. We should be careful with doing funny at the expense of actual synergy, but this has both and I like that. (Edit: I don't mean that putting the wave behind a wall would have good synergy. I mean that being able to do it doesn't come at the cost of removing the insane synergy that the kit does have.)

I personally disagree for two reasons; a) .52 Gal with Wall should not be any better than it is now; it’s being run often in comp play despite having an off-meta special with no synergy outside of an instant ink refill. It having a 55 damage Wave Breaker genuinely sounds like hell. Sorry. b) Triple Inkstrike is perfect on Gal, to the point where I think the argument that it should instead stay on Ttek instead is folly. Ttek is forced to stay back to use its special, while Gal can use its Splash Wall to protect itself in the special. The kit synergizes too well, and completely removes the annoying instant wall regeneration it has now.

I feel like the Splash Wall should compliment the special, not the other way around.
Also Wave would fit way better on .96 Gal.
That my take, anyway.

 

[youre_a_squib_now]

a) .52 Gal with Wall should not be any better than it is now; it’s being run often in comp play despite having an off-meta special with no synergy outside of an instant ink refill. It having a 55 damage Wave Breaker genuinely sounds like hell. Sorry.

I was going to say this is a balance issue and not a kit issue, but wall + an ink refill would be next to impossible to nerf without completely destroying all of the other wall kits. So you have a point there.

b) Triple Inkstrike is perfect on Gal, to the point where I think the argument that it should instead stay on Ttek instead is folly. Ttek is forced to stay back to use its special, while Gal can use its Splash Wall to protect itself in the special. The kit synergizes too well, and completely removes the annoying instant wall regeneration it has now.

This is a good point as well. Strikes and wall really would go well together.

Neither .52 kit currently has a special that really suits it. And we are discussing two specials that would suit it very well. So the wall kit can get strikes, and the other kit can get wave breaker. Everyone wins.

Also Wave would fit way better on .96 Gal.

Think about the ranges of the two specials. v96 could use its long range main weapon to play off of the range of the strikes in a way no other weapon can right now, without even needing a wall. They would be very good at moving opponents into your line of sight. Whereas with wave breaker, it wouldn't really be able to throw it far enough to stay as far back as it likes, especially without a wall.


For the subs, I think .96 and .52 deco can keep their current ones (from base splatoon). As much as I dislike sprinkler as a sub, .96 is probably one of the few weapons that actually synergizes with it, so it should be fine if we ever figure out how to fix sprinkler. Paint is a serious weakness of this weapon, so sprinkler would mean your teammates don't have to compensate for your lack of paint quite as much. And .52 with curling and wave would be such a cool and unique playstyle. The vanilla kit is slowed down by its wall and heavy ink consumption (especially without wail), but with a 45% cost curling and an ink refill, .52 deco could be very mobile and in-your-face. This mobility and aggression would also let it play off of the waves really well, since it wouldn't have any problem rushing an opponent who jumped over one or got hit by one.

I'm just now realizing the .96 kit was changed already so I'll go over that too. I don't think zooka really makes sense for it because it doesn't need that much help against long ranged weapons; it is the long ranged weapon. And I don't see any point for sensor on it outside of helping to hit your zooka shots. It doesn't really add much to the weapon; location isn't a huge weakness for it, but paint definitely is.

The only other thing to figure out to go with this change would be what special to give ttek, since there shouldn't really be three shooters with strikes. Inkjet would synergize with it, but neo sploosh has splat bomb inkjet, and also it already had that in S2. Booyah bomb or reefslider could work for it, but I think the best choice here is triple splashdown. (especially with .52 deco having wave.) I know you already gave vshot TSD, but I think that's unnecessary since the current kit works on it really well; the problem is just that zooka is very overtuned. I do like the idea of TSD on shot, because shot plays at the range where that would be useful and it would combo well. (especially since you gave it 70 damage, right? i'm not making that up?) There are weapons that would benefit from a burst bomb much more though, plus I don't see any reason to get rid of the suction/zooka kit, which means TSD can go on the other kit. So vshot keeps its good kit, ttek gets a special that synergizes better with it, and the gals get to have strikes without overlapping with stuff.

	base game	riibalanced	this post
.52	wall / wail	wall / wail	wall / strikes
.52 deco	curling / screen	curling / TSD	curling / wave
.96	sprinkler / vac	sensor / zooka	sprinkler / strikes
vshot	suction / zooka	burst / TSD	suction / zooka
ttek	splat / strikes	splat / strikes	splat / TSD

 

[Terret]

I was going to say this is a balance issue and not a kit issue, but wall + an ink refill would be next to impossible to nerf without completely destroying all of the other wall kits. So you have a point there.


This is a good point as well. Strikes and wall really would go well together.

Neither .52 kit currently has a special that really suits it. And we are discussing two specials that would suit it very well. So the wall kit can get strikes, and the other kit can get wave breaker. Everyone wins.

Strikes could probably work for 52 but I will have one objection I’ll get to later.

Think about the ranges of the two specials. v96 could use its long range main weapon to play off of the range of the strikes in a way no other weapon can right now, without even needing a wall. They would be very good at moving opponents into your line of sight. Whereas with wave breaker, it wouldn't really be able to throw it far enough to stay as far back as it likes, especially without a wall.

And there inlies the issue. I want to make it clear 52 and 96 are NOT getting any of the same specials. Think of it as a Rapid and Rapid Pro situation. Will probably give to 52 because enough farther back weapons have it

For the subs, I think .96 and .52 deco can keep their current ones (from base splatoon). As much as I dislike sprinkler as a sub, .96 is probably one of the few weapons that actually synergizes with it, so it should be fine if we ever figure out how to fix sprinkler. Paint is a serious weakness of this weapon, so sprinkler would mean your teammates don't have to compensate for your lack of paint quite as much. And .52 with curling and wave would be such a cool and unique playstyle. The vanilla kit is slowed down by its wall and heavy ink consumption (especially without wail), but with a 45% cost curling and an ink refill, .52 deco could be very mobile and in-your-face. This mobility and aggression would also let it play off of the waves really well, since it wouldn't have any problem rushing an opponent who jumped over one or got hit by one.

I like your idea for a 52 deco kit. I was hesitant on it initially due to this being the third curling wave but I’ll just give Ntri fizzy back.

I'm just now realizing the .96 kit was changed already so I'll go over that too. I don't think zooka really makes sense for it because it doesn't need that much help against long ranged weapons; it is the long ranged weapon. And I don't see any point for sensor on it outside of helping to hit your zooka shots. It doesn't really add much to the weapon; location isn't a huge weakness for it, but paint definitely is.

Let me stop you right there. Sprinkler is a sub that is typically good when paint is a STRENGTH of a weapon and mobility is somewhat of a weakness to slightly consider. Hence why weapons like heavy, dynamo and Pencil really like it and why other weapons like tetras and S’Blast absolutely hate it. I’ll also say, if 96 can still get a decent number of krakens, at 210p WITH A WALL, then its paint is anything BUT a weakness (plus, I buffed its paint at its feet so paint is a nonissue). Sprinkler DOES work on it but honestly, I don’t like it for 96 that much. Again, not terrible, but I feel like a kit allowing utility in other ways and have a game changer of a special would make it interesting. It would be a more laid back playstyle in comparison to 96 Deco’s far more selfish playstyle.

The only other thing to figure out to go with this change would be what special to give ttek, since there shouldn't really be three shooters with strikes. Inkjet would synergize with it, but neo sploosh has splat bomb inkjet, and also it already had that in S2. Booyah bomb or reefslider could work for it, but I think the best choice here is triple splashdown. (especially with .52 deco having wave.) I know you already gave vshot TSD, but I think that's unnecessary since the current kit works on it really well; the problem is just that zooka is very overtuned. I do like the idea of TSD on shot, because shot plays at the range where that would be useful and it would combo well. (especially since you gave it 70 damage, right? i'm not making that up?) There are weapons that would benefit from a burst bomb much more though, plus I don't see any reason to get rid of the suction/zooka kit. So vshot keeps its good kit, ttek gets a special that synergizes better with it, and the gals get to have strikes without overlapping with stuff.

	base game	riibalanced	this post
.52	wall / wail	wall / wail	wall / strikes
.52 deco	curling / screen	curling / TSD	curling / wave
.96	sprinkler / vac	sensor / zooka	sprinkler / strikes
vshot	suction / zooka	burst / TSD	suction / zooka
ttek	splat / strikes	splat / strikes	splat / TSD

And then shot. I’ll say it right now, I have no plans to give vshot its old kit back. Not yet anyway. Without a way to address startup a significant degree without the special feeling terrible, I’m keeping the number of zooka weapons low until I can confirm it won’t be a problem. As for Ttek, kinda stuck in limbo. Maybe I’ll give it Jet and then give Neo Sploosh chumps instead but that part is kind of a toughy.

 

[OnePotWonder]

I was going to say this is a balance issue and not a kit issue, but wall + an ink refill would be next to impossible to nerf without completely destroying all of the other wall kits. So you have a point there.


This is a good point as well. Strikes and wall really would go well together.

Neither .52 kit currently has a special that really suits it. And we are discussing two specials that would suit it very well. So the wall kit can get strikes, and the other kit can get wave breaker. Everyone wins.


Think about the ranges of the two specials. v96 could use its long range main weapon to play off of the range of the strikes in a way no other weapon can right now, without even needing a wall. They would be very good at moving opponents into your line of sight. Whereas with wave breaker, it wouldn't really be able to throw it far enough to stay as far back as it likes, especially without a wall.


For the subs, I think .96 and .52 deco can keep their current ones (from base splatoon). As much as I dislike sprinkler as a sub, .96 is probably one of the few weapons that actually synergizes with it, so it should be fine if we ever figure out how to fix sprinkler. Paint is a serious weakness of this weapon, so sprinkler would mean your teammates don't have to compensate for your lack of paint quite as much. And .52 with curling and wave would be such a cool and unique playstyle. The vanilla kit is slowed down by its wall and heavy ink consumption (especially without wail), but with a 45% cost curling and an ink refill, .52 deco could be very mobile and in-your-face. This mobility and aggression would also let it play off of the waves really well, since it wouldn't have any problem rushing an opponent who jumped over one or got hit by one.

I'm just now realizing the .96 kit was changed already so I'll go over that too. I don't think zooka really makes sense for it because it doesn't need that much help against long ranged weapons; it is the long ranged weapon. And I don't see any point for sensor on it outside of helping to hit your zooka shots. It doesn't really add much to the weapon; location isn't a huge weakness for it, but paint definitely is.

The only other thing to figure out to go with this change would be what special to give ttek, since there shouldn't really be three shooters with strikes. Inkjet would synergize with it, but neo sploosh has splat bomb inkjet, and also it already had that in S2. Booyah bomb or reefslider could work for it, but I think the best choice here is triple splashdown. (especially with .52 deco having wave.) I know you already gave vshot TSD, but I think that's unnecessary since the current kit works on it really well; the problem is just that zooka is very overtuned. I do like the idea of TSD on shot, because shot plays at the range where that would be useful and it would combo well. (especially since you gave it 70 damage, right? i'm not making that up?) There are weapons that would benefit from a burst bomb much more though, plus I don't see any reason to get rid of the suction/zooka kit, which means TSD can go on the other kit. So vshot keeps its good kit, ttek gets a special that synergizes better with it, and the gals get to have strikes without overlapping with stuff.

	base game	riibalanced	this post
.52	wall / wail	wall / wail	wall / strikes
.52 deco	curling / screen	curling / TSD	curling / wave
.96	sprinkler / vac	sensor / zooka	sprinkler / strikes
vshot	suction / zooka	burst / TSD	suction / zooka
ttek	splat / strikes	splat / strikes	splat / TSD

I mostly agree with this. I feel though that a different special would be better on .96 to make it more distinct...
And Terret posted a response. I should probably see what they have to say before I go on.

 

[youre_a_squib_now]

And therein lies the issue. I want to make it clear 52 and 96 are NOT getting any of the same specials. Think of it as a Rapid and Rapid Pro situation.

They're much more different than rapid and rapid pro, but they are still similar, so I see your point.

Will probably give to 52 because enough farther back weapons have it

I do think it has more synergy with .52 than with .96, but no, not enough further back weapons have it. Outside of zf charger, the longest range strikes weapon is rapid blaster.
Silly me again, forgetting you changed all the kits. I like strikes on cjet for the same reason I liked them on .96. Probably more so, actually. Mist is a bit confusing but that's not really relevant here.
So .52 and cjet will have strikes. cool.

I like your idea for a 52 deco kit. I was hesitant on it initially due to this being the third curling wave but I’ll just give Ntri fizzy back.

It was kind of an accident tbh, I was like "well i can just put wave on the other kit" and then "i wonder if the sub it already has would work" and then i realized it was perfect.
Yes, please give tri its fizzy back. And its cooler, probably, but I'll save that for when I'm thinking about tri. Definitely keep fizzy though.

Let me stop you right there. Sprinkler is a sub that is typically good when paint is a STRENGTH of a weapon and mobility is somewhat of a weakness to slightly consider. Hence why weapons like heavy, dynamo and Pencil really like it and why other weapons like tetras and S’Blast absolutely hate it.

Heavy, dynamo, and pencil like it because they don't like using their sub weapon as much in between using the main weapon. So thy can deploy the sprinkler and let it do its thing as the main weapon does its own thing. Inkline bow likes it for the same reason, and it doesn't have nearly as good paint. Tetras, s-blast, and brella, on the other hand, need to use their sub for combat a lot more, and sprinkler does absolutely nothing to help with that. That's the problem.

Sprinkler DOES work on it but honestly, I don’t like it for 96 that much. Again, not terrible, but I feel like a kit allowing utility in other ways and have a game changer of a special would make it interesting.

I could say this (or worse) about literally every sprinkler weapon in the game. I do have an idea for giving sprinkler some extra actual utility though.

I’ll also say, if 96 can still get a decent number of krakens, at 210p WITH A WALL, then its paint is anything BUT a weakness (plus, I buffed its paint at its feet so paint is a nonissue). Sprinkler DOES work on it but honestly, I don’t like it for 96 that much. Again, not terrible, but I feel like a kit allowing utility in other ways and have a game changer of a special would make it interesting. It would be a more laid back playstyle in comparison to 96 Deco’s far more selfish playstyle.

What about something like sprinkler and cooler? That would be a more laid back playstyle. You'd have to change snipewriter but that should probably be changed anyway.
I don't really have any strong opinions at this point about what v96 gets, but I'm suggesting sprinkler because this is going to be one of the only times that I'll be able to suggest sprinkler and actually mean it.

 

[youre_a_squib_now]

And then shot. I’ll say it right now, I have no plans to give vshot its old kit back. Not yet anyway. Without a way to address startup a significant degree without the special feeling terrible, I’m keeping the number of zooka weapons low until I can confirm it won’t be a problem. As for Ttek, kinda stuck in limbo. Maybe I’ll give it Jet and then give Neo Sploosh chumps instead but that part is kind of a toughy.

This is the wrong way to go about this. Something being strong doesn't mean you should remove it until you figure out how to fix it, for a couple reasons. 1, how will you know how to fix it if it's not even in the game? 2, you have other ways of balancing the special, even temporarily. You can even give it 230p for now if you have to. and 3 (the biggest one), as this whole conversation shows, every kit that is changed impacts other kits. Changing a kit because of a balance issue that will likely be fixed later just means that when it is fixed, either we'll have to go through the whole process again and re-figure out all the kits, or more likely, it'll just be stuck with a kit that only existed to deal with a balance issue that is no longer present. This means that the other weapons that were changed will also be stuck with kits they don't want. Kits should be created assuming perfect balance; that way, as we get closer and closer to perfect balance, we don't have to keep changing the kits, and every weapon can get a kit it likes from the start.

Some really good evidence that this isn't a good way to balance the game is ttek and neo sploosh, right now. With vshot having the regular kit, a good kit for ttek and neo sploosh is right there, but because the kit is being changed for balance purposes, there is a chain reaction that results in those weapons not getting the kits they would like, and we start running into problems. And also, if anything else changes with balance down the line, related to zooka or otherwise, we'd have to change the kits again, resulting in them potentially getting even less favorable kits, all in the name of balance. The only time when balance needs to be involved is if some insane synergy makes the kit much stronger than the individual pieces, like slosher with burst bomb or .52 + wall + instant ink tank refill. Otherwise, leave balance out of kit design and just fix the parts.

And please don't take away inkjet from sploosh. That weapon deserves a good kit for once.

 

[youre_a_squib_now]

If we can get to 100 followers, I’ll ensure Pencil is nerfed heavily

It needs nerfs, but please be careful not to overdo it.

and vshot is effectively removed from the game

What happened to reworking things to make them healthier?

I'm sure 210p (if you carry that over) plus whatever zooka nerf/rework you have planned will make vshot not an issue. Because shot isn't really the problem; zooka is.

(also 52 nerfs) :)

With the .52 kits I suggested (that you seem to agree with) I don't think it will need any more nerfs than the 1 frame nerf you already gave it. The thing that makes it too strong rn is that it can stall for much longer than it should reasonably be able to by using wail as an instant ink refill to effectively have 2 walls. (Not quite as bad as kgal, but a similar issue.) That being gone should make it feel much more fair to fight, all by itself.

 

[OnePotWonder]

I'm sure 210p (if you carry that over) plus whatever zooka nerf/rework you have planned will make vshot not an issue. Because shot isn't really the problem; zooka is.

I would like to disagree with this point. Splattershot as a main weapon is definitely overtuned right now. It doesn't really need more than one nerf to be in a good spot; a bit less paint, a bit worse ink consumption, or a bit worse startup/endlag... but it's too strong right now, especially for how easy it is to use compared to similarly powerful options like the Slosher.

I think it's fair to try and aim for harder-to-use weapons being stronger than easy ones. I'd rather see the L-3 Nozzlenose in the spot that vShot is in right now.

 

[youre_a_squib_now]

I have a pretty long kits post coming up going over my initial (yes, initial) thoughts on every kit, but I have some projects rn so it might be a while

so I didn't, like, die or anything

so apparently you can directly copy and paste tables between squidboards and google docs with pretty much no formatting issues

this is going to make my job a lot easier

 

[youre_a_squib_now]

I've been thinking about if it would be better to let s-blast '92 keep its original kit. Fizzy is nice on it, and it definitely likes the poking potential, but with the sprinkler rework I think sprinkler would have a lot of synergy with it. Painting aggressively is one of the things that s-blast struggles with the most, and sprinkler would give it that. So it could throw a sprinkler forward and make it harder for the opponent to move, and once the opponent is dead, there's already paint there to work with so it can keep taking fights. So it would make s-blast have much less downtime, especially if sprinkler's ink consumption isn't nerfed too heavily.

Fizzy combos well with it, but it doesn't paint as much and once it's done exploding, it's gone. The main argument for fizzy is the combos, and burst bomb already does that, so I think it would be better to give it a more different sub, even if it is slightly weaker. And even if fizzy would be better on it, I think sprinkler has better and more unique synergy. (Plus, if we do the rework right, that synergy will make sprinkler actually a stronger sub on it than fizzy)

 

[OnePotWonder]

but with the sprinkler rework I think sprinkler would have a lot of synergy with it.

What was the Sprinkler rework again? I can't seem to find it.

 

[youre_a_squib_now]

I've been thinking about how to fix sprinkler, and I think I found it. As usual, I'll start with the problem this tries to fix and go from there.


Sprinkler would work best as (and seems to be designed to be) a tool to hold down an area for a long period of time. But it can't do this, because of what I said in the quote. So let's make it not be instantly shot down. It should be around as hard to shoot down as wave breaker, so 600 HP sounds reasonable. (Wave has 400; the extra is to compensate for the damage multipliers.) This would let it actually hold down an area with continued paint, because it takes more effort to shoot down. However, this causes a few other problems, so here's how I'd address those. First, the "sprinkler spots" I mentioned would be way more annoying than before, and they were already annoying. So its throwing range will be decreased by 15%. It was already pretty long, so this will also help against throwing the sprinkler way into an area you don't control as well. Also, this patch note from splatoon 2 (3.0.0) suggests that there are parameters for how much the sprinkler can paint from high up. So this buff should be at least partially reverted, so that the sprinkler spots that still exist aren't quite so annoying, especially because of the extra health.
View attachment 11118
The other problem is that sprinkler is now a shield with almost as much health as a literal splash wall. However, I don't think this is actually that much of a problem. It has a much smaller hitbox than wall, so you can still be shot over the top of it, and it's much harder to hide behind. Plus, it doesn't protect you from bombs, so they would force you to move out from behind it. But it could still potentially be too strong, so the ink consumption should be nerfed to 70% to prevent this from being abused. This would also nerf it being used for special spam, while being a fair compensation for the aggressive potential that it has now.

• 120hp -> 600hp
• 15% less throw range
• Less paint from high up
• 60% -> 70% ink consumption

These changes would give it a lot of actual combat utility. (Not something I thought I'd ever be saying about sprinkler.) It could actually help secure an area like Sheldon keeps saying. I certainly don't think it would be as good as bombs, and it definitely needs more buffs, but it's hard to know what buffs without testing this version of it.

here
it gets 600 hp, and some nerfs so that sprinkler spots aren't completely broken

we might also end up changing the paint but we haven't figured that out yet

 

[OnePotWonder]

here
it gets 600 hp, and some nerfs so that sprinkler spots aren't completely broken

we might also end up changing the paint but we haven't figured that out yet

This is interesting. Might make sense for the HP to decay over time, that way you don’t have to nerf paint-focused Sprinklers as hard.
Maybe cut its remaining HP in half when reaching the middle power phase, then have it take 200 damage when reaching low power. When it’s placed down it’s a super shield, but as time passes is becomes easier to get rid of, automatically breaking if it’s sustained enough damage. Fits with the sub’s identity, and would let it keep its throw range. We could also give it 30 damage.

 

[Terret]

It needs nerfs, but please be careful not to overdo it.


What happened to reworking things to make them healthier?

I'm sure 210p (if you carry that over) plus whatever zooka nerf/rework you have planned will make vshot not an issue. Because shot isn't really the problem; zooka is.


With the .52 kits I suggested (that you seem to agree with) I don't think it will need any more nerfs than the 1 frame nerf you already gave it. The thing that makes it too strong rn is that it can stall for much longer than it should reasonably be able to by using wail as an instant ink refill to effectively have 2 walls. (Not quite as bad as kgal, but a similar issue.) That being gone should make it feel much more fair to fight, all by itself.

I was admittedly half joking about it. Blue Pencil was already nerfed a lot beforehand with the first change so dw about that, Pencil should be okay as it is in Riibalanced. Shot however, I’m a little more on limbo with. Like really don’t know what to do with it. Giving it missiles instead of zooka ended up coming to mind, funnily enough. Distribution sort of came to mind when I made that decision, and I felt like Dapples had better synergy with zooka compared to shot

 

[Terret]

This is interesting. Might make sense for the HP to decay over time, that way you don’t have to nerf paint-focused Sprinklers as hard.
Maybe cut its remaining HP in half when reaching the middle power phase, then have it take 200 damage when reaching low power. When it’s placed down it’s a super shield, but as time passes is becomes easier to get rid of, automatically breaking if it’s sustained enough damage. Fits with the sub’s identity, and would let it keep its throw range. We could also give it 30 damage.

That would be cool but at the moment, I don’t know how to do that. I don’t think it will make a major difference though because once it hits its third firing mode, it’s practically useless. Because of the inability for the hp to decay though, 600 hp might be too much. Maybe 400 would be a good way to even it?