Screwing with kits as well

[Terret]

I'd help with this / give suggestions but you keep so much hidden :(
I can only see the 24 kits you posted until I figure out how to mod my switch

Fair point. I apologize for that. Here’s almost all the kits I adjusted

Fair. I need a second to get all the images though. Here’s what I got

I want to send a video file but it won’t let me for some reason

 

[Terret]

I'd help with this / give suggestions but you keep so much hidden :(
I can only see the 24 kits you posted until I figure out how to mod my switch

Current kits with some things outdated (like Blaster getting zooka and Clash getting bubble and Order brush not having jet):

 

[youre_a_squib_now]

Every weapon, organized by ID:

Spoiler: this table might be kinda big

	sub	special	new sub	new special
sploosh	curling	stamp	curling	stamp
neo sploosh	beakon	wail	splat	jet
vjr	splat	bubble	splat	bubble
cjr	torp	wave	torp	storm
splash	burst	crab	burst	crab
neo splash	suction	strikes	mist	zip
silver aero	fizzy	slider	fizzy	slider
gold aero	sprinkler	booyah	sprinkler	booyah
shot	suction	zooka	burst	TSD
ttek	splat	strikes	splat	strikes
.52	wall	wail	wall	wail
.52 deco	curling	screen	curling	TSD
zap '85	suction	cooler	sprinkler	kraken
zap '89	chicken	chumps	chicken	chumps
pro	dart	crab	dart	crab
forge	suction	booyah	suction	booyah
.96	sprinkler	vac	sensor	zooka
.96 deco	wall	kraken	wall	kraken
vjet	dart	vac	burst	kraken
cjet	mist	storm	mist	strikes
nova	sensor	wail	burst	vac
annaki	mine	jet	mist	screen
luna	splat	zip	splat	zip
luna neo	fizzy	stamp	fizzy	stamp
blaster	chicken	bubble	chicken	zooka
custom blaster	sensor	TSD	sensor	TSD
range	suction	wave	suction	zip
clash	splat	zooka	splat	bubble
clash neo	curling	chumps	sensor	screen
rapid	mine	strikes	mist	vac
rapid deco	torp	jet	torp	jet
rapid pro	mist	vac	mine	chumps
rapid pro deco	dart	wail	dart	wail
s-blast '92	sprinkler	slider	fizzy	slider
s-blast '91	burst	booyah	burst	booyah
l-3	curling	crab	curling	rain
l-3 d	burst	stamp	burst	stamp
h-3	sensor	cooler	sensor	cooler
h-3 d	wall	bubble	wall	bubble
squeezer	wall	zooka	mine	chumps
foil squeezer	chicken	screen	chicken	screen
carbon	chicken	zip	torp	zip
carbon deco	burst	zooka	burst	zooka
roller	curling	bubble	curling	bubble
krak-on	beakon	kraken	torp	chumps
dynamo	sprinkler	cooler	sprinkler	cooler
gold dynamo	splat	chumps	splat	booyah
flingza	mine	missiles	mine	crab
foil flingza	suction	screen	suction	screen
swig	wall	vac	dart	slider
swig express	dart	storm	torp	storm
inkbrush	splat	wail	splat	wail
inkbrush nouveau	mine	stamp	mine	stamp
octobrush	suction	zip	suction	jet
octobrush nouveau	beakon	storm	beakon	kraken
painbrush	curling	wave	curling	wave
painbrush nouveau	sensor	missiles	sensor	missiles
squiffer	sensor	bubble	suction	wave
new squiffer	chicken	zip	chicken	zip
charger	splat	vac	splat	vac
z+f charger	wall	strikes	wall	strikes
liter	mine	wave	mine	booyah
c-liter	beakon	kraken	beakon	zooka
bamboo	chicken	wail	chicken	wail
goober	torp	missiles	torp	missiles
cgoo	fizzy	stamp	fizzy	jet
pencil	sprinkler	cooler	sprinkler	cooler
red pencil	wall	storm	torp	kraken
slosher	splat	strikes	suction	strikes
slosher deco	dart	zip	burst	TSD
tri	mist	jet	burst	chumps
tri nouveau	fizzy	cooler	fizzy	wave
machine	fizzy	booyah	fizzy	booyah
machine neo	sensor	zooka	chicken	wail
blob	sprinkler	storm	wall	screen
blob deco	dart	kraken	dart	vac
explo	sensor	storm	mist	missiles
custom explo	wall	TSD	wall	crab
dread	suction	slider	torp	slider
dread d	beakon	wave	suction	cooler
mini	burst	stamp	burst	stamp
zimi	mist	bubble	mist	cooler
heavy	sprinkler	wave	sprinkler	wave
heavy deco	sensor	kraken	sensor	kraken
hydra	chicken	booyah	mine	bubble
ballpoint	fizzy	jet	fizzy	jet
ballpoint nouveau	mine	vac	beakon	storm
naut	sensor	storm	sensor	storm
gold naut	suction	TSD	suction	crab
edit	curling	cooler	curling	missiles
dapples	beakon	cooler	suction	missiles
ndapples	torp	slider	torp	slider
dualies	suction	crab	suction	crab
enperries	curling	TSD	curling	jet
gloogas	wall	booyah	wall	booyah
gloogas deco	sensor	zooka	fizzy	stamp
squelchers	splat	wave	splat	wave
custom squelchers	beakon	chumps	beakon	chumps
tetras	chicken	slider	chicken	TSD
light tetras	sprinkler	zip	dart	zip
dousers	mine	wail	mine	wail
brella	sprinkler	strikes	sprinkler	storm
sorella brella	chicken	jet	chicken	jet
tent	beakon	vac	beakon	vac
sorella tent	mine	zooka	mine	zooka
undercover	mine	slider	splat	crab
sunder	torp	screen	torp	cooler
cycle	dart	bubble	dart	bubble
bow	mist	wail	mist	wail
inkline bow	sprinkler	chumps	fizzy	strikes
flux	curling	missiles	curling	missiles
flux deco	wall	slider	torp	zip
stamper	burst	zip	burst	zip
stamper nouveau	mist	crab	fizzy	storm
wiper	torp	stamp	torp	stamp
wiper deco	beakon	missiles	beakon	missiles

(updated to include the missing ones)

 

[youre_a_squib_now]

I think I figured it out. Or at least, I figured out how we can figure it out.
We can make a table of how well each sub would synergize with each main, and make another table for how well each special would synergize with each main. Then it would be clear what subs would be best for each main, and what mains would be best for each sub. Obviously these aren't the only important factors (we're creating entire kits, not just subs and specials, plus balance, plus favoring current kits, etc) but I think it would be very helpful.

Once I figure out how to run the mod on my switch that's probably what I'll work on

 

[Terret]

I think I figured it out. Or at least, I figured out how we can figure it out.
We can make a table of how well each sub would synergize with each main, and make another table for how well each special would synergize with each main. Then it would be clear what subs would be best for each main, and what mains would be best for each sub. Obviously these aren't the only important factors (we're creating entire kits, not just subs and specials, plus balance, plus favoring current kits, etc) but I think it would be very helpful.

Once I figure out how to run the mod on my switch that's probably what I'll work on

Sounds good. I initially gave naut crab but I’m starting to lean towards giving naut jet and BP crab instead. And there are a lot of other changes I’m starting to consider as well for kits

 

[youre_a_squib_now]

Every weapon, organized by ID:

Spoiler: this table might be kinda big

	sub	special	new sub	new special
sploosh	curling	stamp	curling	stamp
neo sploosh	beakon	wail	splat	jet
vjr	splat	bubble	splat	bubble
cjr	torp	wave	torp	storm
splash	burst	crab	burst	crab
neo splash	suction	strikes	mist	zip
silver aero	fizzy	slider	fizzy	slider
gold aero	sprinkler	booyah	???	???
shot	suction	zooka	burst	TSD
ttek	splat	strikes	splat	strikes
.52	wall	wail	wall	wail
.52 deco	curling	screen	???	???
zap '85	suction	cooler	sprinkler	kraken
zap '89	chicken	chumps	chicken	chumps
pro	dart	crab	dart	crab
forge	suction	booyah	suction	booyah
.96	sprinkler	vac	sensor	zooka
.96 deco	wall	kraken	wall	kraken
vjet	dart	vac	burst	kraken
cjet	mist	storm	mist	strikes
nova	sensor	wail	burst	vac
annaki	mine	jet	mist	screen
luna	splat	zip	splat	zip
luna neo	fizzy	stamp	fizzy	stamp
blaster	chicken	bubble	chicken	zooka
custom blaster	sensor	TSD	???	???
range	suction	wave	suction	zip
clash	splat	zooka	splat	bubble
clash neo	curling	chumps	???	???
rapid	mine	strikes	mist	vac
rapid deco	torp	jet	torp	jet
rapid pro	mist	vac	mine	chumps
rapid pro deco	dart	wail	dart	wail
s-blast '92	sprinkler	slider	fizzy	slider
s-blast '91	burst	booyah	burst	booyah
l-3	curling	crab	???	???
l-3 d	burst	stamp	burst	stamp
h-3	sensor	cooler	sensor	cooler
h-3 d	wall	bubble	wall	bubble
squeezer	wall	zooka	???	???
foil squeezer	chicken	screen	chicken	screen
carbon	chicken	zip	torp	zip
carbon deco	burst	zooka	burst	zooka
roller	curling	bubble	curling	bubble
krak-on	beakon	kraken	torp	chumps
dynamo	sprinkler	cooler	sprinkler	cooler
gold dynamo	splat	chumps	splat	booyah
flingza	mine	missiles	mine	crab
foil flingza	suction	screen	???	???
swig	wall	vac	dart	slider
swig express	dart	storm	torp	storm
inkbrush	splat	wail	splat	wail
inkbrush nouveau	mine	stamp	mine	stamp
octobrush	suction	zip	suction	jet
octobrush nouveau	beakon	storm	beakon	kraken
painbrush	curling	wave	curling	wave
painbrush nouveau	sensor	missiles	???	???
squiffer	sensor	bubble	suction	wave
new squiffer	chicken	zip	chicken	zip
charger	splat	vac	splat	vac
z+f charger	wall	strikes	wall	strikes
liter	mine	wave	mine	booyah
c-liter	beakon	kraken	beakon	zooka
bamboo	chicken	wail	chicken	wail
goober	torp	missiles	torp	missiles
cgoo	fizzy	stamp	???	???
pencil	sprinkler	cooler	sprinkler	cooler
red pencil	wall	storm	torp	kraken
slosher	splat	strikes	suction	strikes
slosher deco	dart	zip	burst	TSD
tri	mist	jet	burst	chumps
tri nouveau	fizzy	cooler	fizzy	wave
machine	fizzy	booyah	fizzy	booyah
machine neo	sensor	zooka	???	???
blob	sprinkler	storm	wall	screen
blob deco	dart	kraken	dart	vac
explo	sensor	storm	mist	missiles
custom explo	wall	TSD	wall	crab
dread	suction	slider	torp	slider
dread d	beakon	wave	suction	cooler
mini	burst	stamp	burst	stamp
zimi	mist	bubble	mist	cooler
heavy	sprinkler	wave	sprinkler	wave
heavy deco	sensor	kraken	sensor	kraken
hydra	chicken	booyah	mine	bubble
ballpoint	fizzy	jet	fizzy	jet
ballpoint nouveau	mine	vac	beakon	storm
naut	sensor	storm	sensor	storm
gold naut	suction	TSD	suction	crab
edit	curling	cooler	curling	missiles
dapples	beakon	cooler	suction	missiles
ndapples	torp	slider	torp	slider
dualies	suction	crab	suction	crab
enperries	curling	TSD	curling	jet
gloogas	wall	booyah	wall	booyah
gloogas deco	sensor	zooka	???	???
squelchers	splat	wave	splat	wave
custom squelchers	beakon	chumps	beakon	chumps
tetras	chicken	slider	chicken	TSD
light tetras	sprinkler	zip	dart	zip
dousers	mine	wail	mine	wail
brella	sprinkler	strikes	sprinkler	storm
sorella brella	chicken	jet	chicken	jet
tent	beakon	vac	beakon	vac
sorella tent	mine	zooka	mine	zooka
undercover	mine	slider	splat	crab
sunder	torp	screen	torp	cooler
cycle	dart	bubble	dart	bubble
bow	mist	wail	mist	wail
inkline bow	sprinkler	chumps	fizzy	strikes
flux	curling	missiles	curling	missiles
flux deco	wall	slider	torp	zip
stamper	burst	zip	burst	zip
stamper nouveau	mist	crab	fizzy	storm
wiper	torp	stamp	torp	stamp
wiper deco	beakon	missiles	???	???

Can you clarify the kits for the weapons that didn't show up in the video?
this would be gold aerospray, .52 deco, custom blaster, clash neo, l-3, squeezer, foil flingza, painbrush 2, custom goober, machine neo, gloogas deco, and wiper deco
Typing this out made me realize there's more than I thought.
Anyway, I (finally) got a rcm jig that works consistently, so I'll be able to start analyzing kits soon.

 

[youre_a_squib_now]

torp L-3 D would be insanely cool with the damage buff
Then H-3 can get burst cooler

 

[Terret]

torp L-3 D would be insanely cool with the damage buff
Then H-3 can get burst cooler

I see the vision, but I really don’t think H-3 needs burst and I have next to no sensor weapons

 

[isaac4]

You might have already explained this in the thread before but what's the reason for giving Suction Bomb to vSlosher? I don't think it's a bad choice since I rather have Splat Bomb for a 3rd kit with a different special but I would have thought that you just replace the special instead so it's not dealing with being the weaker Tri-Strike option with Ttek in the game.

 

[Terret]

You might have already explained this in the thread before but what's the reason for giving Suction Bomb to vSlosher? I don't think it's a bad choice since I rather have Splat Bomb for a 3rd kit with a different special but I would have thought that you just replace the special instead so it's not dealing with being the weaker Tri-Strike option with Ttek in the game.

Funnily enough, slosher is REALLY strong right now, to the point of beating out most other AOE options and midlines. I gave Suction to slow down its pacing a little bit while still giving it the utility of a bomb

 

[isaac4]

Funnily enough, slosher is REALLY strong right now, to the point of beating out most other AOE options and midlines. I gave Suction to slow down its pacing a little bit while still giving it the utility of a bomb

I get that but isn't that mainly because it can keep up with cooler meta compared to other midlines? I know it's definitely being used a lot over other options (rip Machine) but I think giving it something like Killer Wail 5.1 would keep it from being too strong while still having it focus on fighting.

 

[isaac4]

That would probably make dealing with Slosher more annoying now that I'm thinking about it lol, but strikes is definitely the better special out of the two.

 

[OnePotWonder]

I would argue vSlosher’s kit is perfect; a high synergy bomb and a decent special that only works fine on it.
I agree that if you’re going to give it Suction Bomb, it should get a slightly better special synergy-wise like Ink Storm.

 

[isaac4]

I would argue vSlosher’s kit is perfect; a high synergy bomb and a decent special that only works fine on it.
I agree that if you’re going to give it Suction Bomb, it should get a slightly better special synergy-wise like Ink Storm.

Splat2 vSlosher kit could return but I doubt the idea of having Missiles on it again would be something people want.
I just think Ttek having the same kit with less pfs makes Sloshers kit feel very boring and then they repeated the same thing with Neo Splash (why didn't they give it Zip).

 

[Terret]

Can you clarify the kits for the weapons that didn't show up in the video?
this would be gold aerospray, .52 deco, custom blaster, clash neo, l-3, squeezer, foil flingza, painbrush 2, custom goober, machine neo, gloogas deco, and wiper deco
Typing this out made me realize there's more than I thought.
Anyway, I (finally) got a rcm jig that works consistently, so I'll be able to start analyzing kits soon.

Gold Aerospray is the same, .52 deco has TSD, Cblast is the same, Clash Neo is sensor screen, foil Flingza is the same, L-3 has curling rain if I’m not mistaken, custom goo has fizzy jet, Neo machine has auto wail, pain nouveau is the same, gleco has fizzy stamp, Diper is the same

 

[youre_a_squib_now]

I know I made the riimoved joke, but I've been thinking about this for a while and it makes a lot of sense to me.

I think sprinkler and tents missiles should be on 0 kits.

Tenta missiles I probably don't need to explain too much. It's as close to objectively bad design as we have in this game, and it shouldn't be good. And the game is better off if the special is bad, there really is no reason for it to exist in the first place.

But if you look into the reasons why missiles are disliked (aside from it being broken) a lot of them also apply to sprinkler. Especially how they both encourage passive gameplay and special spam. Also, sprinkler doesn't really do anything except paint, and it can't paint in relevant areas because it can be shot down. As a result of this lack of utility, no weapon really wants to have it. And if no weapons want the sub, why should we put it on them?

For both missiles and sprinkler, the flaws with them are fundamental aspects of the sub/special that can't really be changed with reworks. Putting sprinklers in relevant locations will never work unless it can't be destroyed, and that would make it broken, so it can't really do anything except farm special. Missiles can be changed to be less bad, but the entire premise of the special is just... not great. Removing these would also help with being able to put the other subs and specials on more things.

 

[youre_a_squib_now]

Gold Aerospray is the same, .52 deco has TSD, Cblast is the same, Clash Neo is sensor screen, foil Flingza is the same, L-3 has curling rain if I’m not mistaken, custom goo has fizzy jet, Neo machine has auto wail, pain nouveau is the same, gleco has fizzy stamp, Diper is the same

and squeezer, i missed that one

 

[Terret]

I know I made the riimoved joke, but I've been thinking about this for a while and it makes a lot of sense to me.

I think sprinkler and tents missiles should be on 0 kits.

Tenta missiles I probably don't need to explain too much. It's as close to objectively bad design as we have in this game, and it shouldn't be good. And the game is better off if the special is bad, there really is no reason for it to exist in the first place.

But if you look into the reasons why missiles are disliked (aside from it being broken) a lot of them also apply to sprinkler. Especially how they both encourage passive gameplay and special spam. Also, sprinkler doesn't really do anything except paint, and it can't paint in relevant areas because it can be shot down. As a result of this lack of utility, no weapon really wants to have it. And if no weapons want the sub, why should we put it on them?

For both missiles and sprinkler, the flaws with them are fundamental aspects of the sub/special that can't really be changed with reworks. Putting sprinklers in relevant locations will never work unless it can't be destroyed, and that would make it broken, so it can't really do anything except farm special. Missiles can be changed to be less bad, but the entire premise of the special is just... not great. Removing these would also help with being able to put the other subs and specials on more things.

About both of them, fair point. I guess I’ll start with talking about Sprinkler since that’s easier to explain. Sprinkler DOES have a job it can fill, and sprinkler fundamentally is not a terrible idea. If it couldn’t stick anywhere and didn’t have weapons it works better with than bombs, I’d understand. It can be argued it partially caused Pencil to be a problem which while that isn’t wrong, also is a strong sub for heavy due to good points it can be thrown at, and if bow was a better main weapon, I don’t think it’d mind it either. As for relevant spots, while it seems like there are none, there are a good amount of spots where you can get a LOT of passive paint and while they can be shot down, they can be HARD to reach. In short, there are weapons that do like it and the cheaper cost would save it from being hard outclassed if fizzy costs 65. I do plan to buff it though since it was balanced fine before decay was introduced. Probably going to try to reverse the order of the firing modes if I ever figure that out.

As for missiles, I have a hot take, that being that wail is more problematic and more infuriating. I can promise you missiles are not going to break the game due to the spam ability and radius nerfs. And while they’re horrible for counterplay, they are not as horrible to use as wail is, and don’t threaten positions as much. That’s exactly why I made missiles shoot less as it targets more people, to incentivize using it closer compared to how it is usually used.

 

[Terret]

and squeezer, i missed that one

Mine Super chump

 

[youre_a_squib_now]

About both of them, fair point. I guess I’ll start with talking about Sprinkler since that’s easier to explain. Sprinkler DOES have a job it can fill, and sprinkler fundamentally is not a terrible idea. If it couldn’t stick anywhere and didn’t have weapons it works better with than bombs, I’d understand. It can be argued it partially caused Pencil to be a problem which while that isn’t wrong, also is a strong sub for heavy due to good points it can be thrown at, and if bow was a better main weapon, I don’t think it’d mind it either. As for relevant spots, while it seems like there are none, there are a good amount of spots where you can get a LOT of passive paint and while they can be shot down, they can be HARD to reach. In short, there are weapons that do like it and the cheaper cost would save it from being hard outclassed if fizzy costs 65. I do plan to buff it though since it was balanced fine before decay was introduced.

Still not entirely convinced but we'll see I guess.

Probably going to try to reverse the order of the firing modes if I ever figure that out.

This sounds like it would be a pain to deal with for shorter range weapons. Maybe just swap modes 1 and 2?

As for missiles, I have a hot take, that being that wail is more problematic and more infuriating. I can promise you missiles are not going to break the game due to the spam ability and radius nerfs.

It feels like you're arguing that missiles won't be a problem because they're bad. If they need to be bad then why are they here at all?

I'm pretty sure most players never want to see a meta that includes missiles again. So let's just remove it.

And while they’re horrible for counterplay, they are not as horrible to use as wail is, and don’t threaten positions as much. That’s exactly why I made missiles shoot less as it targets more people, to incentivize using it closer compared to how it is usually used.

Wail works best when the main weapon is fighting with it, but it can be annoying to dodge as a slower weapon, especially after the damage buff. The core design is much, much better than missiles though, even if it's still flawed and global range isn't great.

I think a slight hitbox nerf would make it feel more fair to dodge, and making it do less damage at longer ranges (like a real speaker lol) would probably help against it being used like missiles to simply displace people.