Screwing with kits as well

[Terret]

It feels like you're arguing that missiles won't be a problem because they're bad. If they need to be bad then why are they here at all?

I'm pretty sure most players never want to see a meta that includes missiles again. So let's just remove it.

I’m hesitant on flat out removing things from the game. If missiles invalidated a weapon class, I’d understand and would remove it. But I genuinely do have hope for a way to rework missiles to a healthier state. They aren’t actually that bad in their current state. They last significantly shorter in terms of how much you have to move in comparison to wail though, with a cooldown nerf, which is why I genuinely think missiles are not as problematic as they seem.

Wail works best when the main weapon is fighting with it, but it can be annoying to dodge as a slower weapon, especially after the damage buff. The core design is much, much better than missiles though, even if it's still flawed and global range isn't great.

I think a slight hitbox nerf would make it feel more fair to dodge, and making it do less damage at longer ranges (like a real speaker lol) would probably help against it being used like missiles to simply displace people.

Funnily enough, that’s actually exactly how missiles work best as well. Wail does incentivize you to move forward but with wail’s length and spam ability, it hurts more weapons than you think. There are a lot of slower weapons that suffer from wail more than missiles, only exception I can think of being Hydra. Wail doesn’t force you out of a position as much, but it forces you to move unfavorably for much longer, or flat out kills you because you died at the end of the wail. I genuinely feel missiles are easier and healthier to rework and until Nintendo does something stupid, I will still stand that if I were forced to remove a special, I’d remove wail

 

[youre_a_squib_now]

I think I see your point more now, and I understand the reasoning behind your missiles nerf.
Wail and missiles function differently, but they do essentially the same thing. And they have a similar problem. So both should receive changes that help them when used aggressively and with the main weapon, but hurt them when used purely for displacement. I think your missiles change did a decent job of that, so one for wail would be good as well. I stand by the hitbox nerf and long distance damage reduction as good options for this, although they might be hard to implement.

 

[Terret]

I think I see your point more now, and I understand the reasoning behind your missiles nerf.
Wail and missiles function differently, but they do essentially the same thing. And they have a similar problem. So both should receive changes that help them when used aggressively and with the main weapon, but hurt them when used purely for displacement. I think your missiles change did a decent job of that, so one for wail would be good as well. I stand by the hitbox nerf and long distance damage reduction as good options for this, although they might be hard to implement.

Hitbox nerf does come to mind. I did also think about a speed nerf on the wails. As for the long range reduction, I love the idea, but it kinda depends on if I can implement it though

 

[youre_a_squib_now]

Hitbox nerf does come to mind. I did also think about a speed nerf on the wails. As for the long range reduction, I love the idea, but it kinda depends on if I can implement it though

A speed nerf doesn't even make sense for how it functions. The speed the wail travels is the same as the speed your character travels, just on a delay. Like those annoying ghost dudes from mario galaxy. A delay nerf could work, but it would probably be annoying for people who are trying to dodge wails that are tracking a teammate.

 

[Terret]

A speed nerf doesn't even make sense for how it functions. The speed the wail travels is the same as the speed your character travels, just on a delay. Like those annoying ghost dudes from mario galaxy. A delay nerf could work, but it would probably be annoying for people who are trying to dodge wails that are tracking a teammate.

Funnily enough, the wail speed actually has a cap on how far it can go so it being a shadow clone is not actually completely true. A delay nerf would be better though because it kind of gives time for being able to brace for avoiding or even killing the user

 

[youre_a_squib_now]

Funnily enough, the wail speed actually has a cap on how far it can go so it being a shadow clone is not actually completely true. A delay nerf would be better though because it kind of gives time for being able to brace for avoiding or even killing the user

Interesting. Is it a max velocity or max angular velocity? If it's the second, which it probably is, then a speed nerf wouldn't really make a difference for the problem we're worried about (wail at long range) since at far distances, it doesn't have to travel very fast to track the player (like stingray)

 

[Terret]

Interesting. Is it a max velocity or max angular velocity? If it's the second, which it probably is, then a speed nerf wouldn't really make a difference for the problem we're worried about (wail at long range) since at far distances, it doesn't have to travel very fast to track the player (like stingray)

From what it looks like, it seems to be max velocity but I could be wrong due to testing it at too extreme a setting

 

[youre_a_squib_now]

From what it looks like, it seems to be max velocity but I could be wrong due to testing it at too extreme a setting

A really easy way to test it would be to have the wail user pop wail, target you, and then you immediately swim straight past them and end up behind them. If it turns around quickly it's max velocity, if it takes a while then it's max angular velocity

 

[youre_a_squib_now]

I'd offer to help test it but I really should sleep now

 

[OnePotWonder]

Killer Wail 5.1 is fine in its current state. I really hate seeing the special compared to Tenta Missiles, because it's just so much better from a design standpoint that the argument just feels like "global range bad nyeh." Wails are much weaker when spammed from a distance, they don't ink turf, and they don't randomly one-shot you because the devs didn't randomly give them a lethal hitbox, unlike Missiles.

If someone genuinely thinks Wails are a worse design than Tenta Missiles, they're delusional. You cannot get worse than Missiles.

 

[youre_a_squib_now]

Killer Wail 5.1 is fine in its current state. I really hate seeing the special compared to Tenta Missiles, because it's just so much better from a design standpoint that the argument just feels like "global range bad nyeh." Wails are much weaker when spammed from a distance, they don't ink turf, and they don't randomly one-shot you because the devs didn't randomly give them a lethal hitbox, unlike Missiles.

If someone genuinely thinks Wails are a worse design than Tenta Missiles, they're delusional. You cannot get worse than Missiles.

I agree with you that it's not as bad as missiles, but it does have some of the same flaws to an extent. In particular, they can both be aimed at backlines (from any range) to take them out of play for a time. When I play liter, especially after the missiles radius nerf, killer wails generally keep me from playing the game longer than missiles do, because with missiles I only have to move once, but with wail I have to constantly be moving to dodge them.

Wail is hard to balance using the speed because it disproportionately affects slower weapons, even more than missiles. Again, this is more true after the radius nerf. If there are missiles on any weapon, it has to move. But wail makes slower weapons continuously move and not do their job, while faster weapons (especially shooters) can mostly just ignore the wails because they would already be moving like that anyway.

I saw Terret has 4 stars on explo and 5 stars on ballpoint, and I have 4 stars on quite a few chargers, so that's where our perspective is coming from. I think wail is fine currently as extra damage when rushing people down, it does a great job at that (something I can't say about missiles) so if we change it to reduce how much it hurts slower weapons from a distance, we should make sure to not change that aspect of it. This is why I suggested the damage decrease at longer ranges. It wouldn't make slower weapons be better against it per se, but weapons that play from further back tend to be the slower ones that are hurt by wail the most, so this would indirectly accomplish the same thing while also rewarding the wail user if they can get in range to do max damage. Global range isn't an inherently terrible trait, although it's not great, but specials shouldn't have the same impact (or more) at very long range than they do at more normal distances.

 

[youre_a_squib_now]

I think I figured it out. Or at least, I figured out how we can figure it out.
We can make a table of how well each sub would synergize with each main, and make another table for how well each special would synergize with each main. Then it would be clear what subs would be best for each main, and what mains would be best for each sub. Obviously these aren't the only important factors (we're creating entire kits, not just subs and specials, plus balance, plus favoring current kits, etc) but I think it would be very helpful.

Once I figure out how to run the mod on my switch that's probably what I'll work on

After seeing Chara post a 2 hour video of just range blaster, I'm realizing this is probably going to be harder than I thought

 

[Terret]

After seeing Chara post a 2 hour video of just range blaster, I'm realizing this is probably going to be harder than I thought

It was between 4 people and considering EVERY possible option, but yeah, it’s HARD to figure out kits, not to mention the fact we’re also considering a massive balance patch, attempting to balance the distribution of subs and specials, and what they were already thinking about. That said, I’m kind of slowing down on changes so I’m in for the long run if there’s a good chance to ask about it

 

[youre_a_squib_now]

Wall on s-blast.
Two reasons: 1, this weapon really, really likes cover, and it struggles a lot on maps that don't have a lot of it (hagglefish, for example.) Wall would give it a safer way to go for directs, and would make it harder to rush due to the cover letting it abuse its short range mode. However, due to how slow and somewhat ink hungry it is, it would be easier to counterplay than something like .52, while still being a useful tool for it.

And 2, fizzy and burst would do very similar things for it, and reefslider and booyah do similar things for it. Since weapons can only have two kits (only for now, hopefully) it's important to make sure they're distinct from each other. Analyzing reefslider's playstyle is hard, because right now it's mostly either zones cheese or a death button, but i think if it was good it would be used in a similar way to booyah, as a survival / continuation / displacement special. And the subs are both good movement, painting, and combo tools. Wall would give '91 a unique and fun playstyle distinct from the first kit.

 

[Terret]

Wall on s-blast.
Two reasons: 1, this weapon really, really likes cover, and it struggles a lot on maps that don't have a lot of it (hagglefish, for example.) Wall would give it a safer way to go for directs, and would make it harder to rush due to the cover letting it abuse its short range mode. However, due to how slow and somewhat ink hungry it is, it would be easier to counterplay than something like .52, while still being a useful tool for it.

And 2, fizzy and burst would do very similar things for it, and reefslider and booyah do similar things for it. Since weapons can only have two kits (only for now, hopefully) it's important to make sure they're distinct from each other. Analyzing reefslider's playstyle is hard, because right now it's mostly either zones cheese or a death button, but i think if it was good it would be used in a similar way to booyah, as a survival / continuation / displacement special. And the subs are both good movement, painting, and combo tools. Wall would give '91 a unique and fun playstyle distinct from the first kit.

I like the concept, but there is a reason why wall is rarely on AOE weapons (exceptions being something like Rapid which likes being far back). Wall can be very helpful on one end but on another, it can be a kit killer. In this case, arguably worse than sprinkler. Blasters in general are hard to figure out subs for because of how picky they tend to be. They basically only like bombs. And SBlast is a MORE extreme case of needing one, only blaster more so than it is Luna. Maybe due to being an environment without armor, and if I short range to match long range mine could work. In terms of other ideas if there REALLY should be a unique playstyle, beakons is an interesting concept imo. Mist could also be a very interesting idea to push for playing for more directs but still not great

 

[youre_a_squib_now]

I like the concept, but there is a reason why wall is rarely on AOE weapons (exceptions being something like Rapid which likes being far back).

They also had a reason to put beakons on sploosh, but that doesn't mean it was a good reason or that there's any synergy. What do you think is their reason, and why do you think it's valid?

As for the range thing, I'd like to point out that .52 is one of the best wall users, and it doesn't have nearly as much range as rapid. It uses its wall very aggressively. And besides, s-blast does have a similar range to rapid, and although it has a small indirect radius, a wall would let it go for long range directs much more easily with good positioning. (This is one of its primary struggles right now, because if you go for a direct and miss or there are other players, there is quite a bit of endlag that can make it very risky.) Also, the short range mode would let it hit opponents that are rushing it down while it switches sides of the wall, in a similar way to .52. Obviously neither of these comparisons are perfect, but I think they show why it would work on '92 similarly to those other weapons.

Wall can be very helpful on one end but on another, it can be a kit killer.

This is true. But what makes you think it wouldn't be helpful on s-blast specifically?

Blasters in general are hard to figure out subs for because of how picky they tend to be. They basically only like bombs. And SBlast is a MORE extreme case of needing one, only blaster more so than it is Luna.

Why do you think it so badly needs a bomb? Yes, the shorter range blasters need them as poking tools because they really don't have any other way to do that, but s-blast has a long range mode. The small blast radius might not be able to poke (it would with the buff!) but directs certainly can, especially if it gets a wall.

Maybe due to being an environment without armor, and if I short range to match long range mine could work.

gonna be honest, I have no idea what this sentence means. I don't see any reason for mine to be on this weapon. (This is actually true for most weapons but I'll talk about this later.)

In terms of other ideas if there REALLY should be a unique playstyle, beakons is an interesting concept imo. Mist could also be a very interesting idea to push for playing for more directs but still not great

S-blast already has struggles with downtime; why should it get the most expensive sub in the game? And how would it benefit from it any more than, say, dread D?

Mist also seems kind of weird. Maybe it could sometimes let you get more directs, but wall would do that better anyway, and mist also doesn't really cover any of the weapon's weaknesses.

 

[Terret]

They also had a reason to put beakons on sploosh, but that doesn't mean it was a good reason or that there's any synergy. What do you think is their reason, and why do you think it's valid?

My answer: it's not valid. I just know that wall is also favored on weapons that have no benefit from combos whatsoever, and 52 has a longer range than most short ranged shooters and has no issue standing still and threatening a two shot so it does the job.

As for the range thing, I'd like to point out that .52 is one of the best wall users, and it doesn't have nearly as much range as rapid. It uses its wall very aggressively. And besides, s-blast does have a similar range to rapid, and although it has a small indirect radius, a wall would let it go for long range directs much more easily with good positioning. (This is one of its primary struggles right now, because if you go for a direct and miss or there are other players, there is quite a bit of endlag that can make it very risky.) Also, the short range mode would let it hit opponents that are rushing it down while it switches sides of the wall, in a similar way to .52. Obviously neither of these comparisons are perfect, but I think they show why it would work on '92 similarly to those other weapons.

I'd see your point if not for the fact there are multiple examples of AOE weapons with wall that suffer immensely because of it. Flingza from S2 is a decent comparison because it really can't take advantage of it as much as it seems like it could, even with a bomb rush which was pretty good back in 2. Range Blaster when it was a much better main weapon in S1, HATES wall. It is also in part due to strike but vanilla range was HORRIBLE in 1. Slosher also DESPISED wall back in 1 and it had KRAKEN as a special. Swig also hates wall in this game, as an AOE weapon that has it in the vanilla game.

This is true. But what makes you think it wouldn't be helpful on s-blast specifically?

Similar reason as to why REEFLUX hates wall. S'Blast is a weapon that due to its range value, HATES standing still. Maybe a little less so than Flux but still. Same reason why something like Squiffer should never get a wall. Why slosher hates wall, why rollers have always done terrible with a wall. And Blasters are basically the combination of the two classes.

Why do you think it so badly needs a bomb? Yes, the shorter range blasters need them as poking tools because they really don't have any other way to do that, but s-blast has a long range mode. The small blast radius might not be able to poke (it would with the buff!) but directs certainly can, especially if it gets a wall.

Because I know that no utility sub gives it the necessary opportunities to combo. Custom Blaster does have sensor though so I am lightening up on the idea of giving a utility sub but wall has been consistently shown to NEVER work on short ranged AOE. Long range AOE is its own thing, hence why Explo is okay with wall, why Rapid wouldn't mind wall, etc.. I'm not saying bombs are an ABSOLUTE must, even though it might seem like it and I do think it makes complete sense to keep fizzy for synergy and distribution. I'm just saying there's a reason why wall is not a good choice for oneshot blasters in general.

gonna be honest, I have no idea what this sentence means. I don't see any reason for mine to be on this weapon. (This is actually true for most weapons but I'll talk about this later.)

I messed this phrasing up lmao. I thought in my head if the short ranged radius had 60 then maybe a vision with mines could work as a more backish playstyle, but even then, the fact it hates to not move makes mines not great for it.

S-blast already has struggles with downtime; why should it get the most expensive sub in the game? And how would it benefit from it any more than, say, dread D?

The thing with beakon is that there are no white ink frames and you are almost never setting them up at the heat of battle, which makes it far more reasonable of an option than you might think. And if S'Blast 92 back in 4.0 is something to go by, if you have an entry tool, you really don't need a poking bomb as much if your main weapon can fight. Which as a onetrick weapon, it DEFINITELY can, which I can't say quite the same for dread, which almost NEEDS a bomb due to having a 90 damage maximum which has worse reliability than S'Blast's long ranged indirect was with 1.8 units.

Mist also seems kind of weird. Maybe it could sometimes let you get more directs, but wall would do that better anyway, and mist also doesn't really cover any of the weapon's weaknesses.

Mist was never meant to cover weaknesses, rather enhance strengths since the 91 kit already covers weaknesses really well. Wall would not help S'Blast as much as you think since S'Blast wants to keep on moving as it fights. Mist slows down the opponent, allowing you to well, keep moving. As for the direct situation for S'Blast, you need to be RUSHING for directs, you want to be peeking like crazy. You do NOT want something that incentivizes you to stay in place. Mist would be MUCH better for getting directs in comparison.

 

[youre_a_squib_now]

ok you've convinced me

 

[youre_a_squib_now]

hot take: sub+special distribution doesn't matter.

The problem right now is that Nintendo put the subs that work on only a few weapons (*cough* sprinkler) on a whole bunch of weapons, and they put the ones that work on basically everything on just a few weapons.

Maybe we shouldn't remove subs, but if only 5 weapons would really want a sprinkler, then there can just be only 5 sprinkler weapons and that's okay. Weapons getting kits they like should be more important than every sub and special being on the same number of weapons.

 

[Terret]

hot take: sub+special distribution doesn't matter.

The problem right now is that Nintendo put the subs that work on only a few weapons (*cough* sprinkler) on a whole bunch of weapons, and they put the ones that work on basically everything on just a few weapons.

Maybe we shouldn't remove subs, but if only 5 weapons would really want a sprinkler, then there can just be only 5 sprinkler weapons and that's okay. Weapons getting kits they like should be more important than every sub and special being on the same number of weapons.

It doesn't matter THAT much, but there has to be some kind of restriction on kits, otherwise, what's the point of balancing weapons when I just give them something like suction zooka and then be done with it? This is why I think distribution does matter in the grand scheme of things and has been a big part in some of my decisions. I am cutting to seven fizzys after this and due to a LOT of weapons that have torp either love torp absurdly or have fizzy on their second kit, it’s getting harder to keep the current sub cap at 11