Spawn Camping: Good or Bad?

[Award]

It's....seriously just a simple video game is all. I never will understand these wild comparisons. What does Splatoon have to do with real warfare? Nothing. It has nothing to do with real warfare nor the issues we face in everyday life. Why does it have to be brought up and compared to Splatoon? It doesn't make any sense and frankly, it's taking the fun out of Splatoon. I don't want to have to think about real world problems every single time that I play an innocent Nintendo game. We're talking about spawn camping in an innocent video game. Not talking about wiping out an entire race. The two aren't even comparable. I just...really don't understand.

No. Not the same cannot be said nor applied to real life. It is a simple video game. What a player does in video games does not show how they would react to something in real life. That's actually a bit of a crazy thought. We're use weapons based off of real weapons. Does that mean we're going to pick up a gun and go kill someone because we did that in Splatoon? Of course not. That would be crazy to say. So why try to connect genocide and warfare with a video game? Just because someone spawn camps in a video game doesn't mean they're going to go off and support a real war where real lives are at stack. This doesn't make any sense at all and frankly, it's an extremely wild and out there comparison to make. This is on the same level of people who say video games make people violent. Except they don't and it's just a wild comparison.

I think this will be my last response. I know you didn't mean any offense but I'm certainly not interested in having the subject compared to real life warfare.
I'd rather continue to play the game for fun and that's all. So I'll just leave this conversation here.

It's not so much a comparison to warfare so much as civility and state of mind. People's behavior, people's respect of others, and people's ability to justify their own behavior when beneficial to themselves. A game is, by definition, a representation of real life by way of competition. The way one treats others in a game is not isolated from the real world, because it's real people acting and real people reacting.

More specifically, it IS just a game. And if someone can justify their less than respectful actions that run contrary to the spirit of the competition on the grounds that it's valid, can't be prevented in the rules, in a game in which victory is irrelevant, it speaks a lot of how someone would treat a real live situation in which victory does matter. Whether it's warfare, taxes, or getting that front parking spot at the supermarket, it's a window into the way people view their position toward others and how they are willing to justify any behavior they choose to. The game is real life because it takes place in real life, and you're dealing with real people behind those fresh clothiered tentacled faces, not video game AI. Being a jerk to Ganondorf is fine that's really NOT real life. Being a jerk to 4 people playing a game is real life and is their real life recreation time.

That's, again, not criticism aimed at you at all, but in the general context of spawncamping behavior. That's what's ultimately wrong with it. It's inherently antisocial behavior and not too dissonant from the griefers. They don't play the game, they play around the game "because they can." I don't believe you're one of the people in that group.

 

[Nero86]

I'll be honest, in turf wars here, there're some maps which naturally guides you to spawn camp. I mean, your team did paint everything, and the only space left for your team to progress is the opponent team's respawn area. I feel not guilty when it happens and not angry when others do it against me, the map itself tends to that.
Maps that this happens a lot: Bluebelly Skate and Hammerhead Bridge.

But if what this topic says is about someone who neglects pushing the objective to go alone kill people on respawn, then things change for me. It's someone who doesn't cooperate with a team looking for the pleasure of messing up other's experience, it's kinda sick to me.
I rarely see people like that on A+, S and S+ ranks, I see most of those in splatfests.

@Award
Nice comparison, I think it's mature and realist point of view.

 

[LAX]

It's not so much a comparison to warfare so much as civility and state of mind. People's behavior, people's respect of others, and people's ability to justify their own behavior when beneficial to themselves. A game is, by definition, a representation of real life by way of competition. The way one treats others in a game is not isolated from the real world, because it's real people acting and real people reacting.

More specifically, it IS just a game. And if someone can justify their less than respectful actions that run contrary to the spirit of the competition on the grounds that it's valid, can't be prevented in the rules, in a game in which victory is irrelevant, it speaks a lot of how someone would treat a real live situation in which victory does matter. Whether it's warfare, taxes, or getting that front parking spot at the supermarket, it's a window into the way people view their position toward others and how they are willing to justify any behavior they choose to. The game is real life because it takes place in real life, and you're dealing with real people behind those fresh clothiered tentacled faces, not video game AI. Being a jerk to Ganondorf is fine that's really NOT real life. Being a jerk to 4 people playing a game is real life and is their real life recreation time.

That's, again, not criticism aimed at you at all, but in the general context of spawncamping behavior. That's what's ultimately wrong with it. It's inherently antisocial behavior and not too dissonant from the griefers. They don't play the game, they play around the game "because they can." I don't believe you're one of the people in that group.

If you get spawncamped then you need to git gud. Simple as that. It really isn't antisocial because it is JUST A GAME. JESUS CHRIST!!! I see why people don't like spawncamping. It is a learning experience. As a charger main, I can say that even I participate in spawncamps and it is fun to spawncamp. Honestly, it's fun warding off spawncampers too because it gives a chance for a memorable comeback. If you take proper precautions BEFORE you get spawncamped then it's easy. Stop whining people and git gud.

 

[Award]

I'll be honest, in turf wars here, there're some maps which naturally guides you to spawn camp. I mean, your team did paint everything, and the only space left for your team to progress is the opponent team's respawn area. I feel not guilty when it happens and not angry when others do it against me, the map itself tends to that.
Maps that this happens a lot: Bluebelly Skate and Hammerhead Bridge.

But if what this topic says is about someone who neglects pushing the objective to go alone kill people on respawn, then things change for me. It's someone who doesn't cooperate with a team looking for the pleasure of messing up other's experience, it's kinda sick to me.
I rarely see people like that on A+, S and S+ ranks, I see most of those in splatfests.

I'd add Walleye Warehouse and Port Mackerel. Possibly Arowanna Mall as well, though that one doesn't tend to be as definitive as the others, to that list. It's also one of the reasons why it's the 5 original maps that tend to be among the most frustrating. I think the devs learned from their map design mistakes, somewhat, that led to some of the spawncamping problems for later stages. The redesigned underpass didn't fix enough of it's original problems and kind of occupies that list as well. I agree, that's the first type of "spawncamp" I described in my first post. That's not really a spawncamp but a logical progression of pushing mid all the way to the enemy spawn. That's not really a spawncamp and should take place late in the match (unless one side was so unbalanced they stomped the other rapidly which is Nintendo's fault.)

It's the second type you mention that presents the real problem. I think you don't see it in A+ and above ranks simply because both teams SHOULD be good enough that the tactic doesn't work so well when tried. However A+ and above rank players are often the ones who will possibly inadvertently initiate/enable such a tactic when they are in a lobby lower ranked than them be it TW or ranked. The tactic @Leronne described of storming the base is usually what starts it. It's not that the tactic he described is really him spawncamping, he's really just base-raiding to keep the enemy off balance. It's when his opponent is inferior skill and/or his possibly inferior teammates cash in on the opening he created to hold a spawncamp that it becomes a spawncamp with them just hiding in the enemy base to kill people on respawn or openly hop around and taunt the trapped respawners while the high skill player is usually long gone from the enemy base and working on the objective.

The other way it starts is what you described, where one player just goes off alone from the start and just lingers around respawn killing everyone as they leave spawn. They are the players that don't contribute much to turfing in TW, never carry the RM or get on the tower, never paint the zone. They just park in the enemy base and kill people as they leave spawn as their main strategy. They'll proudly and defiantly proclaim how viable the strategy is and how it works. And unfortunately, all too often, it does. It also sucks the fun out of playing the game for their opponents because they don't really get to play the game.

Upon thinking more about it I do believe the Super Jump mechanic is what makes spawncamping SO bad though. There should maybe be a zone around the base quarters of the map that you can't SJ to. The idea that if ANY teammate of theirs is near the base, they can never be fought off, like zombies, is problematic. If it's a spawncamp of 2 or more, one just acts as the anchor for the spawncamp. Every time you kill one they're right back there. I was dealing with an attempted spawncamping krak-on and carbon roller in RM yesterday. The krak-on laid the beacons, the carbon followed, and both hid in the base in hammerhead ninja-assasinating everyone. I kept flushing him and his beacons out. Thankfully I was much better at splat roller flinging than he! But if I didn't get both him AND his carbon friend simultaneously (usually it was alternately) the one would just jump back to the other and be hidden on the other side again, so I'd having to keep running back and forth for them. Every time their RM carrier came up I'd have to divert attention there and then have to find the campers again. If I did manage to get both, and the beacons, they'd just jump CLOSE to the base to their 4th member and set up again.

Thankfully these guys were bad spawncamp attempters. They won the match (we had a dropout) but were prevented from getting a ko. But they highlighted the nature of the problem with spawncamps. If players had to swim back out from spawn when killed rather than jumping back in, spawncamps wouldn't be half as controversial. Even if they could jump only to the outside of your "base zone" but had to swim into the base rather than jumping back into it I don't think it would be as controversial. It's their zombification that makes them a problem.

I also still think there is a place for that strategy as part of a coordinated team strategy in squads/clan/private battles as both teams can coordinate an overall strategy where everyone has a role prior to the match. With randoms where there can be no coordination or role definition, it's exploitative.

 

[Dessgeega]

If you get spawncamped then you need to git gud. Simple as that. It really isn't antisocial because it is JUST A GAME. JESUS CHRIST!!! I see why people don't like spawncamping. It is a learning experience. As a charger main, I can say that even I participate in spawncamps and it is fun to spawncamp. Honestly, it's fun warding off spawncampers too because it gives a chance for a memorable comeback. If you take proper precautions BEFORE you get spawncamped then it's easy. Stop whining people and git gud.

I don't think anyone unironically saying "git gud" is qualified to be giving out advice. Not that there's any to be had here regardless.

 

[LAX]

I don't think anyone unironically saying "git gud" is qualified to be giving out advice. Not that there's any to be had here regardless.

Well, I would say that if you get spawncamped and it is an even 4v4 match with no one dropping out, then it shouldn't happen regardless of how bad you team is. It is true that you really do need to git gud if someone is spawncamping. What Award said just really pissed me off and has nothing to do with the topic on whether spawncamping is bad or gud IN GAME!!!

 

[Nero86]

I'd add Walleye Warehouse and Port Mackerel. Possibly Arowanna Mall as well, though that one doesn't tend to be as definitive as the others, to that list. It's also one of the reasons why it's the 5 original maps that tend to be among the most frustrating. I think the devs learned from their map design mistakes, somewhat, that led to some of the spawncamping problems for later stages. The redesigned underpass didn't fix enough of it's original problems and kind of occupies that list as well. I agree, that's the first type of "spawncamp" I described in my first post. That's not really a spawncamp but a logical progression of pushing mid all the way to the enemy spawn. That's not really a spawncamp and should take place late in the match (unless one side was so unbalanced they stomped the other rapidly which is Nintendo's fault.)

It's the second type you mention that presents the real problem. I think you don't see it in A+ and above ranks simply because both teams SHOULD be good enough that the tactic doesn't work so well when tried. However A+ and above rank players are often the ones who will possibly inadvertently initiate/enable such a tactic when they are in a lobby lower ranked than them be it TW or ranked. The tactic @Leronne described of storming the base is usually what starts it. It's not that the tactic he described is really him spawncamping, he's really just base-raiding to keep the enemy off balance. It's when his opponent is inferior skill and/or his possibly inferior teammates cash in on the opening he created to hold a spawncamp that it becomes a spawncamp with them just hiding in the enemy base to kill people on respawn or openly hop around and taunt the trapped respawners while the high skill player is usually long gone from the enemy base and working on the objective.

The other way it starts is what you described, where one player just goes off alone from the start and just lingers around respawn killing everyone as they leave spawn. They are the players that don't contribute much to turfing in TW, never carry the RM or get on the tower, never paint the zone. They just park in the enemy base and kill people as they leave spawn as their main strategy. They'll proudly and defiantly proclaim how viable the strategy is and how it works. And unfortunately, all too often, it does. It also sucks the fun out of playing the game for their opponents because they don't really get to play the game.

Upon thinking more about it I do believe the Super Jump mechanic is what makes spawncamping SO bad though. There should maybe be a zone around the base quarters of the map that you can't SJ to. The idea that if ANY teammate of theirs is near the base, they can never be fought off, like zombies, is problematic. If it's a spawncamp of 2 or more, one just acts as the anchor for the spawncamp. Every time you kill one they're right back there. I was dealing with an attempted spawncamping krak-on and carbon roller in RM yesterday. The krak-on laid the beacons, the carbon followed, and both hid in the base in hammerhead ninja-assasinating everyone. I kept flushing him and his beacons out. Thankfully I was much better at splat roller flinging than he! But if I didn't get both him AND his carbon friend simultaneously (usually it was alternately) the one would just jump back to the other and be hidden on the other side again, so I'd having to keep running back and forth for them. Every time their RM carrier came up I'd have to divert attention there and then have to find the campers again. If I did manage to get both, and the beacons, they'd just jump CLOSE to the base to their 4th member and set up again.

Thankfully these guys were bad spawncamp attempters. They won the match (we had a dropout) but were prevented from getting a ko. But they highlighted the nature of the problem with spawncamps. If players had to swim back out from spawn when killed rather than jumping back in, spawncamps wouldn't be half as controversial. Even if they could jump only to the outside of your "base zone" but had to swim into the base rather than jumping back into it I don't think it would be as controversial. It's their zombification that makes them a problem.

I also still think there is a place for that strategy as part of a coordinated team strategy in squads/clan/private battles as both teams can coordinate an overall strategy where everyone has a role prior to the match. With randoms where there can be no coordination or role definition, it's exploitative.

I'm a beacon placer myself, my job is to avoid my team to get pressed by those situations. If this happens with you someone on your team is not getting back to support your super jump or not placing beacons like it should. By the way you mentioned that match had a dropout which disbalances things terribly.
I run tenacity to have more patience if that happens with me, at least my special gauge is raising and I'm gonna be leave the respawn once I turn into kraken.

Btw, "git gud" won't help other players to deal with this situation.

 

[Award]

I'm a beacon placer myself, my job is to avoid my team to get pressed by those situations. If this happens with you someone on your team is not getting back to support your super jump or not placing beacons like it should. By the way you mentioned that match had a dropout which disbalances things terribly.
I run tenacity to have more patience if that happens with me, at least my special gauge is raising and I'm gonna be leave the respawn once I turn into kraken.

Btw, "git gud" won't help other players to deal with this situation.

Yeah, when I play CEliter I'm generally the beacon keeper, though the beacons are more likely to be left in forward positions in our base rather than stealth positions outside our base like a Sploosh or Krak-On might do. They're more valuable as fallback positions for preventing an approaching camp than they are for escaping a fully developed one. Or the style I described that starts with one good player's base raid is usually going to happen before the beacons can be set up or they take the beacon out on their way in. From there, especially with eliter, it's very map dependent how useful one can be to escape. Some maps it's hard to camp the charger....with that range I can pick them off easily from spawn. Other maps like Skatepark they can get into the valleys and out of scope range so closer ranged weapons are really required to flush them out or escape. I can create my own path out easy enough of course, but I can't defend myself once I get out into enemy ink.

One that is well designed to prevent it, on paper, but sometimes is a campers paradise is Ancho-V. They try to camp there often, and they can hide behind the left wall to avoid getting hit by ranged weapons like a gift to spawncampers everywhere. They provide the side paths to get out, but sadly block the left path in ranked modes leaving a very predictable right path as the only means of escape. This is probably the map that I've seen the "one good player starts the camp" on the most. And due to its small size, the good player is never far away to corral you back in should you escape. Particularly in TW.

Strangely in ranked modes Depot, Mahi and Ancho-V are the 3 I've seen spawncamps on. Skatepark doesn't lend as well to camping ranked as it does TW since the objective leads everyone to be in the access ways anyway.

 

[Swop]

I feel not guilty when it happens and not angry when others do it against me, the map itself tends to that.
Maps that this happens a lot: Bluebelly Skate and Hammerhead Bridge.

I would Strongly add Arowana Mall to that list, I spawn camp on there frequently with a splattershot Jr, then again, maybe I'm just playing with Lower level players.

 

[Elecmaw]

Well, I would say that if you get spawncamped and it is an even 4v4 match with no one dropping out, then it shouldn't happen regardless of how bad you team is. It is true that you really do need to git gud if someone is spawncamping. What Award said just really pissed me off and has nothing to do with the topic on whether spawncamping is bad or gud IN GAME!!!

chill m8, pretty sure he did nothing wrong

Being spawncamped does not put me in a significantly worse situation than being outmatched on the map (unless it's something like Port or Dome), esp. because i have a permanent shield protecting me. Solving a spawncamp is as easy as shooting 2 or more enemies in the face and then take a run for it, meaning the remaining campers have to pick between either tracking the escapee down or keep on guarding spawn. These kind of successful escape attempts do not happen often because the other team are being severely outplayed(hence they got spawn-camped in the first place), which is less of a fault of the players themselves but more of the really bad TW matchmaking. I'm thinking a bit idealistically here, but I personally wish prolonged spawncamping should not happen at all considering how dull/frustrating it is for both parties involved.

 

[binx]

Some of you are basically saying spawncamping is an unescapable situation... But that's not true. Basically, being in your spawn, you're protected. You can turf from there, and when the opponents turf back you know their position. Don't just jump in their ocean and you'll have a chance. You'll even be able to have your special this way.

Well, of course, in random match, some combination of weapons can be bad. For instance, everyone with short range is way harder to go out. But still, with the bombs you can find the opponents, and you still can have your special. You may even wait for one of your teammates to sacrifice himself if needed.

I don't especially spawncamp myself, it just kinda happens sometimes, but I feel it's a normal strategy, and it shouldn't be some added thing to prevent that. Players have to prevent that. If the spawncamp just happens because the map control is already totally gone, then it's your fault. If it happens because one guy just came to the base, then it's still your fault. Not able to kill just one guy isolated in your camp? Basically, spawncamping is the punishment for a mistake. So it's good, as it was said, it will make you improve your game so that you prevent it next time. And thinking about it, I don't even remember the last time I got spawncamp.

 

[Boscolot]

So Recently, I got into a long discussion on how Spawn Camping in Splatoon is Just plain awful and weak.

well.. Its honestly not in my opinion since your stopping the Enemy team from Progressing any further, Not to mention its hard as hell to do successfully at times.

What is your opinion on Spawn Camping in Splatoon?

I won't do it in turf war since it is more casual. I will spawn camp in rainmaker or tower control if it helps my team win. I get annoyed when my teammates try and spawn camp in Zones because they tend to either die or the enemy takes an alternate route out of their base and leaves the rest of us short handed guarding the zone.

 

[LAX]

Some of you are basically saying spawncamping is an unescapable situation... But that's not true. Basically, being in your spawn, you're protected. You can turf from there, and when the opponents turf back you know their position. Don't just jump in their ocean and you'll have a chance. You'll even be able to have your special this way.

Well, of course, in random match, some combination of weapons can be bad. For instance, everyone with short range is way harder to go out. But still, with the bombs you can find the opponents, and you still can have your special. You may even wait for one of your teammates to sacrifice himself if needed.

I don't especially spawncamp myself, it just kinda happens sometimes, but I feel it's a normal strategy, and it shouldn't be some added thing to prevent that. Players have to prevent that. If the spawncamp just happens because the map control is already totally gone, then it's your fault. If it happens because one guy just came to the base, then it's still your fault. Not able to kill just one guy isolated in your camp? Basically, spawncamping is the punishment for a mistake. So it's good, as it was said, it will make you improve your game so that you prevent it next time. And thinking about it, I don't even remember the last time I got spawncamp.

better than i ever could have said it myself

 

[Award]

I won't do it in turf war since it is more casual. I will spawn camp in rainmaker or tower control if it helps my team win. I get annoyed when my teammates try and spawn camp in Zones because they tend to either die or the enemy takes an alternate route out of their base and leaves the rest of us short handed guarding the zone.

To be fair, TC and RM are probably the least likely to pull off a successful spawncamp and the easiest to escape from. The nature of the traveling objective tends to cause the campers to change priorities, considering 1-2 of the campers team HAS to be outside the camp (and otherwise distracted) in order to win. And particularly in RM everyone's spread out and mixed between tackling the objective, maybe tackling the enemy base, and/or trying to carve a pre-emptive path TO the enemy base.

TW and SZ are most susceptible to it. I did get camped in TC once, it was awful and brutal and I hated the enemy for repeatedly doing it, but the real problem was the badly mismatched team. I didn't have a problem flushing out the campers and jumping on the tower, but by the time I'd respawn from getting splatted off the tower, they'd be back to camping in our base and my team seemed to get endlessly splatted by them. If I wasn't ALSO the only one riding the tower, I'd have just guarded the base

 

[モモコ]

I'm sort of neutral about it. A good team would know how to work around spawn campers and would likely prevent it from happening in the first place. It can also be relatively easy for the opposing team to redeem themselves since spawn campers are usually cramped together. A special, such as an Inkzooka, could easily wipe out spawn campers. Heck, any old weapon could probably do the trick. The spawn has a shield, so that makes it that bit easier to make a comeback, too.

However, in some cases it can be a bit difficult to retaliate, such as if a player or two were to disconnect. If that happens, then I try to maintain my distance and try to let them ink turf. That kind of stuff, the disconnects I mean, is out of their control. If it's a matter of higher skilled players spawn camping vs. lower skilled players, well, I don't know where I stand on that.

You are real kind, I do not think I seen anyone doing this.

Most of the time, a person should not go out of their way to spawn camp, it just happens because most of the map is inked.

 

[AC_Decoy]

Annoying when it's done to you, but fun when you're taking part. There is no honour in video games so I have no compunction against doing it.

This is an interesting statement that I would like to explore further. What makes you think playing video games absolve one from honor? How are we defining honor? How do we know that spawncamping is dishonorable or not?

If I get the opportunity to spawncamp, you bet your a** I'm gonna take it. Being on the receiving end of it sucks, but it forces me to learn what I did wrong, so next time I'll be better at avoiding it. I see spawncamping as a "checkmate" type of situation, like you or your team left an opening somewhere for the opposing team to get in and spawncamp. It's a learning experience, really. *Just an opinion*

This is an interesting take to spawncamping. I don't see spawncamping as a "checkmate" necessarily, because in a checkmate you absolutely can't get out of the situation and your king is dead. In Splatoon, as @stitchedwithlove mentioned, a good team would know how to get out of the situation. This is where patience comes in. But as you look desperately at the clock, and the tower or rainmaker is coming ever closer, sometimes in the heat of the moment you can't figure out escape routes. But if you regroup, take some time, the team can work together and make it out in time to stop the other team and maybe make an incredible comeback. Rare, but doable. Not a checkmate.

 

[Ryuji]

This is an interesting statement that I would like to explore further. What makes you think playing video games absolve one from honor? How are we defining honor? How do we know that spawncamping is dishonorable or not?

In video games, honour doesn't exist because all the game knows is winning and losing, along with the rules that it's designed and programmed to follow. 'Honour' is wholly inserted by the players, something which the game knows nothing about. It doesn't penalize or reward you for doing things considered questionable or wrong. No. It's a game where everybody is free to play however they wish, (dis)honourable or not, within the confines of the games rules. Thus, 'honour' is completely irrelevant. I would define honour as what one perceives to be moral or just. Such a concept is not needed in playing games, and would go even so far as to say that being honourable in games will actually work against you, because you're holding yourself back based on an unfounded belief that you are doing the 'right' thing. Then when the games ends you will lose all because of a false sense propriety. For all intents and purposes, playing to win is the true goal, not being honourable. What players do to win the game is their own decision.

At the end of the day, admittedly spawncamping is dishonourable, but no rules are being broken, therefore I believe it to be completely viable.

 

[Award]

In video games, honour doesn't exist because all the game knows is winning and losing, along with the rules that it's designed and programmed to follow. 'Honour' is wholly inserted by the players, something which the game knows nothing about. It doesn't penalize or reward you for doing things considered questionable or wrong. No. It's a game where everybody is free to play however they wish, (dis)honourable or not, within the confines of the games rules. Thus, 'honour' is completely irrelevant. I would define honour as what one perceives to be moral or just. Such a concept is not needed in playing games, and would go even so far as to say that being honourable in games will actually work against you, because you're holding yourself back based on an unfounded belief that you are doing the 'right' thing. Then when the games ends you will lose all because of a false sense propriety. For all intents and purposes, playing to win is the true goal, not being honourable. What players do to win the game is their own decision.

At the end of the day, admittedly spawncamping is dishonourable, but no rules are being broken, therefore I believe it to be completely viable.

That definition is no different in life than it is in games. Everything is a "game" of sorts. Right down to life and death and real wars where honor is always a concept of consideration.

Real life does not score or penalize or reward honor, real life is defined by winning or losing only as well. Winning by any means possible within the rules whether honorable or not is generally the quickest track to success in life just as it is in a game. And the rules only count if you can get caught in real life....breaking them and not getting caught, claiming victory, is as viable and successful as in games as well. Ultimately even murder is acceptable, so long as it's not caught under the rules, so long as it achieves the success you seek. The entirety of human history, from criminal undergrounds to empires and kingdoms has proven that true.

So where does honor fit in?

Honor is a behavioral code applied by humans that supersedes the rules with a layer of acceptable, respectable behavior. It is the element that defines civility versus barbarism. Basic elements of controlling ones own primitive interests with that of civility when interacting with other humans. This is the concept on which any society is built.

So how does honor apply to Splatoon? Because you are interacting with other humans in a supposedly civilized setting. There is no honor in single player video games, certainly. You are fighting a machine, an AI, there are no rules for civility when fighting a pre-scripted programmed machine, the purpose of which is to pose a challenge for you to defeat. But in a game where you're interacting with seven other people, any one of whom could be the very people you're speaking with on this forum, at any time, of course there's honor, for the same reason you wouldn't jump on the forum and start ranting in insults and slurs and everything else at people here. Because it's civil decorum interacting with real people.

When "honor" stops existing so you can win the game, you end up with Tanya Harding and Nanci Kerrigan. For those too young to remember...don't worry about it. It's a real sports example of intrigue, hired hits, the global agony of broken shoelaces, and the most honorless behavior you can think of in "just a game." "Honor" in sports is referred to as "sportsmanship". The concept is the same. It does not always help one win, but it is a respected attribute all the same.

Ultimately yes, honor is "inserted by the players" and isn't part of the scoring. Just as it is in every single event and interaction in life. The most honorless shall nearly always reap the greatest rewards. Yet so many chose to be honorable knowing this. When you play a game like Splatoon you are engaging with other people. The game doesn't absolve any choices in ones behavior, and the choice to abstract oneself from their own behavior because telegraphing electronic game moves to the other players instead of playing them face to face allows one to do so doesn't actually change the nature of those actions.

That's not contributing to the conversation of the nature of spawncamping, and under which situations it becomes dishonorable versus just the natural progression of the game, but only references the topic of how honor does or does not fit into behavior while playing Splatoon or any other game played with real people, and how honor is always a choice one makes as a reflection of their own nature. Nothing can insulate one from their own behavior towards others whether it is strangers dressed as squidkids, or people across the table in a chess game. In the game, as in life, you can chose to be honorable, or choose to be dishonorable. Both are permitted by the rules.

 

[NotAPerso]

That definition is no different in life than it is in games. Everything is a "game" of sorts. Right down to life and death and real wars where honor is always a concept of consideration.

Real life does not score or penalize or reward honor, real life is defined by winning or losing only as well. Winning by any means possible within the rules whether honorable or not is generally the quickest track to success in life just as it is in a game. And the rules only count if you can get caught in real life....breaking them and not getting caught, claiming victory, is as viable and successful as in games as well. Ultimately even murder is acceptable, so long as it's not caught under the rules, so long as it achieves the success you seek. The entirety of human history, from criminal undergrounds to empires and kingdoms has proven that true.

So where does honor fit in?

Honor is a behavioral code applied by humans that supersedes the rules with a layer of acceptable, respectable behavior. It is the element that defines civility versus barbarism. Basic elements of controlling ones own primitive interests with that of civility when interacting with other humans. This is the concept on which any society is built.

So how does honor apply to Splatoon? Because you are interacting with other humans in a supposedly civilized setting. There is no honor in single player video games, certainly. You are fighting a machine, an AI, there are no rules for civility when fighting a pre-scripted programmed machine, the purpose of which is to pose a challenge for you to defeat. But in a game where you're interacting with seven other people, any one of whom could be the very people you're speaking with on this forum, at any time, of course there's honor, for the same reason you wouldn't jump on the forum and start ranting in insults and slurs and everything else at people here. Because it's civil decorum interacting with real people.

When "honor" stops existing so you can win the game, you end up with Tanya Harding and Nanci Kerrigan. For those too young to remember...don't worry about it. It's a real sports example of intrigue, hired hits, the global agony of broken shoelaces, and the most honorless behavior you can think of in "just a game." "Honor" in sports is referred to as "sportsmanship". The concept is the same. It does not always help one win, but it is a respected attribute all the same.

Ultimately yes, honor is "inserted by the players" and isn't part of the scoring. Just as it is in every single event and interaction in life. The most honorless shall nearly always reap the greatest rewards. Yet so many chose to be honorable knowing this. When you play a game like Splatoon you are engaging with other people. The game doesn't absolve any choices in ones behavior, and the choice to abstract oneself from their own behavior because telegraphing electronic game moves to the other players instead of playing them face to face allows one to do so doesn't actually change the nature of those actions.

That's not contributing to the conversation of the nature of spawncamping, and under which situations it becomes dishonorable versus just the natural progression of the game, but only references the topic of how honor does or does not fit into behavior while playing Splatoon or any other game played with real people, and how honor is always a choice one makes as a reflection of their own nature. Nothing can insulate one from their own behavior towards others whether it is strangers dressed as squidkids, or people across the table in a chess game. In the game, as in life, you can chose to be honorable, or choose to be dishonorable. Both are permitted by the rules.

There's a big difference from forcibly putting another team at a disadvantage and simply outplaying them through any means necessary. At no point during any "camping" scenario do you take away the other team's ability to play or win.
"Unsportsmanlike conduct" is more equivalent to messing with someone's controller in a manner where the other player can not take action in game (not possible unless local play) or gaining invincibility through hacking or glitching.

Just because a playstyle generates more salt does not make it "unfair" or" unsportsmanlike". Stacking damage up on Chargers, hiding and popping out just to secure a kill, using a splash wall, spawn camping, all are within the rules of the game and do not result in any kind of "unfair advantage".

This "honor" debate is bogus and just a crutch that bad players are using to complain about being outplayed.

 

[Award]

As I said, my response to the above was not specific to spawncamping but specifically Ryuji's statement's about there being no honor in gaming becuase the game doesn't understand the concept.

But specifically on your points regarding spawncamping:

through any means necessary.

That's the kind of wording that makes all of this questionable. It inherently implies below-the-board tactics. It would simply be "winning" without the "through any means necessary" part. It implies one of two scenarios: If the team were capable of beating you, or even making it a close match, you wouldn't have succeeded in spawncamping them in the first place. Or your opponent was a viable match, but instead of playing the objective openly, your team resorted to play via methods other than the objective of the game due to being unable to win overtly. It's inherently a tactic to suppress enemies that were weaker than you from the start, or to deceive enemies that were stronger than you. In either case, it's not actually playing the game. That's where the acceptability of it comes into question.

While it's true that the game does permit it, it's also true that the developers made numerous, possibly flawed attempts in their map design to try to avert it. As a result, the newer stages are less susceptible to it than the original stages. It's clearly an unintended consequence of early map design. Choosing to exploit that design issue is, indeed a choice.

At no point during any "camping" scenario do you take away the other team's ability to play or win.

Why do it then? If you're not taking away their ability to play or win, is it not simply a waste of everyone's time? Of COURSE it takes away their ability at least to win, that's the whole point of doing it!

"Unsportsmanlike conduct" is more equivalent to messing with someone's controller in a manner where the other player can not take action in game (not possible unless local play) or gaining invincibility through hacking or glitching.

No, that's just plain cheating and rules violations ("deflategate".) Not "unsportsmanlike conduct." Unsportsmanlike conduct is precisely directed at individual behavior that's not explicitly prohibited by the rules but still creates a disruption to the spirit of the game. The NFL example (using deflategate as the cheating/violations example) would be the issues with ball spiking and showboating after a touchdown which was reigned in due to unsportsmanlike conduct. That doesn't influence victory however. NHL might be a better example of intentional checking to start fights. It's not expressly prohibited as checks happen, however, no one can legitimately claim that intentionally checking is actually a sportsmanlike behavior, or within the spirit of the game. It can't be punished because it can't be definitively proven to be intentional. But those involved will still know. That's more like the spawncamp issue.

Just because a playstyle generates more salt does not make it "unfair" or" unsportsmanlike". Stacking damage up on Chargers, hiding and popping out just to secure a kill, using a splash wall, spawn camping, all are within the rules of the game and do not result in any kind of "unfair advantage".

Keep in mind we're not talking about when a spawncamp is the result of the natural flow of gameplay. We're talking about when it's a deliberate attempt early in the game to take over the enemy base and corrale the enemy team in. Against a superior team that should not work. So we're talking, from the start, about basically showboating against a weaker team, or using deception to basically play a DIFFERENT game than the one everybody else intends to play.

I'm not saying one shouldn't be competitive, fierce and aggressive in their play. Of course they should. The spawncamping being discussed is something different than mere baseraids and map control.

This "honor" debate is bogus and just a crutch that bad players are using to complain about being outplayed.

Choosing your own action isn't a crutch used by anyone else. I have been spawncamped, and I have been in a position to spawncamp. As have many others participating in this thread. I choose not to participate in the latter, I try to dislodge the former. I have no respect for those who enact the former. There's no "honor" in it because there is no accomplishment to be prideful of. A display of power against an inferior foe is at best, boasting over a lowly accomplishment, or at worst a display of doubt in your own ability to defeat a clearly inferior opponent in the proper game. In either case, there is nothing to be proud of, and no honor in what amounts to a taunt in those situations.


Completely off-topic, but I'm pretty sure I saw you on one of the rosters in this or last splatfest. I don't remember if you were on my team or one of the other teams. I don't have any specific memories of playing with or against you (So I'm pretty sure you weren't one of those spawncamping *holes on either team in that match ;) ) But your name just kind of rang a bell along with someone else by the name of "i am a pen" that I sometimes see in solo ranked as well as splatfests. :) Another good example of how the "strangers" you play with are real people that just might be the people you talk to here :D