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Spawn Camping: Good or Bad?

Discussion in 'Regular Discussion' started by Swop, Feb 20, 2016.

  1. NotAPerso

    NotAPerso Inkling Cadet

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    Please explain how winning a match isn't playing the game. Obviously the objective must be captured and maintained or a spawn camp is pointless.


    Nothing wrong with playing how a map and mode permits.


    Ability: power or capacity to do or act physically, mentally

    Players still are able to break a spawn camp and win. Victory is never assured until the game ends.


    Please use examples that are relevant. Outplaying an entire team is not equivalent to hitting another player with a stick. Your examples are closer to hacking or glitching which are unfair.


    No difference in how a situation begins.
    Yeah, you are stating players should voluntarily give up their position because "honor".

    I'm sorry that you have no respect for being beaten just because it's a method you may deem unfair. If you're feeling taunted by losing a three minute match then perhaps you should put a check on your emotions.
    I went by "Clefairy" on the Blue team. It's possible you've seen me as "Perso" in solo rank S/S+.
     
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  2. Kenni

    Kenni Inkling

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    I find spawn camping thrilling! It is always so fun to single-handedly camp them, the rush I get is quite nice (and my dear teammates have one, four less things to worry about). Same goes for being camped- observing the enemy's tactics from spawn can generate new ideas on how to go about the situation. Oh, there are two on the left and two on the right? Zip down the middle! Evenly distributed? Flick one off, you've got a hole in their plan! Not all teammates are absolute dolts either, so they may see what you are doing and go about things their own way. Learning such things has helped me in ranked in the times they've been applicable, ahuhu.
     
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  3. MrL1193

    MrL1193 Inkling Cadet

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    Spawn camping is not "showboating." It is not "taunting." It is not "disrespect." All that it is is a vastly superior position for one team.

    How exactly does this situation come about? Because one team uses "unfair" tactics that the other team has no way of countering? No. It happens because one team outplays the other. Either one team repeatedly wins their fights and encroaches on the enemy base, or one team gambles and goes straight for the enemy base, attempting to hold them in without first taking full control of the map. Either way, it is not an easy feat to pull off.

    In short, a successful spawn camp can only happen as a result of good play. And that leads me to a question: Why should good play not be rewarded? Why should it be that after one team outplays the other for 2 minutes straight, their victory is still no more secure than it was after the first 30 seconds of the match? Why should the losing team still have just as good a chance of making a comeback, despite all the mistakes they've made up to that point?

    This point about gaining more of an advantage is particularly relevant when it comes to Turf War. In ranked modes, if you consistently outplay the enemy team for just 1 or 2 minutes, you win by knockout. At that point, the game is over and done with; there is no chance for the enemy team to make a comeback. However, in Turf War, the match lasts the full 3 minutes no matter how well you play. And during those 3 minutes, there is an ever-present threat of the enemy team making a comeback. You may have heard people say that the outcome of a Turf War match is determined by the last 30 seconds. I have both won and lost matches due to such turnarounds, and I assure you that they can happen just as fast as people say they do. What this all amounts to is that in Turf War, spawn camping is the only way in which a team can safeguard their victory--and even then, it is not much of a cushion. All it takes is one full wipe for the spawn camping team, and by the time they respawn and get back into the action, the enemy team will be almost at the middle of the map again. If they are not in such a dominant position, a full wipe usually means completely losing their advantage over the enemy team. Thus, due to this volatility that is characteristic of Turf War, spawn camping is the only way to gain some measure of safety.

    It is precisely because of all this--because spawn camping is a sign of a large disparity in the quality of play by the two teams--that spawn camping has the psychological impact that it does. There is no denying that it induces much rage, and the reason for that is that the losing players know full well that they were severely outplayed. However, I suspect that the response of the losing players also has something to do with their opinions of themselves as players. If a player is comfortable with his own skill overall, he will probably either chalk it up to being an isolated bad match on his part or tip his hat to the other team for their skilled play and move on. However, it seems like the players with less confidence in themselves are the ones who are more likely to complain. They are the ones who complain that the opponents were "bullying" them, or that the opponents were going overboard.

    There are several reasons that I disapprove of this attitude. The first is that it wrongly assumes that the opponents are spawn camping out of some sick desire to torture them. I have already gone over why this is not the case. Spawn camping is just a way of ensuring victory--nothing more.
    The second reason is that it is a defeatist attitude. Rather than trying to better themselves, these players are crying out for their opponents to come down to their level. However, I do not believe that this is the proper response. What they should be doing instead is learning from their mistakes so that they will not be spawn camped next time.

    Now, I can already hear some people objecting, "But I was spawn camped for the entire game! I didn't get a chance to learn anything!" I can say with confidence that unless you were AFK the entire time, you did get a chance to do something. Analyze what you did before the spawn camp began and see if there were any mistakes that gave the enemy the chance to begin spawn camping you. Examine what you did during the spawn camp to see if doing something different would have given you a chance to break out. And if you truly have no regrets about the way you yourself played during that game, think about what you saw your teammates doing and see if they made some key mistakes that you should try to avoid making yourself. Spawn camping does not just happen as a result of bad luck; there has to be something that went wrong for your team. And if that "something that went wrong" turns out to be something that is beyond the control of the players--a DC, 4 snipers randomly assigned to the same team, etc.--then there really is no point in blaming the opposing players for taking advantage of their good fortune.



    In summary, barring factors such as DC's and poor team composition, a successful spawn camp is nothing more than the fair and just reward for good play by the winning team and the fair and just punishment for poor play by the losing team. The spawn camping players are merely taking advantage of the opportunities given to them, and there is nothing "underhanded" about that.
     
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  4. Flareth

    Flareth Inkling Fleet Admiral

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    I won't lie, I've been easing up my stance on this. What I said about being out for blood (hemocyanin?) during the Splatfest, well, it's crept into regular Turf Wars as of late. While I'm still winning most of my matches through simply holding the middle ground, increasingly my losses are becoming spawncamp situations. Me being me, it screws with my psyche, and thus I begin to hold no qualms about getting in on the action. (Admittedly it's the rest of the team that starts it, I just help out.)

    I know, I know, I'm supposed to turn the other cheek & whatnot. But damn does it feel good to dish out some sweet, sweet revenge.
     
  5. Award

    Award Squid Savior From the Future

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    How you play the game, and how you achieve victory still matters in addition to simply winning. The game is played by battling for mid. Your opinion is that bee-lining right to the enemy spawn of a weaker team to hold them down is a fair tactic. Not everyone views that tactic as fair or an acceptable behavior. No one can stop you from choosing to do that, but simply know not everyone views it the same way you do. You may not care about the opinion of others on the matter, however if you didn't care at ALL you probably wouldn't be trying to defend your position in this thread. Clearly you do desire to have your view more generally accepted, but as of now, some people don't.

    For those that don't, it's a matter that being spawncamped sucks the fun out of the match. The purpose of the game is to have fun. It's not a profession. You don't gain anything by grinding to perfection. The point is to have fun. Being spawncamped is not fun. Therefore, why would I do that to someone else? Some people gain pleasure from demonstrating power over others. Whether it's in a simple game or the darkest chapters of human history, that personality trait is the momentum behind that. Those of us who do not share that trait see no gain from doing so.

    I think that's a different topic from this thread overall. The OP started a discussion on the topic on whether HOLDING a spawncamp is good or bad, ostensibly from a sportsmanship/ethics perspective, not whether it's good or bad to BE spawncamped. I'm not sure there'd be much of a discussion around "who likes to get spawncamped?" :) I neither have respect for spawncampers when I am spawncamped nor for my teammates who hold a spawncamp. In addition to them demonstrating "poor sportsmanship", they've just wasted 3 minutes of my time during which I intended to be playing a game. In TW, where it's the biggest problem, what do I gain in exchange for 3 minutes of boredom due to their heroic conquest of players 3 ranks behind them? An arrow shaped cartoon cat's tail pointing in my direction for 2 seconds?

    Hmm, could have been Perso in solo queue. Either that or there's a "NotAPerson" in-game also that only seemed similar. I don't think I'd have remembered a Clefairy on Blue with so many Pokemon names around that day :)


    That's an excellent, well written advocacy for spawncamping. Probably the best reasoning I've seen anywhere yet. You make some very good points on the matter, though one thing I do take exception to is the assuming of the enemy team making a comeback, and the camp being necessary to ensure victory, the risk of a team wipe, etc. Generally speaking any team capable of ANY of the above was unlikely to be spawncamped to begin with. It's a justification of spawncamping based on the assumption your opponents are indeed skilled without factoring in that if they were capable of being spawncamped the likelihood that more than 1-2 players on that team can outskill your team is very low.

    Additionally, spawncamps frequently occur as a result of a disconnect on one team. This often results in high skilled opponents, sadly, often very high rank players who should know much better, genuinely "taunting" or "bullying" or "showboating" at the opponent's spawn. Jumping around outside the shield, pelting it to show off and rattle players. Yeah, you're so awesome winning your 4v2 match! Booyah!

    I believe it is precisely that taunting and bullying that makes many people so offended by the spawncamping. It's an arrogant display. To close in and win is one thing. To make a show of it is quite another. It goes along with the countless threads on people's opinion of the ethics of squidbagging. Ultimately I come back to the same conclusion I do in those threads, regardless of whether you take lewd comparison from it or not, the only purpose of it is to simply be a jerk. Some will justify it "oh I love getting in the mind of players and making them come after me" etc. It still doesn't circumvent the core point that they are being a jerk for the goal of being a jerk. Being a jerk makes them happy. The same issue applies for the showoff-spawncampers.

    A team "skilled" enough to hold a spawncamp can easily enough hold an iron defense AWAY from spawn. You are still ensuring victory. You are still denying them the map. You are simply doing it as a matter of practicality, not as a display and example. If you are a skilled team confident in your abilities, why would you fear losing to a team weak enough to get spawncamped to begin with? The policy you are advocating is, in the real world, called "total war." In "total war" doctrines, it is not acceptable to simply defeat the enemy, draft a cease fire or secession of hostilities, or force a surrender. The only acceptable outcome is the complete and utter decimation of the enemy to the very heart of their theater. While that policy has been successful in some situations, such as the U.S. Civil War, it is generally seen as a blight. It's an over the top example-making or retributional policy that extends beyond the actual purpose of the conflict in establishing control, halting an advance, or forcing a policy change. "Total war" policies brought into a for-fun exercise seems very contrarian.

    If nothing else one could argue the spawncampers could also learn more by trying to hold a forward middle position than holding spawn. Both sides could. Additionally if those who enact spawncamps are bothered by the "complainers" who get spawncamped, the result would be a win-win. The superior team should still win, if they are as superior as they claim. The inferior team will not feel "bullied" and "taunted" and will therefore have nothing to complain about having simply been beaten without a large demonstration for it. If the "superior" team is in fact only able to be "superior" if they can manage to corner their enemies boxed into a cage for 3 minutes and operate like a prison guard, then they may learn they're not as good a player as they thought they are, which would come in handy when playing genuinely high skill players (A common trait I have seen among spawncampers. They're tough players if someone on their team corners their enemy for them and they always know where they're coming from. They're often poor players when they actually have to fight in the open, such as against skilled opponents without a higher skilled teammate setting up the kills for them.) And the spawncamped team may learn enough from the more dynamic interaction to improve and beat you, which is your educational goal for them considering how interested you are in having the spawncamped learn from it, is it not?
     
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  6. Reila

    Reila Inkling Fleet Admiral

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    If it is not cheating, it is usually a valid tactic in my books. I try to avoid using strategies that robs the fun from other people in online games (...usually), but it is not something I can ask of others.
     
  7. NotAPerso

    NotAPerso Inkling Cadet

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    I'll state my opinion clearly so it is hopefully not misinterpreted.

    In video games weak players will always find a way to complain about something that consistently defeats them and always hold onto the argument of "it's not fun for me so it's not fair". Often something is pushed as a moral issue claiming it "honorable" to go easier on a weaker opponent because beating them makes the game "not fun". Rather than having a mindset of "I was outplayed and need to improve" these players demand others come down to their skill level out of self-proclaimed "fairness". This entitlement mentality of "I just want to have fun and other players beating me isn't fun so they should come down to my skill level" is absolutely ridiculous. These players refuse to recognize when they are bad at the game and would rather use complaints about opponents to push blame for their loss on others.

    These are the same players that claim they always get bad teams so they can't progress while completely refusing to accept they were part of the reason the team was bad and they didn't do their part to help their team win.

    It is not an opponent's job to go easy on a weak player, nor is it a teammate's job to carry a team to victory. No other player is required to play in a way that makes a game "fun" for a weaker player.
     
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  8. CoCo

    CoCo Inkling

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    I'll admit that I've been on both ends when it comes to spawncamping (SC) - although personally I think that it steals the fun from the SC side when such a situation arises. It's not fun for me because it's boring, simply put. Such a display of domination from the spawn camping team (STC) is a pretty predictable outcome and I tend to not join my teammates and just stay back (usually middle of the map) to keep a lookout on sneaky squids that were able to go on by unnoticed from the offensive.

    That being said however, the reason there is advocacy for such tactics is set forth brilliantly by Mr.L1193 so I'll refrain from reiterating. Where I believe the debate really stems from is how the losing team feels from SC or squidbagging as you also brought up. For the latter, if they are being jerks, you'd only let them succeed by feeling bullied or taunted. Their complacency with their actions can't be reprehensible simply because you feel that way. It's a game where only one team can win and a competition where it's not just about skill but also how one is psychologically prepared. Raging or feeling upset WILL affect how you play the game (that's why you see taunting in other activities such as sports to throw off your concentration and therefore increase the likelyhood of recklessness) and it's usually for the worst. You could even say that psychology within the game is an extension of skill.

    By all means, you are allowed to feel that SC is arrogant or unsportsmanlike and I'll be lying if I said I didn't feel that way when I first started playing Splatoon, but SC will hopefully force good players on the losing team to think instead of going head-first into the barrage. Below average players may see these squids using an alternate route, distraction methods or just do anything but engage the SCT. To summarize, SC shouldn't discourage players but instead be used as a tool for strategy. What breaks the bad habits of bad (or new) players is a good habit which I guess is what I'm trying to say. With all due respect, you can't control what others can do but you can attempt outplay them instead of taking their actions personally.
     
  9. Award

    Award Squid Savior From the Future

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    That's a fairly reasonable statement. I can't disagree TOO much with it. Though I'm almost detecting a helping of saltiness against bad players who complain about being beaten unfairly being the prevailing theme here rather than actually talking about spawncamping specifically at all!

    And the preface to the whole thing here is if players who are that bad are getting put in situations that they're completely spawncamped by being outplayed often, the onus is on Nintendo for failing to provide a proper matchmaking system that would yield a fun game for all skill levels, not so much on the players. Not everyone can or will be terribly good in a given game, and the game should be handling that reasonably, which I don't think anyone will disagree, this game often fails at doing. There's a lot of back and forth here that really lies in Nintendo's lap.

    The discussion here really isn't about people complaining about being spawn-camped so much as should you choose to spawncamp or not to spawncamp when that opportunity exists. I'm far from the only person on the forums who's answer is a solid "no, I do not." There are many ways you can defeat an opponent and box them into their base, keeping them out of mid. They are no more or less effective than holding the spawn point itself. Holding the spawn is just tongue wagging and ball spiking. I don't believe anybody has suggested "going easy" on an opponent or "letting them win". There's no time when I've been in a position to spawncamp where I haven't felt like I'm a complete jerk if I actually participate. I actually did participate during splatfest a round or two without even realizing I was doing it...I was playing around with some different weapons and got caught up on it. Felt like a jerk after. Why? Because it's completely unnecessary. We had mid, we had victory, we clearly were able to beat them as they emerged. Why make a taunt of it?

    Similarly being on the receiving end which has high probability after a disconnect, it's entirely unnecessary as well. The ones that hop around and pelt the shield specifically, parked right in front of the spawn point. There's no need. We were defeated anyway, it was just a taunt. But it's still different than being genuinely outplayed. I've lost plenty of games against some REALLY impressive opponents. Snipers that outsnipe me because they're better. Squadding I got thrown against some members of a clan high on the tournament ladder. I've never seen play like that before. Still we did not get spawncamped. We were massively outplayed. It doesn't induce the same kind of disgust, because they simply won by playing better...not taunting and flaunting it.

    Not knowing your playstyle I can't be certain that when one person hears "spawncamp" the envision the same circumstance as another. A spawncamp as I refer to it, is not merely blocking entry to mid out of the enemy base portion of the map. It's psychically operating as a prison guard in front of the spawn point. In most situations this includes the above mentioned hopping around the spawn shield, shooting at it, etc for the duration. There is no map, with the possible exception of Moray Towers, where doing that is a simple necessity for victory. It's a victory lap, instead. However, that might not be the situation you're referring to.
     
  10. BlackZero

    BlackZero Inkling Commander

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    Any moralistic judgments on spawn camping is entirely dependent on the person you ask. Some people have a chivalrous attitude who think it's horrible. Other's have a mean streak and love it. Sometimes people just get caught up in the moment and do it without really thinking about whether it's good or bad. Personally, I don't think spawn camping is good or bad: it simply is. I can understand people getting frustrated by it, but that's kinda like getting frustrated by a charger using their range advantage to kill you from a safe distance. It's part of the game, and a legitimate tactic. If I get spawn camped, I usually just hang out at my base until I see an opening. Otherwise, you are beating your head against the wall repeatedly and expecting the wall to move if you keep pounding away. As Einstein said, "insanity is doing the same thing over and over, and expecting a different result each time."
     
  11. MrL1193

    MrL1193 Inkling Cadet

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    @Award:

    You've certainly had a lot to say in response. However, I believe that most of it can be summed up thusly:

    "Spawn camping is unnecessary."

    I know that you continue on to talk about how this means that spawn camping is cruel, but that summary is the underlying sentiment that I would like to focus on.



    First of all, it is honestly baffling to me how you can possibly say this:

    It should be common sense that controlling 95% of the map is more advantageous than controlling 65% of it. It should be obvious that it is easier to deal with the enemies when they can only approach from one place than when they have multiple approach routes. It should go without saying that keeping the enemy far, far away from the contentious middle part of the map is better than holding them back just outside of it.

    In fact, even what you yourself have said acknowledges that spawn camping gives a team a more advantageous position!

    Here, you are trying to make out spawn camping to be some kind of unfair, underhanded tactic that lets bad players win matches they shouldn't. But I'm not going to go over what I've already covered--how spawn camping is actually a difficult feat that you have to earn. What is important is that in saying this, you're admitting that spawn camping is a beneficial tactic.

    And now that we've established that fact, your supposedly "noble" action of refusing to take an opportunity to spawn camp starts to take on a rather different character. Despite knowing that spawn camping would allow you to win more easily, you refuse to do it, telling yourself that you can win without it. I am not going to mince words here. That behavior is not noble; it is arrogant and disrespectful. Yes, that's right--in doing this, you are yourself guilty of being the very things you are accusing spawn campers of being.

    If you decline an opportunity to spawn camp because you believe you can win without it, you are deciding that the enemy team is not worthy of playing against you at your best.

    This kind of disrespect is different from squidbagging and other such overt behavior. You are not taunting your opponents; in fact, they will probably never know that you were being overconfident that match. However, on a personal, hidden level, you are, in fact, showing a lack of respect for your opponents. And I think that underlying arrogance has already shown itself a bit in a few of the statements you've made, such as this one:

    Again, you're declining the opportunity to spawn camp because you think that the other team is weak. You don't think they could possibly make a comeback, so you get complacent, lazily hanging back instead of pushing them back as far as possible. I'm telling you right now: You're setting yourself up for failure. One of these times, the enemy team is going to surprise you and turn the tables on you, and then you're going to feel like a fool for not taking advantage of the opportunities given to you.

    Oh, and before I go, there's one more minor point of yours that I'd like to address.

    If a team is making errors that are grave enough to allow their enemies to spawn camp them, I would think that they should focus on correcting those mistakes first. That is not going to happen if the enemy team doesn't punish them for those mistakes. To go easy on them is to leave those key errors uncorrected, and that most definitely will not help them to learn.



    [EDIT: Swapped out a word because the site's profanity filter is blind to context.]
     
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  12. birdiebee

    birdiebee Inkling Commander

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    My take on @Award 's argument is more along the lines of this:
    "Spawn camping is not conducive to fun." Wherein the implication is that victory takes a backseat to the thrill of a fun match (assuming Turf Wars)

    I may not have paid attention to every detail of these long posts, and I know we dipped in and out of the morality or ethics of spawn camping, but I'll just throw this out there:

    Ever lost a match but you had so much fun playing it that you hardly even noticed?
    Award is, I feel, mostly just arguing in favor of an eventful, unpredictable and exhilarating Splatoon experience, which spawn camping effectively cripples.

    I think this is spot on, and we are derailing a bit from the initial question posed by the topic. We've covered "is spawn camping moral?" "is spawn camping effective?" "for victory?" "for fun?" "is spawn camping skillful?" "is spawn camping cheap?" "is spawn camping arrogant/bullying?" "is NOT spawn camping arrogant?"

    To spawn camp or not to spawn camp? That is the question. The two primary angles to this answer are "Yes, I want to win!" and "No! I want to have fun!"

    But winning and having fun are not mutally exclusive. Winning IS fun, and fun does not necessitate winning. Since the two do not directly contradict one another, the argument is becoming very cyclical and I feel there is little more to say on the subject that has not already been addressed.
     
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  13. Quilavaflare

    Quilavaflare Senior Squid

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    My philosophy for anything moral in a video game is basically, "If it's not hacking, it's not cheating." So I feel that spawn camping is a legitimate strategy. If you're running to the enemy base and camping, good for you, but how much are you really accomplishing? That's your choice to make. If you've pushed the lines back and your whole team is camping, well then you kind of deserve to camp because that means you've severely outplayed the other team to get that far. And if you're getting camped because of a disconnect, then there's no reason to be mad. The loss was beyond your control. (And I usually just start messing around and having fun if that's the case, since there's no point in being salty about it.) Besides all of that however, I can't bring myself to see spawn camping as mean or bad in any way. It's just instinctual. If you're in a Turf War and you've pushed them all the way back to spawn, what else are you going to do? Just let them go by, say, "Sure buddy, no problem. You go ahead and ink all of my turf and have your whole team jump to you while you're at it." Probably not, at least not most people.
     
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  14. BlackZero

    BlackZero Inkling Commander

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    Pretty much. Your goal is to beat the other team. If someone chooses to give the other team every opportunity, that's entirely up to them. They can't impose their self-inflicted handicaps on other players who simply want to win the match regardless of how "honorable" that win is. If you aren't breaking actual rules of the game (hacking), everything else is fair game.
     
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  15. Award

    Award Squid Savior From the Future

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    Overall, unlike some viewpoints on the topic that are purely spiteful against perceived complaining about their wins, and/or defense of dominant behavior, your posts at least focus on tactics and gameplay elements, so you're definitely focusing on it from a better perspective than some people. I like that! However I do take exception to the levels of spin worthy of professional politics in some of these specific points which I'll address below.

    But I reiterate it is indeed unnecessary. You seem to be sticking to the argument that if you don't box the enemy into the bubble shield of their spawnpoint, they are ferocious villains who will steal your victory. It's not enough to beat them, but they must be immobilized too! Atop that, you're talking about Turf War, for which there are absolutely no stakes whatsoever. This bloodthirst for victory, and mitigating even the most outside risk of defeat from the most surprise comeback from opponents somewhat validates the people who complain about it. It's not a simple defeat, it's defeat at the hands of an all too serious, win at all costs, victory is life and death mentality opponent. Who WOULD want to play a friendly game of Turf War with someone like that? I could be a little more understanding of that position if we were talking about ranked, when points are on the line, but, then, as we already discussed, it's a strategy that is a lot less likely to work in ranked, because you're a lot less likely to be facing opponents so below you in skill they can't fight back, and because the objectives prevent it. In most cases, against a team that CAN be spawncamped, it is indeed unnecessary to win. And in TW, winning itself is unnecessary as there is nothing but an ego stroking gained from it. It is simply unnecessary.

    No, I'm saying it can be a beneficial tactic when a generally underperforming player determines they can manage to defeat opponents more easily at or below their own actual ability by effectively cheaply exploiting the unskilled/unsuspecting. It is not a tactic that demonstrates any real skill on their part, and it is not a tactic that will be in any way beneficial for them against opponents who are skilled at fighting back. I doubt anyone here will claim spawncamping can carry you to the S's. Or even the A's. It's questionable you could even get to B+ on it, honestly. It is something you use against weak opponents, and specifically something you use against opponents that are inaccurate shots. Against opponents that can shoot well, or for the higher tiers, someone who can shoot as well as yourself, it's not going to work so well. I'm also saying this tactic tends to ONLY work for them if their team consists of another player that IS a more skilled player than the rest of the lobby, including themselves whom they can rely on as a crutch to box in the better players or set up the situation to begin with. It's "cheap" because it is not achieved through their skill, it relies on someone ELSE'S skill.

    Spawncamping is not "difficult" or "earned" in most cases, which is the point. The "difficult" or "earned" spawncamps aren't spawncamps, those are just the ones where natural progression and map control lead to the spawn by the end. Most spawncamps are "easy" because one team massively outmatched the other, or the camper was set up by a teammate that massively outmatched the other. It's "difficult" because against most opponents it won't work, and therefore doesn't happen most rounds for those that favor spawncamping. For the type of spawncamp where a player comes guns blazing into the base early on, it's a tactic involving sacrificial "testing" of the enemy. A gambit to see if it will work or not. They rush in. If they outgun the enemy they occupy the spawn, if they don't they know it won't work. They spawncamp only if the enemy is weak enough to be victim to it. That's not a difficult victory. It's "difficult" if the probing proves it will not work and then the battle must be fought conventionally.


    Going back to the nature of spawncamping and the nature that it only works against a weaker opponent to begin with, it's not "arrogance and disrespect" to determine that an opponent that was able to be spawncamped is indeed the weaker team, and victory should be possible with or without spawncamping. It's an understanding that the matchmaker throws teams together that are not always balanced, and this is one of those times. Holding the enemy into their spawn denies them the opportunity of playing against you at your best. It holds them fixed into a predictable position with only pre-determined means of escape, denies them map strategy and the element of surprise, and denies them the ability to use their weapon's optimum range. It is you taking an early lead against them whether by superior overall shooting ability or through the element of surprise, and denying them any attempt at facing you a second time. If you're so afraid of their potential for comeback that you feel you need to box them in in order to win then that can't be changed, but convincing yourself that you're letting them play against you at your best as you stand 8 feet away from their guaranteed point of spawn isn't respectful of anyone. If you want them to play you at your best, take a defensive position in mid, or even better in your own base, and see if they can rout you. There's a test of their skill.

    To spin hopping around pelting your opponents spawn shield as a sign of respect and humility is a pretty bold extreme. Even among others that defend the practice, this is the first I've heard a declaration that doing so is a sign of respect!

    If you like exhibiting displays of dominance, no one can stop you. But trying to couch it behind statements that your actions that some have voiced offense to are the noble ones, and the actions no one voices offense to are ignoble takes the cake. Your prior statements in your previous post absolutely had serious merit to them on the virtues of spawncamping, but this places those statements in a very different far less favorable light.

    If we were discussing real military strategies for real world warfare, I would more than likely entirely agree with the majority of your assertions! The goal is to rout the enemy as quickly and efficiently as possible with whatever collateral damage that accrues. This is not real world warfare, and no populace or philosophy is on the verge of eradication or subjugation. It's an unranked game of what amounts to vitual paintball in what is supposed to be a friendly competition!

    Good for them! Your concepts are toggling back and forth between "the enemy needs to get better and learn not to make mistakes" and "the enemy must be routed and denied any and all chance to win!" Which do you want? Victory at all costs an an unscored game, or the edification of players less skilled than you? It's a passive-aggressive stance between two incompatible goals. As you pointed out, in ranked, the "camp" only lasts briefly and ends in a knockout - there is no comeback. There are comebacks in ranked of course, but not in the context of spawncamps. So again, we're talking Turf War. What possible reason to feel foolish is there for losing an irrelevant game from a surprise comeback from opponents you thought wouldn't? That's something you congratulate them on, not feel foolish for.

    People complain about spawncampers due to the arrogant display, and the appearance that these people are taking the game far too seriously. Much of this discussion is lending credence to those complaints. Spawncampers ARE taking the game far too seriously which is very much why the sense of fun is removed by them.

    So indeed, the spawn camp is to PUNISH them for their errors? It's a form of judgement, then? A display to make example of them for their failure? Their place is to be punished, yours is to administer the punishment as their superior? The strong must punish the weak! And they can learn, while being pelted on their spawn, what errors they made in other parts of the map by ineffective use of cover or failure to effectively flank?

    Exactly this. There have been many losses where I was grinning the whole time. Outsniped by a better sniper, surprised by an ever unpredictable brush, roller, or sploosh from the strangest places. Those were fun losses, because I remained surprised the whole time. There was lots of competition, lots of opportunities, but I was creatively outplayed. Spawncamping is trying to shoot fish in a barrel while the fish try to shoot back. Spawncampers that know their weapon range better than their opponents will win. Spawncamped that know their weapon range better than their captors might win. Usually they just shoot at each other and the splatted spawncampers just superjump back. there's no game there. Like I said earlier in the thread, if the base quarter of the map denied superjumping, I'm not sure I would object to spawncamping so much. It would give a much more practical and competitive chance to break the camp. It's the idea that if you can't get all 4 it doesn't matter if you get 1 that makes it so anti-competitive and denies any practical chance of a comeback from an opponent that's not overtly superior (or lucky.)
     
    #75 Award, Mar 3, 2016
    Last edited: Mar 3, 2016
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  16. MrL1193

    MrL1193 Inkling Cadet

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    Again, you are giving too little credit to your opponents. A comeback is always possible. Even a spawn camp does not guarantee victory; it increases one's odds of winning, but it does not automatically spell the end of the match. And yet you still insist on counting your chickens before they hatch.

    I'm honestly flabbergasted that you would go so far as to say that you don't think winning is a worthwhile goal. It's a game. The whole point is to cooperate with your teammates and compete with the opposing team in order to win. In a multiplayer game like this, the competitive aspect is key. There's no fun in winning if the opponent just lets you do so, and if the opponent is going easy on you, that also takes some of the gratification out of winning.

    You are still treating spawn camping as some sort of separate tactic that does not come up as part of normal play. That is not the case. If the entire enemy team was just wiped, naturally, I am going to push forward. If the enemy team is distracted and I see an opportunity to infiltrate their base, then naturally, I will do so. And if such maneuvers happen to lead to gaining control of the area in front of the enemy's spawn point, then naturally, I will do what I can to maintain that control. This is all a completely natural part of the game; it is merely a matter of doing as much as the enemy team will let you get away with. I would assume that you would not find yourself in a moral dilemma every time you see an opportunity to take control of enemy turf or to splat enemies, but if that were actually the case, I would sincerely have to wonder how you could even play this game at all.

    I'll humor you for a moment. Let's say that a spawn camp is achieved through the efforts of just one player, and that the rest of his team is of comparatively low caliber. In that case, would you say that the lone skilled player who achieved the spawn camp deserves to be rewarded for single-handedly driving back the enemy team? I certainly would say so. But in that case, what do you think the skilled player would want his teammates to do? Hang back and squid party while he continuously risks his life to keep the enemy team boxed into their base? Perhaps if he were an extremely proud player who wanted all the glory to himself, but most players would not be like that. No, they would want their teammates to come forward and help them keep the spawn camp going. In that case, those teammates would not have "earned" the spawn camp, but as teammates of the player who did, they would still be obligated to help maintain the control that he fought so hard to earn. If they refused to help keep the spawn camp going, that would only make them even less worthy of their eventual victory (assuming that the lone skilled player could, in fact, single-handedly win the match for them).

    Here you are just repeating what you've already said. Thus, if you want my rebuttal, you may also go back and reread what I said earlier.

    You are still making that same overconfident assumption that the enemy team is no threat to you.

    You are free to add your own self-imposed challenges to the game if you wish. However, you are not in a position to pass moral judgment on people for not following your own personal rules.

    NotAPerso has already addressed this quite nicely:

    I never said anything about spinning, hopping, squid bagging, or any other such behavior. That is taunting, and that is a different thing altogether.

    The rest of that little diatribe doesn't seem to be inviting a response, so I will move on.

    Again, you attack players for, of all things, trying to win. And again, this is an echo of what you've said earlier, so I will let my earlier rebuttal suffice.

    It is not incompatible if you realize that every loss is an opportunity to learn from your mistakes. It is only because you are so intent on decrying spawn camping as a thoroughly detestable practice with no redeeming qualities that you are missing this connection. (A bit of a pity, really, because it also suggests that you are not learning anything from your own losses.)

    The concept of learning from mistakes applies equally to both the enemy team and to you. If you throw away what should have been an easy victory because you were overconfident, then I would certainly hope that you would feel ashamed of that overconfidence and learn not to let your guard down in the future. But considering the fact that you are again expressing the sentiment that winning (or indeed, even trying to win) is not important to you, it would seem that you are content to repeat your mistakes.

    And yet again you repeat yourself.

    That's quite a leap you made to get from "correction" to "making an example of them," don't you think? Surely you don't think that when your teacher marks you wrong on a test, it's to "make an example of you"? The pinpointing of the error and the negative consequence for it are a natural part of the learning process. And it is only natural that if an error is more costly to you, you will make more of an effort to correct it.





    Again, I assert that you are being overconfident when you say that spawn camping is "unnecessary," and that it is not a cheap tactic but, rather, an advantageous position that has to be earned through good play. I also reject your implied claim that players who help keep a spawn camp going after it is established by their teammate are being "cheap"; they are merely doing their duty as teammates of the player who did earn them the spawn camp. And finally, I reject your implication that playing to win tends to ruin the fun of the game, as competition is a necessary component of fun in a multiplayer game like this one.

    If you wish to blame the matchmaking for making many spawn camps possible, you may do so. But do not blame the players for trying to win.
     
  17. TacosConCarne

    TacosConCarne Inkster Jr.

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    TacosConCarne
    i dont like spawn camping since it removes fun from both sides
    but thats what happens when some players are that much better than others
    ideally to counteract spawn camping you as a team take out everyone camping you but its hard cause of the skill gap
    at that point just stay in your base and charge your special, or just keep racking up covered turf
    if you dont wanna bother you can give up i guess, but you can always gain something from a match
    playing turf you can rack up more cash even if you dont get the 300 win bonus
    playing ranked you can get practice against strong opponents
     
  18. CoCo

    CoCo Inkling

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    If you scroll up to about 60% of the page (or go back a page, idk where I'll be once this gets posted) you'd notice I threw my two cents to this whole thing too.

    WOW DID I GET ONE UPPED

    I actually took the time to read those couple of novels and they were too much!

    I couldn't take it! Got out of the kitchen cuss I couldn't take the heat? Like it was SO HAWT! I WAS ON FIRE!!

    I'm sorry
     
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  19. Award

    Award Squid Savior From the Future

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    I read your post! :) The first paragraph is pretty much my philosophy as well, the second parts I agree and disagree with aspects of it. But some of the more contradictory and extreme spin points of @MrL1193 I couldn't let go without comment. Sorry for not replying!

    Never did I say winning isn't a worthwhile goal. I said it's unnecessary in an unranked mode in a video game, not that it's not desirable. Nor did I ever say you should let your opponent win or "go easy on them." I fact I specifically said to play competitively and fiercely.

    I've said several times that I'm specifically not talking about a spawncamp that results from normal play but rather the deliberate tactic of setting out to hold a spawncamp, which is what the OP started the topic discussing. If you are talking about spawncamps that result from natural play where mid presses all the way to spawn, then we're talking about two different situations.

    Well first we'll back up a bit. If such an exceptional player was mixed with teammates that are unskilled and opponents that are so unskilled that one strong enemy should spawncamp them, the flaw indeed lies in the game that created that match to begin with. It shouldn't be existing form the start (I'm not saying it doesn't but it's a flaw in the game no matter how you slice it.) Your example is so extreme (not to say it's not a real example in this game, sadly it is), that if there was SUCH a mismatch that one single player could box in the entire enemy team to a spawn point at any point it was a game so absurd from the start, that no matter what happens its a joke. In that situation, is ANY player except maybe Mr. Hero (if his spawncamp succeeds) having any fun at all? So the team joins in the spawncamp and succeeds in crushing opponents so bad (so long as they're right in front of them) that one player boxed them in all alone?

    Again we're coming back to exploiting map designs which don't even apply to all maps in the game, which have a serious flaw in allowing this to happen anyway. The original 5 maps are mostly the worst offenders, though Ancho-V and Piranha have a few unfortunate flaws that make it too possible as well, albeit to a lesser extreme as some others. Triggerfish is a wonderful example where this can not happen at all. The spawn is elevated where invaders in that narrow hall can be attacked. In most ranked modes theres an elevated bridge to the right gates (not in TW), and there's the upper/lower left path, and the various wall exists that present plenty of opportunities for escape. Arowanna on the other hand has flat ground directly in front of spawn to camp in. Similarly with skatepark and that campable drop in Walleye these are maps one can truly camp. You may be talking about wider strategies and not considering the specific exploitable spawncamp situations.

    This is a thread specifically asking the question "should I." It's specifically a thread on the ethics of spawncamping. The OP did not ask "can I gain an advantageous position by doing this." The OP itself stated a belief that that was true.

    But that's what the spawncamp is. Not so much the squidbagging though that does happen. The hopping and shield pelting however, and sometimes the squidbagging is all that accompanies the spawncamp in most cases. You've stated precisely my point. IT IS TAUNTING. It is showboating and a disgusting display of arrogance. It allows no attempt at pay nor an attempt at a comeback. It is literally shooting fish in a barrel.

    There are some maps, specifically Ancho-V where a spawncamp is possible without permitting the shield pelting hopping antics as the spawn is elevated and there is at least one viable escape route (that's too predictable and easy to keep a guard for to close the spawn and prevent escape, but at least it's merely frustrating rather than supporting taunts.) The only flaws in that map is the wall in front of spawn that allows campers to stay too safe, and leaving the left escape path (only available in TW anyway) too visible as you pass by the camp site. I'd like to see one of those uninkable crates added behind that wall area which would fix the main issue of that map.

    But the classic spawncamp, the one not derrived from natural play, either one super player sets up the camp, or one sneaky so-so player sets up the camp while the super player was keeping the opponents busy in normal play. In the former they'll visibly/aggressively take out everyone as they respawn, in the latter they'll steailthily do it. However once the team is corralled at spawn and the bulk of the enemy team joins in the guarding, that's when the hopping and shield pelting taunts begin. And this is precisely what has made spawncamping such a controversy. It is very specifically a display.

    You're not the first person to claim that being spawncamped teaches players not to make the same error - but it teaches nothing other than "you lose, I win." An hour on Squidboards would teach them more of what they did wrong than being spawncamed where the only thing they'll ever see is the glow of their shield. If their mistake was made at mid, being penned into spawn isn't going to clue them into that. And mistakes don't end in spawncamps. Being massively outmatched by a team majority does.

    Perhaps a better way to state it is that the possibility for loss is an acceptable risk in contrast to an anti-competitive manner of gameplay, and especially so in a game and mode for which there are zero stakes.
     
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  20. Vitezen

    Vitezen Inkling Cadet

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    @Award Whether the mode is ranked or not, I would be really disappointed to join a team with a player that didn't consider winning the goal. If I want to play purely to screw around, I will find a group of people to do that. Solo queue is not the place for that.

    If you aren't spawncamping when you have the opportunity, you're being a detriment to my team's chances of winning. The only time I let up, or would be okay with my team doing so, would be in a situation where the enemy is a team of complete noobs. And I mean people that can barely control their character. And in that case, I'm moving from "no spawncamping" to "no directly shooting at the player" levels of lenience. It's not even a match anymore. It's, like I said, screwing around.
     
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