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There's a lot of ways to remove people from their positions though. For example Ink Storm does that, but better IMO. It's true, it's not a use-it-as-soon-as-you-get-it kinda special. But that only means you're gonna have less Special uses in a match.
I'm comparing it with the Tenta Missles because the purpose of that special is also mostly to disrupt. Which, like I said I think the Tenta Missles do way better.
The problem is that it's just so limited in what it can do. It's too slow and narrow to block off passages. It's too slow and weak to just whip around to create chaos. You can track an opponent with it, but then that's the only thing you're doing for a few seconds and it doesn't guarantee anything good will come out of it. Again, it might be useful for Tower/Rainmaker, but in other modes, people rarely flock to one place, and if they do, they sure don't stay there.
It's hard to master, but easy to dodge. And if you didn't manage to do anything with it, you just wasted 8 seconds of playtime.
The think grnwaffles point is that it's only easy to dodge if the person using it sucks with it, while it's an inescapable X-Ray of doom when the person using it doesn't suck with it. I for one suck with it....but I've been on the other end of the barrel of those that don't ;)
@Minukel
Another thing is it serves to disrupt but it can also lockdown a whole area of the map for long periods of time.
Clam blitz being a prime example of this, 1 stingray can make it impossible for a team to get a good angle to counter push from.
Plus stingray and bubbler is a very dangerous combo in most any mode since this allows for an aggresive sustained push into enemy turf.
I did notice a mini update notice yesterday, might be a patch to some unexpected glitches that have come about due to this patch. (Actually we are in 2.1.1)
Just recently had a mess with the 52 Deco and I love it. Curling Bombs do so much more for it than Point Sensors ever did, the whole reason the og 52 Deco was so fun came down to the Seeker and the ability to paint a path, follow, pop out and kill people in your effective range, then use it to escape. The curlers do that and more thanks to their bounces and non-lock on target style. I feel like Sting Ray is a much better fit on the 52 too just because Baller usually gets the 52 stuck in undesirable locations after the explosion, typically resulting in the 52 being killed. The added mobility is a great advantage, so even if you are a Sting Ray hater the main and sub have more synergy than a "I used 60% of my ink to mark you for 6 seconds" where you can't even act on the marking because most people run weapons that destroy 52 when they go seek out their marked target.
Sting Ray is not a bad special, if you don't get good results with it or don't like it, don't use it. In Splatoon 2 most of the time specials don't win matches, they help, but it ultimately boils down to team co-ordination rather than Splatoon 1's "lololololol Inkzooka + Kraken team wipe push". Inkjet and Bomb Launcher (and Tenta Missiles) are the worst specials in the game as of right now in my opinion. Inkjet is very vulnerable now with too much aim required to make the payoff worth it (imagine if you were told the Tentatek would not be a meta weapon in the sequel when Splatoon 1 was still being updated) and Bomb Launcher does create chaos, but it's not the same aggressive chaos as bomb rush in the original. Bubble Blower is being used as a defensive push tactic to keep people alive and make it pseudo Ink Armor, and it can be deadly with the explosions. Splashdown is always going to have uses, Baller is still a decent choice but not dominating anymore, Ink Storm gives very rapid tick damage and is good for clearing space and Ink Armor will forever be good cheese for kills.
Sting Ray is great for long distance harassing, this can be easily argued against due to the meta of N-ZAPs, Ink Armor, Sploosh and the like making long range unviable, but if you see the right opportunities you can use it from afar when your teammates are pushing up in Splat Zones, Tower and Clam Blitz to contribute tick damage and finish off the enemy quicker (or avenge a teammate if they're barely alive). Sting Ray forces more movement to stay alive than Tenta Missiles. It deals damage very quickly (look at the numbers in the testing range), it has a Killer Wail-style AoE and if you use it correctly you can easily get 2 kills (or assists) every time you use it. Tenta Missiles only works as a punisher for bad positioning. 90% of Tenta Missile attacks do absolutely nothing aside from mildly harass the enemy. If they are all in bad positions triple kills are common, and occasionally push them into your team, but most people don't do that. I'd be more embarrassed if I died to Tenta Missiles than a Sting Ray, and I usually only die if a teammate has been attacked and I can't see the landing positions.
Ultimately you can win matches without ever using your specials, so you might as well argue they're all useless. To each their own, but constantly saying "this weapon is bad because x special" is wrong and just a tired argument now. People put too much stock in a weapon's worth based on the special, and it is true to an extent, but Splatoon 1 was the game for that. All the specials can be used well and are just as good as each other in Splatoon 2 (excluding Inkjet and Tenta Missiles, almost no-one uses those), but ultimately I believe the synergy between the sub and the main is way more important, you do more fighting and tactical movement based on the sub you have, and point sensors aren't useful, which is why I believe the 52 Deco to be the superior 52. I even have a few clips from Clam Blitz where I did some silly things with Curling Bombs:
This last clip was the match to get me to S+ in Clam Blitz and only had 1 player on my team use any specials:
The think grnwaffles point is that it's only easy to dodge if the person using it sucks with it, while it's an inescapable X-Ray of doom when the person using it doesn't suck with it. I for one suck with it....but I've been on the other end of the barrel of those that don't ;)
Well, in that case it's clear. Everyone sucks with it.
Maybe in theory you can 'lock down' areas with it, or harrass someone from a distance, but in practice these things never work out. It's not strong enough to block off areas, it's too slow to harrass people with. It doesn't work for me, or for people I'm playing with. It's true that the Tentamissles don't kill a lot, but you use them in tandem with your main or your teammates. Hell, it helps you track people a little bit, and does that arguably better than the Sting Ray's thermal ink crap. The Missles take up about 2 secs of your time, whereas the Sting Ray I really wish I could cancel out of it most of the time.
I get that specials were nerfed from S1 to S2, but there's really no excuse for how hard the Sting Ray stinks or the Bubble Blower blows.
And even if there were people competent with the Sting Ray, the fact that I've encountered them only a handful of times in ~300h of playtime is still a bad sign. The rare useful Sting Ray doesn't excuse all the other times it amounts to nothing.
Meh, I won't hop aboard the Sting Ray love train... because I'm a friggin conductor, woot woot squiches, all aboard!
But I've had a bias towards it since the game dropped almost a year ago. Mainly because I when I gravitated to the vanilla splat charger and heavy splatling necessity taught me to use the sting ray more dynamically than along the lines of base expectations. Same with Bubble Blower, whose usage caught on due to Clam Blitz and especially how difficult it is/was to counter (pre-recent nerf).
Also, sting ray + bubble blower is OTP marvelous! And not just in Clam Blitz. Especially if you have multiple bubble blowers activated then use a single sting ray to ignite it all.
Well, in that case it's clear. Everyone sucks with it.
Maybe in theory you can 'lock down' areas with it, or harrass someone from a distance, but in practice these things never work out. It's not strong enough to block off areas, it's too slow to harrass people with. It doesn't work for me, or for people I'm playing with. It's true that the Tentamissles don't kill a lot, but you use them in tandem with your main or your teammates. Hell, it helps you track people a little bit, and does that arguably better than the Sting Ray's thermal ink crap. The Missles take up about 2 secs of your time, whereas the Sting Ray I really wish I could cancel out of it most of the time.
I get that specials were nerfed from S1 to S2, but there's really no excuse for how hard the Sting Ray stinks or the Bubble Blower blows.
And even if there were people competent with the Sting Ray, the fact that I've encountered them only a handful of times in ~300h of playtime is still a bad sign. The rare useful Sting Ray doesn't excuse all the other times it amounts to nothing.
BOI.....
Bubble blower is one of the most overpowered special in high ranks, especially on the forge pro, since you can toss 1 then use the suction bomb to get it to max shield, it is one of the best defensive specials and considerably better than splash walls which received a nerf in the transition from splatoon 1 with the intro of object shredder.
Plus these things used to last for the longest time before the nerf if you didn't have object shredder.
Again though I agree partially with @Cyan 's point special don't have as much of an impact on whether or not a weapon is meta, for goodness sake on of the top meta weapons to date is the sloshing machine, which has stingray as it's special.
However where I disagree is the synergy between the sub and special I feel does have a considerable impact on how good a weapon will be
For example the splatroller would be considerably less useful if it had it's beta sets, likewise the splattershot with tentamissles I feel would have been considerably less popular in meta.
All in all, deciding a weapon placement based off that is simply worn and tired, how about we talk about what changes we would like to see, or what weapons combos we want to see in game, maybe what gear or hair design we would like to be added. Heck I will even take what stage gimmicks we would like to see, new modes we want to see added, or if octolings will be in game
Stingray is still one of the best specials in-game, even after a handful of indirect nerfs. It's not the easiest thing to use, but with a bit of practice you can easily slay or push back whoever you want. It becomes downright stupid on RM, where you can completely stop the RM from across the map.
One thing that a lot of people forget is that people shot by it still show up on map. Basically once you hear taps, open map and see what direction they go and follow suit for a free kill.
Another 'fun' thing is that it completely blocks overtime on TC, just fire at the tower and nobody will be able to sit on it anymore. You're basically granted a free win, or if you're on the other team, free salt.
Again though I agree partially with @Cyan 's point special don't have as much of an impact on whether or not a weapon is meta, for goodness sake on of the top meta weapons to date is the sloshing machine, which has stingray as it's special.
I disagree, that's exactly the reason why the Forge Pro and N-Zap '85 are meta kings at the moment, people finally figured out Bubbles because of Clam Blitz and Ink Armor is Ink Armor. There's a reason why the '85 is rampant, going as far as having 2 of them in a team comp, while the '89 is barely even used-- Tenta Missles are a bit underwhelming when compared to Ink Armor.
I think Armor is still the best special in the game by far, despite all the nerfs, and people are exploiting it really hard.
Though it is true that the main weapon itself does play a role, if one becomes ''meta'' as people say, that's just because people pick the one that requires the least amount of effort for the most rewards. The N-Zap '85 came out on top because the other Armor weapons right now are unreliable, like the Gold Dynamo or the Splattershot Jr, thought the Jr. can paint, it doesn't hold up all that well in a fight. The .96 Gal is okay for combat, but it doesn't spam Ink Armor that well because it is very slow and it isn't that great at painting, (despite the Sprinkler) The Tri-Slosher fell out mostly because it isn't the overpowered monster that it once was (''It-got-nerfed-so-it's-useless-now'' mentality which really sucks), and the Squiffer requires you to have really good aim and a lot of game sense to be good with it. Also it's a Charger so it doesn't paint, no paint = no Ink Armor...
With all that in mind, we're left with the N-Zap, which can hold it's own relatively well in a fight and it paints the map really well. Which helps out getting the most Ink Armors out as possible
That's why we don't see other Bubbler Blower weapons like the Heavy Deco, Custom E-Liter or Tenta Brella, You need to put more effort to be efficient with Heavy Deco (and Splash Walls are a dealbreaker for some people), and an ungodly amount of dedication to be good with E-Liter and Tenta Brella. So people fell back on the Forge Pro, which is a very realiable weapon and it is the one that has the best control of its Bubbles thanks to the Suction Bomb.
There's a lot of ways to remove people from their positions though. For example Ink Storm does that, but better IMO. It's true, it's not a use-it-as-soon-as-you-get-it kinda special. But that only means you're gonna have less Special uses in a match.
I'm comparing it with the Tenta Missles because the purpose of that special is also mostly to disrupt. Which, like I said I think the Tenta Missles do way better.
The problem is that it's just so limited in what it can do. It's too slow and narrow to block off passages. It's too slow and weak to just whip around to create chaos. You can track an opponent with it, but then that's the only thing you're doing for a few seconds and it doesn't guarantee anything good will come out of it. Again, it might be useful for Tower/Rainmaker, but in other modes, people rarely flock to one place, and if they do, they sure don't stay there.
It's hard to master, but easy to dodge. And if you didn't manage to do anything with it, you just wasted 8 seconds of playtime.
We're gonna have to agree to disagree then because imo stingray is so much more useful than tenta missiles, and even if you don't kill anyone with the stingray (something that still never happens with missiles) you still dispersed people or a person from their spot forcing them into an unwanted situation. Handling the stingray is pretty easy to get a hang of but once you learn when to use it (not just when you get it and nothing is happening) it does its job a lot better. If people thought tenta missiles were better than stingray, then people wouldn't be using sloshing machines, rather a mini or N-Zap 89. But they don't. If you think you can do more with missiles then go ahead but a lot of people would disagree with you there.
We're gonna have to agree to disagree then because imo stingray is so much more useful than tenta missiles, and even if you don't kill anyone with the stingray (something that still never happens with missiles) you still dispersed people or a person from their spot forcing them into an unwanted situation. Handling the stingray is pretty easy to get a hang of but once you learn when to use it (not just when you get it and nothing is happening) it does its job a lot better. If people thought tenta missiles were better than stingray, then people wouldn't be using sloshing machines, rather a mini or N-Zap 89. But they don't. If you think you can do more with missiles then go ahead but a lot of people would disagree with you there.
I don't necessarily disagree with you, but I get plenty of kills using missiles. If you get all four in your sights, especially when they are all close together, you can wreak havoc against the other team with them. That's why I love the 89 so much
We're gonna have to agree to disagree then because imo stingray is so much more useful than tenta missiles, and even if you don't kill anyone with the stingray (something that still never happens with missiles) you still dispersed people or a person from their spot forcing them into an unwanted situation. Handling the stingray is pretty easy to get a hang of but once you learn when to use it (not just when you get it and nothing is happening) it does its job a lot better. If people thought tenta missiles were better than stingray, then people wouldn't be using sloshing machines, rather a mini or N-Zap 89. But they don't. If you think you can do more with missiles then go ahead but a lot of people would disagree with you there.
People use the Sloshing Machine because it's the Sloshing Machine. That's a completely different main weapon than the Mini or the Zapper. That's why *I* use it, and you already know I hate the Sting Ray.
As for Missles. No, the missles themselves don't kill, but they enable some very easy kills. Of course, the more people you targeted the more likely it's going to have effect, but often you can get at least 3. Again, maybe the Sting Ray is fine in 'competitive' circles, but in random Turf War/Splat Zones, nothing happens. And 'removing' a player from its position isn't good enough usage of a special IMO. It needs to be able to do more than that, and the Sting Ray is just too easy to get around to do that. I'm glad that it exists in Salmon Run, at least.
Same goes for Bubble Blower. It does nothing in Turf War. I can see it being good in like Clam Blitz or something, sure. But it's not universally useful, at the least. The bubbles don't kill me. They don't make be stay away (since it's always painfully obvious when they're gonna pop). They don't make me 'distracted' by trying to pop the bubbles. They don't do carp.
But again, if people DO find some use out of them, good for them. But I'd argue that if the vast majority of Sting Ray/Bubble Blower uses are wastes of time, there's still something wrong with them.
@Goolloom Actually, the Squiffer is pretty easy to handle if you never play other Chargers (beside the Bamboozler). It charges quickly so it's not too bad if you screw up a shot, and since you're up close more you don't have to be that good at quick aiming. I also tend to get at least 800-900pts with it, so it actually isn't too bad for getting Ink Armor. Zapper IS still better in that regard of course.
Though it is true that the main weapon itself does play a role, if one becomes ''meta'' as people say, that's just because people pick the one that requires the least amount of effort for the most rewards.
I pick the weird fights but honestly I disagree with that to a large extent. I think weapons become meta mostly because internet people said it's the bestest! People largely just follow what the internet tells them and accept it as numeric reality. If we started legit promoting 4k, Flingza, and silver Dynamo as the bestest and convinced Dude to join our little conspiracy, I guarantee you that would be the new meta. :P
I pick the weird fights but honestly I disagree with that to a large extent. I think weapons become meta mostly because internet people said it's the bestest! People largely just follow what the internet tells them and accept it as numeric reality. If we started legit promoting 4k, Flingza, and silver Dynamo as the bestest and convinced Dude to join our little conspiracy, I guarantee you that would be the new meta. :p
Aaah yeah, you bring that up but that is a good point, I think it would be possible if Dude or someone like him would be to make a tier list and put all the ''bad'' weapons on top, I wouldn't be surprised if people started to use them more (though people would probably question it, there are a lot of people who just mindlessly follow whatever is meta...). I mean that IS part of the reason why people started using the Bubbles and N-Zap a lot, haha
Aaah yeah, you bring that up but that is a good point, I think it would be possible if Dude or someone like him would be to make a tier list and put all the ''bad'' weapons on top, I wouldn't be surprised if people started to use them more (though people would probably question it, there are a lot of people who just mindlessly follow whatever is meta...). I mean that IS part of the reason why people started using the Bubbles and N-Zap a lot, haha
Honestly I've gotten real sick of everyone just following the meta and everyone using the forge pro. Just because of clam blitz and the pro buff that happened several patches earlier. It was all because DUDE said it'd be good n clam blitz.
I think weapons become meta mostly because internet people said it's the bestest! People largely just follow what the internet tells them and accept it as numeric reality. If we started legit promoting 4k, Flingza, and silver Dynamo as the bestest and convinced Dude to join our little conspiracy, I guarantee you that would be the new meta. :p
Unfortunately no, this isn't how it happens. Players promoting "meta" weapons by themselves isn't going to work. It's the results that these weapons pull in that enforce their positions. It's honestly whatever weapons people dominate with in tournament settings. So it would be difficult to promote those weapons by just saying they're good. And like @Goolloom said, a lot of these are just what's easiest to use and be successful with. Like the aerospray RG 1.3.0 meta. It was the best at spamming baller, and it was the easiest to get baller with. Even though the L-3 had more combat capabilities / could spam ballers almost as well. It required more skill / effort, so it wasn't used nearly as much.
And yes, the meta is directed by these top players, so some mindless sheep might fall for that prank. But a lot of people aren't stupid and see what's strong right now through other teams or by playing / testing the mechanic out themselves. So I don't think it would be this wide spread, with all the N-Zaps and Forge Pros walking about.
"Nintendo can you just nerf them already? I'm sick of double N-Zap."
It's not that gamers lack imagination, not precisely... it's more that their imaginations tend to all run in the same direction at the same time until prompted to change by something big, Dude in this case.
Fact is that if a player doesn’t have success with a weapon, that player will probably stop using that weapon. For a large portion of the playing population, that means players will naturally funnel to what others have described as the best easy to use weapon.
For competitive players who do pay attention to pros, they might pick what worked best in tournaments. That’s a small segment, but it too can trickle down to the general population. You get destroyed by a range blaster enough times, you may give it an extra shot even though it isn’t as easy to use as the rapid blaster or SSP.
These things happen more in that way than by people watching some video Dude made and switching. I’m sure that happens too, but Dude isn’t LeBron James here. His endorsement of a product (gun, gear; abilities in this case) doesn’t have the direct impact on the scene the way LeBron’s shoe line impacts basketball worldwide. This game and its players just isn’t/aren’t popular enough for something like that.
Editing this in as an aside... saw someone on twitter today who had Ikawidget 2 in English. Does anyone know where/how to change it to English? I’m super jealous and would love to be able to actually read the info in this app.
Unfortunately no, this isn't how it happens. Players promoting "meta" weapons by themselves isn't going to work. It's the results that these weapons pull in that enforce their positions. It's honestly whatever weapons people dominate with in tournament settings. So it would be difficult to promote those weapons by just saying they're good. And like @Goolloom said, a lot of these are just what's easiest to use and be successful with. Like the aerospray RG 1.3.0 meta. It was the best at spamming baller, and it was the easiest to get baller with. Even though the L-3 had more combat capabilities / could spam ballers almost as well. It required more skill / effort, so it wasn't used nearly as much.
And yes, the meta is directed by these top players, so some mindless sheep might fall for that prank. But a lot of people aren't stupid and see what's strong right now through other teams or by playing / testing the mechanic out themselves. So I don't think it would be this wide spread, with all the N-Zaps and Forge Pros walking about.
"Nintendo can you just nerf them already? I'm sick of double N-Zap."
I think it's more of a self fulfilling prophecy. Those tournament players are simply really good. And they're going to be capable of learning to use the strengths of any weapon unless it's a weapon with an actual flaw. Tournament players happen to pick weapon X, and it works for them, and people see it dominating, and a popular top player like Dude tells everyone it works well and everyone follows it. If tournament players started dominating with other weapons those weapons would become the meta. Using Dude as the example, look at how expertly he can use most any weapon. There's not many weapons I'd want to go up against if he's using them :P Same is true for most top players. The fact that when a patch drops everyone starts trying to quantify "what's the new meta" "what's the best weapon" and the perennial "what's the tier list".....the bulk of players are looking for a quantified, numeric "best" weapon to play. Most would believe any weapon is that weapon if someone expert enough told them it is.
The tourney looks like it does precisely because of this. IF you know everyone else has one of 3 weapons all of similar range and speed class, and can count on any team comp looking similar, then similar weapons are your best counter. So everyone uses nzap and pro because everyone uses nzap and pro. The problem builds the resulting problem. Not just in Splatoon....all games suffer the same thing.
Fact is that if a player doesn’t have success with a weapon, that player will probably stop using that weapon. For a large portion of the playing population, that means players will naturally funnel to what others have described as the best easy to use weapon.
For competitive players who do pay attention to pros, they might pick what worked best in tournaments. That’s a small segment, but it too can trickle down to the general population. You get destroyed by a range blaster enough times, you may give it an extra shot even though it isn’t as easy to use as the rapid blaster or SSP.
These things happen more in that way than by people watching some video Dude made and switching. I’m sure that happens too, but Dude isn’t LeBron James here. His endorsement of a product (gun, gear; abilities in this case) doesn’t have the direct impact on the scene the way LeBron’s shoe line impacts basketball worldwide. This game and its players just isn’t/aren’t popular enough for something like that.
Editing this in as an aside... saw someone on twitter today who had Ikawidget 2 in English. Does anyone know where/how to change it to English? I’m super jealous and would love to be able to actually read the info in this app.
We're actually mostly agreeing here. It's not JUST dude alone that would make that happen (though the "Dude said" meme should give us a hint) but also if we start talking about the fake "meta" here, reddit, include someone like dude, you'll see people trying it.....and that trial will trickle down to the masses just as you describe. Then articles will pop up defending that new meta and why you need to think differently to understand it.
People really underestimate just how much social influence and "promoters" combined shape public thinking entirely. Actually it would be a fun social experiment. This is precisely what corporate PR firms, governments, and media do to the tune of trillions of dollars on a daily basis.
