The Fan Language of Splatoon

[PiyozR]

We need to figure out this PDF overhaul before we start throwing around new vocabulary. How do we go about doing that?

I was thinking of creating over a dozen categories within the nouns, verbs and descriptors sections and then reading through the PDF and writing every word into one of those categories (probably in a notebook). Then I would rewrite those three sections of the PDF by inserting those categories and their vocab individually. This would be easy to do but insanely tedious. Anyone here have a better idea?

 

[MandL27]

We need to figure out this PDF overhaul before we start throwing around new vocabulary. How do we go about doing that?

I was thinking of creating over a dozen categories within the nouns, verbs and descriptors sections and then reading through the PDF and writing every word into one of those categories (probably in a notebook). Then I would rewrite those three sections of the PDF by inserting those categories and their vocab individually. This would be easy to do but insanely tedious. Anyone here have a better idea?

What sorts of categories would you be using?

 

[PiyozR]

What sorts of categories would you be using?

Right now I'm thinking colors, inking weapons, people (family members and animal species known to be personified in Splatoon), food and drink, parts of the body, geography, scientific terms, shopping/urban living, weather, maps (already have a unit for that). I'll think of more depending on how we decide to re-order the guide.

 

[MandL27]

Right now I'm thinking colors, inking weapons, people (family members and animal species known to be personified in Splatoon), food and drink, parts of the body, geography, scientific terms, shopping/urban living, weather, maps (already have a unit for that). I'll think of more depending on how we decide to re-order the guide.

I'd say sorting by topic like that would be the best way to go about it. I mean, from personal experience, most foreign language books pick a topic for each chapter and introduce words pertaining to such, so I don't see why this should be any different.

 

[Vylion]

We need to figure out this PDF overhaul before we start throwing around new vocabulary

Yeah you're probably right.

I'm behind sorting by topics too. I personally think, though, more grammatical aspects should be explained first, like word order, prepositions, question words, tenses, titles, ... and the vocabulary dump should be at the end. The helpful phrases section is also really handy although that can be a subcategory of vocabulary.

And I think that the geometry post should be all rewritten in a PDF, but a different one (referenced in the main PDF). And so, people can choose if they want to look into technical geometry vocab or just stick with the basic PDF. Generalizing, I think that if some other technical aspect gets in the language, we can maintain this kind of modularity.

I offer myself voluntary to make a PDF out of the geometry post. I don't think I have enough time to offer myself to help with the main PDF rewritting, but I feel like this would be more manageable.

 

[PiyozR]

I personally think, though, more grammatical aspects should be explained first, like word order, prepositions, question words, tenses, titles, ... and the vocabulary dump should be at the end. The helpful phrases section is also really handy although that can be a subcategory of vocabulary.

Does the order matter?

And I think that the geometry post should be all rewritten in a PDF, but a different one (referenced in the main PDF). And so, people can choose if they want to look into technical geometry vocab or just stick with the basic PDF. Generalizing, I think that if some other technical aspect gets in the language, we can maintain this kind of modularity.

Wouldn't making a separate guide only make it more confusing? Why make a separate guide just for one page of information? If people wanted to choose to look into the technical geometry vocab, then wouldn't they just choose to look at the geometry vocab on the main guide? Wouldn't that defeat the purpose of having an all-inclusive guide? Where would I host it? Why did we even create this geometry vocab?

 

[Vylion]

Does the order matter?

I think it does, on some sections. Something people are going to use a lot should be at the top most, where they will see it the most. If it's near the end, people can forget it, and if it's something key in the language that won't be good. I talk from experience of having to learn from other PDFs and from forgetting key stuff that only appears near the end.

Wouldn't making a separate guide only make it more confusing? Why make a separate guide just for one page of information? If people wanted to choose to look into the technical geometry vocab, then wouldn't they just choose to look at the geometry vocab on the main guide? Wouldn't that defeat the purpose of having an all-inclusive guide? Where would I host it? Why did we even create this geometry vocab?

But it already is a separate guide like it is right now. It wouldn't be more confusing than it is now. And honestly I don't think it is that much confusing anyway. You only gloss over it and then put a link to the respective post in this thread. I'm only saying to substitute that link with another PDF, so it isn't dependent on the SquidBoards servers, and on people having to dig through this thread. You could host it alongside the main PDF. You can also put up an Inkopolis University Google Drive if you want. But I mean, if you want to put everything in one guide I'm all for it. It's just that since you made it this way I figured you didn't want to, and continued from there.

As to why it exists, you'd have to ask to the one who suggested it. Right now it doesn't seem to do much, but that doesn't mean it isn't useful. I have already seen the need to use it a couple of times in "Inkling test runs". We could also make it more useful by incorporating something similar to Chinese classifiers, which could use some of those affixes. That's up to you.

 

[PiyozR]

I think it does, on some sections. Something people are going to use a lot should be at the top most, where they will see it the most. If it's near the end, people can forget it, and if it's something key in the language that won't be good. I talk from experience of having to learn from other PDFs and from forgetting key stuff that only appears near the end.

I'm not very clear on how the noun, verb and descriptor material is less "key" than the prepositions, conjunctions and question words material. Regardless, it's not like anyone is going to be reading this front-to-back like a textbook. Which leads me back to asking why the order is so important when readers will just be searching up what words they need when they need it.

Not that I'm opposed to shifting around the sections. Here are the sections as they're written now. Quote this post and re-arrange them as you think is best.

Pronunciation Guide……………………………………………S1
Syllabary………………………………………………………....S2
Pronouns…………………………………………………………S3
Nouns…………………………………………………………….S4
Verbs……………………………………………………………..S5
Prepositions……………………………………………………..S6
Conjunctions…………………………………………………….S7
Descriptors………………………………………………………S8
Question Words…………………………………………………S9
Titles……………………………………………………………..S10
Directions………………………………………………………..S11
Helpful Phrases…………………………………………………S12
Interjections……………………………………………………..S13
Numbers…………………………………………………………S14
Dates, Time and Age…………………………………………..S15
Comparisons……………………………………………………S16
Passive Voice……………………………………………………S17
Possessive………………………………………………………S18
Negation…………………………………………………………S19
Imperatives………………………………………………………S20
Question Particle.………………………………………….……S21
Suffixes….………………………………………………………S22
Demonstratives…………………………………………………S23
Verb Tense…………….………………………………………..S24
Idioms……………………………………………………….……S25
Signatures……………………………………………………….S26
Punctuation………………………………………………….…..S27
Sample Sentences……………………………………………..S28
Calamari County Dialect……………………………………….S29
Inkopolis Dialect………………………………………………...S30
Translations……………………………………………………..S31

But it already is a separate guide like it is right now. It wouldn't be more confusing than it is now. And honestly I don't think it is that much confusing anyway. You only gloss over it and then put a link to the respective post in this thread. I'm only saying to substitute that link with another PDF, so it isn't dependent on the SquidBoards servers, and on people having to dig through this thread. You could host it alongside the main PDF. You can also put up an Inkopolis University Google Drive if you want. But I mean, if you want to put everything in one guide I'm all for it. It's just that since you made it this way I figured you didn't want to, and continued from there.

But it isn't a separate guide. It's a sub-section of the Numbers section in the same PDF. The link to the Squidboards post is just for clarification on forming names for specifics shapes. I excluded that because it would take up space and nobody would miss it. Why would anyone want to download a separate PDF with one page of vocab for something as dull as geometry?

As to why it exists, you'd have to ask to the one who suggested it. Right now it doesn't seem to do much, but that doesn't mean it isn't useful. I have already seen the need to use it a couple of times in "Inkling test runs". We could also make it more useful by incorporating something similar to Chinese classifiers, which could use some of those affixes. That's up to you.

No, no, no, don't get me wrong. The geometry vocab is an excellent contribution by this community. It's a bit obtuse in comparison to everything else in the guide but it's neat and sensible and a great addition. I was just joking around in that post. I think it's just fine where it is. Using this geometry vocab for something else sounds fun but at this stage in the game I think adding more grammar elements is the last thing I have patience for. Instead we should be focusing on re-ordering the main vocab sections. I say we focus on that.

 

[SyMag]

Okay here's my thoughts:

I don't know if I've mentioned it before, but I'll bring it up again. I'm looking through all the sections as I'm trying to rearrange them, and I feel like most of them can be combined. For example the sections on Prepositions and Directions would go perfect together as prepositions are commonly used when giving directions. And I'm still going to push the topic of getting rid of the Nouns/Verbs sections entirely by:

1.) creating lists of nouns/verbs that share a common theme
2.) inject each pool of common nouns/verbs into different sections as a "vocabulary" list (ex. all the nouns and verbs for food/preparing food could go in one section)
3.) "Theme" each section to suit the vocabulary in question.

Not only would that get rid of the huge multi-page wall of vocabulary that would make anybody cry, but it would make the guide more appealing, easier to follow, and most importantly, the core vocabulary would be easier to remember if they're broken down by section. I also think one grammar subject should be included in each section to really bring everything together, as well as reduce clutter.

Obviously this would take some time, which is why I'm willing to do it if no one else is able to (or doesn't want to). I would just need to download the Inkling font used in the guide (if someone could provide that, that would put me ahead a bit), but it's something I think would benefit everyone trying to learn Inkling.

 

[Jonathx]

Hi! I'm new to squidboards (actually joined because I found this thread interesting) and was wondering: has any thought been put into standardizing the encoding of where in the private use area each individual character should go? With one or two fonts being used it's not an issue, but if more people became interested and made fonts, it would be good to have a standard encoding as part of the main language guide so anyone with ANY inkling-compatible font would be able to read anything written in any other.

It's a problem I've seen arise with other conlangs' fonts so I'm just suggesting you get it down in writing at some point.

And also, as I was exploring the guide and trying to organize the syllables in my head I just sort of came up with a basic encoding scheme, so I made a draft code chart in unicode style for it (attached to post). It's nothing special, but its a *little* more organized than just listing all the characters in an arbitrary order. If you have a better idea, I don't care if this gets thrown out entirely, but since I made it for myself I figured I'd share it with everyone.

 

[Ikaheishi]

@Jonathx
If you look at this post (#676) of mine earlier in the thread, you'll see it's what I've already been working on. ;) I've been mapping inkling around the area of U+EB00 to U+EBFF, and I plan to also include Octoling nearby. I chose this range as to not conflict with the Under ConScript Unicode Registry, or stuff like the symbols on Nintendo's consoles that are mapped in the beginning of the PUA.

It does seem though that I've been the only one that has focused on having a proper encoding until you showed up. It definitely would be nice to actually work with someone with an interest. I have a repository on GitHub setup for this work, although it seems I've been a bit too much of a perfectionist to commit and push anything yet.

I've been working on generating some charts, and a friend of mine is supposed to help me (although I'm doubting he will) specify the Unicode character properties for each character. But nobody has made a font using the mapping I've specified to date, and I don't know anything about actually making a font. (That didn't stop me from trying and failing twice though. :()

Additionally, in the Unicode character names I've specified, I used the letter J for {ž} as the English sound for J is /d͡ʒ/. This is to reflect the /d͡ʒ/ sound for {ž} shown in the pronunciation guide.

 

[SyMag]

But nobody has made a font using the mapping I've specified to date, and I don't know anything about actually making a font. (That didn't stop me from trying and failing twice though. :()

I haven't been able to get on the parents' computer yet, but I haven't forgotten about this! I can't promise anything, but I'll give it a try :)

 

[Jonathx]

If you look at this post (#676) of mine earlier in the thread, you'll see it's what I've already been working on.;)

I figured with a thread this long it was entirely probably someone was already working on it, but didn't have time to read through the entire thread, and had just gotten through the first page, last page and the language guide by the time I started working on it. Sorry if I stepped on your toes. ;)

I've been mapping inkling around the area of U+EB00 to U+EBFF, and I plan to also include Octoling nearby. I chose this range as to not conflict with the Under ConScript Unicode Registry, or stuff like the symbols on Nintendo's consoles that are mapped in the beginning of the PUA.

I hadn't really gotten to the stage of determining what character sets were likely to conflict yet, and was using U+E000 to U+E0FF as a general placeholder for "some 256-code-long section of the private use area" The EB block sounds way better, since you seem to have done the actual research on what is/isn't being used in the PUA.

Looking at your encoding, it's very compact, which is great if you want to include octoling without taking a seecond block, but I've always been a fan of leaving reserved space so the inherent structure of the script is preserved. That way you can pull some coding tricks (like ASCII does with its capital and lowecase letters) to, for instance, have a function in a translator app that returns true if a syllable ends in {e}. It's also nice if more glyphs are "discovered" at some point, for instance if a hypothetical Splatoon 2 were to have missions take place in some region that has its own dialect, and that dialect needs a glyph for "moi," under a dense encoding like yours such a revelation would have to be awkwardly appended on at the end, messing up the pattern. Ofc, mine still has that problem if entire new vowels or consonants are added, but new manners and places of articulation tend to warrant in a full new set of characters anyway. And I get the impression Octoling will need a pretty full block too...I've only looked at the first couple pages of that thread, and haven't seen an equivalent master guide, but it seems like it has more sounds, so unless they use a true alphabet (which trade fewer types of glyphs for more glyphs per word) I can't see it just 'slotting in' in the EB block with so much of the space already taken up by inkling.

It does seem though that I've been the only one that has focused on having a proper encoding until you showed up. It definitely would be nice to actually work with someone with an interest. I have a repository on GitHub setup for this work, although it seems I've been a bit too much of a perfectionist to commit and push anything yet.

I've been working on generating some charts, and a friend of mine is supposed to help me (although I'm doubting he will) specify the Unicode character properties for each character.

I've taken a reasonable number of CS courses, but I'm a mechanical engineer, not a computer scientist myself, so while I'm happy to give what help I can, I'm not sure how deep into the actual properties I'll be able to delve before I'm driven mad by unicode's dark, forbidden secrets. I understand how the codepoints are selected and how they're represented by UTF-8 for transmission, but only know that the interpretation code used to display it all properly with so many different scripts is incredibly complex under the hood, not how it actually works.

Additionally, in the Unicode character names I've specified, I used the letter J for {ž} as the English sound for J is /d͡ʒ/. This is to reflect the /d͡ʒ/ sound for {ž} shown in the pronunciation guide.

Yeah, I know that /d͡ʒ/ is the English J / soft G sound, but since {ž} was alternatively allowed to be pronounced as /d͡ʒ/ or /ʒ/, I chose the latter (transcribed as ZH) because it fit better in the parallelism of my scheme. I mean, /d͡ʒ/ still has a devoiced buddy in the script with /t⁀ʃ/, but that would make /ʃ/ and /t⁀s/ have no natural neighbor under my scheme, so I selected my rendering a *little* artificially to make it work out.

I agree with your use of "letter" instead of "syllable" and "digit" instead of "numeral" though, since looking at the charts Japanese kana use "letter" in their spec and digit is more specific to base 10 (linear B's the only script that I was able to find using "syllable" and that one has to differentiate its syllables from ideograms and symbols whose purpose is still unknown). I also agree with your leaving off of the punctuation as well: no need to repeat stuff that's already covered in ASCII and early extensions, especially since they LOOK the same too...

 

[PiyozR]

I don't know if I've mentioned it before, but I'll bring it up again. I'm looking through all the sections as I'm trying to rearrange them, and I feel like most of them can be combined. For example the sections on Prepositions and Directions would go perfect together as prepositions are commonly used when giving directions. And I'm still going to push the topic of getting rid of the Nouns/Verbs sections entirely by:

1.) creating lists of nouns/verbs that share a common theme
2.) inject each pool of common nouns/verbs into different sections as a "vocabulary" list (ex. all the nouns and verbs for food/preparing food could go in one section)
3.) "Theme" each section to suit the vocabulary in question.

Not only would that get rid of the huge multi-page wall of vocabulary that would make anybody cry, but it would make the guide more appealing, easier to follow, and most importantly, the core vocabulary would be easier to remember if they're broken down by section. I also think one grammar subject should be included in each section to really bring everything together, as well as reduce clutter.

It's ideas like this that I was playing around with today. Should we keep out Nouns, Verbs and Descriptors sections separate and then sub-divide them among certain topics? Or should we do as you suggest and divide the vocab from all three sections into topical sections instead? I'm not really partial to one method over another. I think they're equally accessible. But perhaps dividing the entire guide not by parts of speech but by grammatical use and topic would make the task easier on us. And yes, reduce clutter, too.

Obviously this would take some time, which is why I'm willing to do it if no one else is able to (or doesn't want to). I would just need to download the Inkling font used in the guide (if someone could provide that, that would put me ahead a bit), but it's something I think would benefit everyone trying to learn Inkling.

The logistics of such an overhaul have been giving me nightmares. The actual re-typing and copying-and-pasting I'd prefer to do on my own. As for the actual organization of all this, this may be a project for more than one person (just like creating it was a community effort). How do we begin?

Do we come up with a list of topics to create sections for and then cherry-pick from over thirty pages of vocab? Holy hell my eyes would melt from having to start at my laptop screen for that long. An idea: three users (me and two volunteers) agree on a list of vocab topics. Then, each of us cracks open the Noun, the Verb or the Descriptor sections and chooses a new topic section for every piece of vocab within. Would anyone be willing to undertake something like this? This is pretty huge commitment.

Another point is that we'd need a different font for rendering Inkling characters in the PDF. The one used now has awkward spacing and can't type out {be}. @Vylion 's looks great but I haven't found a way to apply it in Microsoft Word. @Jonathx and @Ikaheishi let us know what you come up with.

 

[SyMag]

Should we keep out Nouns, Verbs and Descriptors sections separate and then sub-divide them among certain topics? Or should we do as you suggest and divide the vocab from all three sections into topical sections instead?

When you say sub-divide, do you mean still keep them as their own sections but reorganize them to flow better? Because if that's the case I think the second idea would still be the optimal choice.

As for the actual organization of all this, this may be a project for more than one person (just like creating it was a community effort). How do we begin?

This is gonna sound corny perhaps, but this is a guide to learning a language yes? So my thought is, why not structure it like a language textbook? I think I have an Italian textbook lying around, I can refer to that in order to map out the outline of our guide.

Do we come up with a list of topics to create sections for and then cherry-pick from over thirty pages of vocab? Holy hell my eyes would melt from having to start at my laptop screen for that long. An idea: three users (me and two volunteers) agree on a list of vocab topics. Then, each of us cracks open the Noun, the Verb or the Descriptor sections and chooses a new topic section for every piece of vocab within. Would anyone be willing to undertake something like this? This is pretty huge commitment.

Luckily I stare at screens all day (woo?), so I wouldn't mind volunteering as tribute.

 

[Ikaheishi]

@Jonathx
I like how you identified these patterns in the language. I looked for such patterns when I started on it a few months ago… And I missed all of them.

My only issue with your proposal is the practicality of grouping the letters by their sound: It's structurally beautiful, but the letters aren't in ‘alphabetical’ order. While there is the Unicode sort algorithm and we probably could define an Inkling locale for it, I just don't see it being used all that often, if it's reasonably possible at all. I suspect typical comparison functions like C's wcscmp() will be used instead.

I doubt we could add a new locale to existing software like MS Office anyways.

Perhaps what would be best is a compromise of structure and simplicity, arranging the groups in the ‘alphabetical’ order? That way, a simple less-than/greater-than sort will collate the letters ‘alphabetically’—just like ASCII—and we would still have some nice bit manipulation tricks too. :)

And I get the impression Octoling will need a pretty full block too...I've only looked at the first couple pages of that thread, and haven't seen an equivalent master guide, but it seems like it has more sounds, so unless they use a true alphabet (which trade fewer types of glyphs for more glyphs per word) I can't see it just 'slotting in' in the EB block with so much of the space already taken up by inkling.

Yeah… That's why I said “nearby”. By my count, Octoling has 67 letters and 8 digits, so I figure the Octoling block will take up 6×16 codepoints. Octoling will encode rather nicely with its eight vowels and all (Wow, those whippersnappers sure are computer-savvy!), but it would only fit in the same 256-codepoint chunk as a compact encoding of Inkling: (127+10)+(67+8) = 137+75 = 212 < 256

I still think I rather implement the more structural encoding of Inkling instead of the compact one I've done sofar. I don't mind if the Octoling block is in a separate chunk of the PUA, I'd just like to keep it close by.

By the way, the latest version of the Octoling guide is attached to post #132 of that thread. (Which at this moment is the latest post.)

I've taken a reasonable number of CS courses, but I'm a mechanical engineer, not a computer scientist myself, so while I'm happy to give what help I can, I'm not sure how deep into the actual properties I'll be able to delve before I'm driven mad by unicode's dark, forbidden secrets. I understand how the codepoints are selected and how they're represented by UTF-8 for transmission, but only know that the interpretation code used to display it all properly with so many different scripts is incredibly complex under the hood, not how it actually works.

I understand. Reading through the Unicode technical standards has been pretty difficult for me… Hence why I solicited the help of that friend of mine.


@PiyozR @SyMag and @Vylion
On a semi-related note to the guide discussion: How about a dictionary at some point… maybe something like Wiktionary? Just a thought I had.

 

[SyMag]

On a semi-related note to the guide discussion: How about a dictionary at some point… maybe something like Wiktionary? Just a thought I had.

That's something I've been sitting on myself. I think it would be a good idea; I'd like to have both English → Inkling and Inkling → English like most bilingual dictionaries have it, but what does everyone else think? That wouldn't be too hard to do/update I don't think.

 

[Jonathx]

My only issue with your proposal is the practicality of grouping the letters by their sound: It's structurally beautiful, but the letters aren't in ‘alphabetical’ order. While there is the Unicode sort algorithm and we probably could define an Inkling locale for it, I just don't see it being used all that often, if it's reasonably possible at all. I suspect typical comparison functions like C's wcscmp() will be used instead.

Perhaps what would be best is a compromise of structure and simplicity, arranging the groups in the ‘alphabetical’ order? That way, a simple less-than/greater-than sort will collate the letters ‘alphabetically’—just like ASCII—and we would still have some nice bit manipulation tricks too. :)

Alright, I can get behind that. Most modern scripts have their own traditional equivalent to 'alphabetical order,' and, being a conlang it would be nice to have that order reflect the natural structure, but I can see how coding that in would be time-consuming (and impossible for many applications like word). But would you still want the multisyllable glyphs, like {ayo} and {ise} separated out from the rest, or have their blocks interleaved with the others in a truly alphabetical fashion? The pure-vowel set of glyphs {a}, {e}, {i}, {o}, {u}, and {oi} would mess up a pure wcscmp() without some simple logic around it anyway, but you are right, when existing code is available, make as much use of it as you can.

By the way, the latest version of the Octoling guide is attached to post #132 of that thread. (Which at this moment is the latest post.)

Thanks! I'll take a look.

 

[PiyozR]

An English to Inkling / Inkling to English dictionary is a fun idea. But is there a point when every word we have is listed on the guide?

Depending on how we'll be able to generate Inkling text in the future, I may set up a few lessons on Memrise for us to practice.

Here is a suggested list of vocab topics for re-organizing the PDF. Order is TBD. Any and all feedback on this list is encouraged.

-Pronouns
-Conjunctions
-Question words
-Turf War (weapons, gear, obstacles)
-People (gender, family, careers
-Colors
-Food
-Weather
-Geography
-Animals (species of the Splatoon world living and extinct)
-Urban Living (buildings, transportation, shopping)
-Time (already a section)
-Shooting the Breeze (everything from lies to possibilities to commands to certainties to hypotheticals)
-Science
-Numbers (already a section)
-Hobbies (arts, writing, sports, music)
-General verbs
-Derivative verbs
-General Descriptors
-Titles
-Helpful Phrases
-Interjections
and then all the grammar stuff that's already there

 

[SyMag]

Okay three questions:

1. Derivative verbs are those that are nouns with {-kói}- at the end right?
2. I think the verbs should be grouped together with like themes (ex. "to bake" would go with all the food vocabulary). Thoughts?
3. Should Descriptors be re-labeled as Adjectives to avoid confusion?