What Weapons do you feel need Buffs or Nerfs and how would they change them?

[Hero of Lime]

I recently just thought of how a DI nerf would go for the Dynamo. As in decreasing their mobility in the air, so that side jumps and turning during jumps works slower, making it harder to flexibly kill more mobile weapons. Maybe with an additional buff to the sides of the hitboxes so they kill a bit sooner in return so the nerf wouldn't break their neck. That would make long range attacks a lot harder to use.

Looks like someone saw my earlier post on mid air maneuverability nerfs to the Dynamo. ;)

That is something I would "nerf" to it, and I like that you included a way to slightly buff them too. I would not be so kind after how many times I've been demolished by one. >.>

OT: As for a buff I've been thinking of, I've been thinking there must be a way to buff the suction bomb a bit. As of right now, I only use it as pressure, or some sort of distraction or intimidation tactic. But having it explode a lot sooner would be too much, so maybe a slightly larger radius? And maybe keep the radius the same as it is now in a suction rush? Just something I've been thinking about. I feel the suction bomb is far outclassed by the Splatbomb, and the pre nerf Burst Bombs. Even the current burst bombs can still have great kill potential.

 

[Ulk]

Looks like someone saw my earlier post on mid air maneuverability nerfs to the Dynamo. ;)

That is something I would "nerf" to it, and I like that you included a way to slightly buff them too. I would not be so kind after how many times I've been demolished by one. >.>

OT: As for a buff I've been thinking of, I've been thinking there must be a way to buff the suction bomb a bit. As of right now, I only use it as pressure, or some sort of distraction or intimidation tactic. But having it explode a lot sooner would be too much, so maybe a slightly larger radius? And maybe keep the radius the same as it is now in a suction rush? Just something I've been thinking about. I feel the suction bomb is far outclassed by the Splatbomb, and the pre nerf Burst Bombs. Even the current burst bombs can still have great kill potential.

You accuse me of being the kind to steal ideas? Wish I could say you were wrong. Seriously though, always good to know someone else sees a potential way to get to that weapon without making it useless. Luckily flexible attacks for Dynamos are not noobie-friendly, but I kind of feel like the increased beginning lag also leaves some room for additional adjustment of the aim.

 

[Award]

Really unnecessarily long post inkoming!

Those are my specialty! ;)

Interesting analysis of the Cherry. I can see how it could be fairly decent based on the way you describe it, though I still have strong doubts about how a weapon that relies so heavily on its special can, in a practical rather than theoretical sense, really keep up with weapons that are ALWAYS more dangerous rather than sometimes. I'm also not convinced of it's excellent inking rate. It's not on the very bad side of inking but I've never felt like it was on the very good side either. The slow rate of fire really holds back how well it can ink in a given period of time, and more specifically the slow fire and slow recharge makes it an easy target while inking. I DO tend to ink a lot with it largely because in solo I seem to be the only one inking at all, ever, and it's definitely ok, but I've never felt it was "great".

But you do make some points of its play overall, though it also makes the case it's not a weapon for me, as I don't like focusing on specials as a primary. Even when I play Jr I use it as a longer ranged more lag resistant sploosh, and the bubbles are a perk when they happen not a goal. The only weapons I've ever specialized on the special are krak-on roller and Custom Hydra where I tend to experiment with special charge builds. But I see how it could become an annoying weapon with loads of bubblers. Easy to out-juke though, still. It makes a good case that it could be a good weapon in the right hands, but I still don't feel it's the update the H3 needed to be anything other than niche, unfortunately.

Of course, since the Kraken is still really good while the H-3 is still hard to use, the 96 Deco is likely still gonna be better and much more preferred, but atleast the H-3 actually has a solid to reason to be used now. Look at the Splattershot Jr. for instance. The main weapon is strictly an inferior N'Zap, they even have the exact same sub, and yet the Jr. remains popular, even more so than the Zapper, so having a different special (namely the Bubbler hehe) really can make all the difference!

Are you sure NZap and Jr have the same mobility? Personally I switch to Jr when lag is making sploosh fail and I use it as a rushdown sploosh with bombs (Sploosh 7 may negate half the gain.) but I never focus on bubbler. Yet I've found it easier to get faster rushdown kills with it than nzap. At close range and in terms of mobility are they really the same? Just perception?

 

[binx]

We're going a bit off topic there but well.

I just wanted to say I disagree for the cherry - I don't think the bubble is the point. The wall is. Actually the problem of the H-3 is that it either asks a crazy accuracy, or too many shots. With a wall, you're allowed to shoot 2 or 3 times easily. You're only problem will be against other wall users, because I can't see the H-3 destroying a wall faster than his opponent.

But basically, the wall is quite good for this weapon. Of course I can't say the bubble is bad for it, but I don't think it's the main point, as you can't have your special in every fight anyway.

 

[Magnus0]

I just thought of a cool way of buffing the sloshing machine.

So the coolest thing that you can do with a SM is getting a direct hit from a high slosh, like when you stand on the tower in blackberry and rain down on the enemies in the splat zone. Getting a direct from up high is really satisfying, BUT, it doesn't even OHKO despite being infinitely harder to pull of than a straight slosh or shot from a slosher or a blaster. So, my suggestion would be to make the power of a SM slosh scale with air time. Basically, if you slosh up at a high point, or down from a high point, your sloshes will be more powerful. That would make the sloshing machine feel like an actual slosher, since the weird arc that allows sloshers to get enemies up high or rain down on enemies below, is really what defines a slosher.

Give the thing some more range which allows for more air time and thus power of sloshes (even on flat ground) and you have a solid weapon that can be very dangerous on certain maps.

Thoughts?

 

[Award]

We're going a bit off topic there but well.

I just wanted to say I disagree for the cherry - I don't think the bubble is the point. The wall is. Actually the problem of the H-3 is that it either asks a crazy accuracy, or too many shots. With a wall, you're allowed to shoot 2 or 3 times easily. You're only problem will be against other wall users, because I can't see the H-3 destroying a wall faster than his opponent.

But basically, the wall is quite good for this weapon. Of course I can't say the bubble is bad for it, but I don't think it's the main point, as you can't have your special in every fight anyway.

I mostly agree but I think the counter-argument would be: Based on the ttk and accuracy of shots, if the splash wall is the main feature, why not use Jet Squelcher? Same sub same (or better?) range, similar rate of fire without a slow recycle time between shots. It basically just makes H3 a worse squelcher. The bubble becomes the only thing that makes it different.

I'm fairly unhappy with this route for H3. I think it needed a less "invincibility stack" that favors the new variety and abandons the first two and more of a general buff to make the whole weapon family far, far more practical. shot travel times, recycle times, projectile spacing...these three things are what needed updates. Not bubbles and walls.


Not too off topic, we were talking about buffs and nerfs. Then we saw the patch notes for 2.8 and realized there basically are none :P

 

[Cuttleshock]

Thoughts?

That's a really neat way of applying increased damage! I've always felt that the Sloshing Machine works, in some ways, as a Rapid Blaster with less range and less speed, just based on its projectile style and hits required. But it's further disadvantaged by its inability to get 2HKOs with indirect hits, which I see most Rapid Blasters get around with a large amount of Damage Up stacked. So you're suggesting an alteration in damage dealt that doesn't require Damage Up to get advantages from.

In addition, if it's based purely on air time (with sloshing right in their face dealing default damage and some reasonable increase with greater distance), I'd love to see it actually deal more damage from great heights - Moray is what comes to mind, but most stages have sensible high ledges from which the SM's range reaches a lot of ground. It's really greedy of me, but... I'd love for it to be able to OHKO from large drops. It's not at all easy to hit, so it's more of an added hazard that one poses to opponents than anything else, but it'd be nice for someone to take me seriously with the SM for once!

 

[Award]

That's a really neat way of applying increased damage! I've always felt that the Sloshing Machine works, in some ways, as a Rapid Blaster with less range and less speed, just based on its projectile style and hits required. But it's further disadvantaged by its inability to get 2HKOs with indirect hits, which I see most Rapid Blasters get around with a large amount of Damage Up stacked. So you're suggesting an alteration in damage dealt that doesn't require Damage Up to get advantages from.

In addition, if it's based purely on air time (with sloshing right in their face dealing default damage and some reasonable increase with greater distance), I'd love to see it actually deal more damage from great heights - Moray is what comes to mind, but most stages have sensible high ledges from which the SM's range reaches a lot of ground. It's really greedy of me, but... I'd love for it to be able to OHKO from large drops. It's not at all easy to hit, so it's more of an added hazard that one poses to opponents than anything else, but it'd be nice for someone to take me seriously with the SM for once!

Slightly off topic but I still strongly dislike the notion that weapons designed around a specific number of hits to kill can be altered with damage ups, particularly a large number of damage ups that aren't likely to acquire naturally, to reduce the number of required hits. Rapid blasters are 3hko indirect weapons, and have always been 3hko indirect weapons in my hands at all times. The idea that for certain builds they're 2hko indirect weapons makes them play entirely differently and dramatically alters their role. The handling of dmg up in this game was just done so wrong, IMO. Dmg up should be to counter def up, and vice versa, not granting reduced to-hit benefits to a handful of weapons (why not make a tentatek 2hko and a 96 ohko wtih enough dmg?)

 

[Cuttleshock]

Slightly off topic but I still strongly dislike the notion that weapons designed around a specific number of hits to kill can be altered with damage ups, particularly a large number of damage ups that aren't likely to acquire naturally, to reduce the number of required hits. Rapid blasters are 3hko indirect weapons, and have always been 3hko indirect weapons in my hands at all times. The idea that for certain builds they're 2hko indirect weapons makes them play entirely differently and dramatically alters their role. The handling of dmg up in this game was just done so wrong, IMO. Dmg up should be to counter def up, and vice versa, not granting reduced to-hit benefits to a handful of weapons (why not make a tentatek 2hko and a 96 ohko wtih enough dmg?)

Verily, I do dislike the way Rapids have worked out, but as it stands, it's hard to argue that that's not the best way to play them, unless you're extremely skilled and can get direct hits with high frequency (but blasters are meant for attacking around corners, anyway...). So I would settle for an SM buff allowing it to 2HKO with indirect hits with enough Damage Up, but I would much prefer an entirely new and unique damage system like Magnus suggests.

 

[ぇぃぇ]

Slightly off topic but I still strongly dislike the notion that weapons designed around a specific number of hits to kill can be altered with damage ups, particularly a large number of damage ups that aren't likely to acquire naturally, to reduce the number of required hits. Rapid blasters are 3hko indirect weapons, and have always been 3hko indirect weapons in my hands at all times. The idea that for certain builds they're 2hko indirect weapons makes them play entirely differently and dramatically alters their role. The handling of dmg up in this game was just done so wrong, IMO. Dmg up should be to counter def up, and vice versa, not granting reduced to-hit benefits to a handful of weapons (why not make a tentatek 2hko and a 96 ohko wtih enough dmg?)

why not? because it's just plain dumb. it would clearly make the weapon overpowered and would make those weapons the best weapon in the game. however, even with the 2hko, the rapid blaster doesn't get anywhere near the best in the game. besides, complaining about damage up making the rapid blaster play differently is like bomb range up or special charge up making the zimi play differently. or damage up making the dynamo play differently compared to no damage up. or bomb range up and damage up making the splattershot and hero shot play differently.

 

[Award]

Verily, I do dislike the way Rapids have worked out, but as it stands, it's hard to argue that that's not the best way to play them, unless you're extremely skilled and can get direct hits with high frequency (but blasters are meant for attacking around corners, anyway...). So I would settle for an SM buff allowing it to 2HKO with indirect hits with enough Damage Up, but I would much prefer an entirely new and unique damage system like Magnus suggests.

I didn't even know until a week or so ago when someone I think in this thread pointed out that dmg up has that effect on rapids. It explained a lot about how I seem them dominate at times but I can't get them to do much - well of course the dmg up players have a 30% faster ttk...

I'd definitely like to see any buffs provide for real base stat adjustments rather than "only for players that know to stack x amount of dmg up to make the weapon play right." No DMG up buff but a real stat buff for SM, please!

why not? because it's just plain dumb. it would clearly make the weapon overpowered and would make those weapons the best weapon in the game. however, even with the 2hko, the rapid blaster doesn't get anywhere near the best in the game. besides, complaining about damage up making the rapid blaster play differently is like bomb range up or special charge up making the zimi play differently. or damage up making the dynamo play differently compared to no damage up. or bomb range up and damage up making the splattershot and hero shot play differently.

The issue though is it's a power up that basically affects certain weapons greatly (reducing their ttk by up to 30% and removing whole required shots) while having no real effect on other weapons beyond countering dmg up or reducing RNG err, or on the rollers very mildly extending their damage at the fringe or their ohko range by a little. But rollers, being ohko weapons at the start, don't benefit too much from it. Skilled users are landing the first hit most of the time, and if they don't it's likely a 2hko with or without the dmg up. It's mostly the damage at max range that's boosted by dmg up but in a small window. And yes, tentatek being sped up is dumb, which is sort of my point. Extending bomb range changes how a weapon plays, but that change can be applied to ANY weapon with a throwable sub. "reduced shots to hit" applies only to certain weapons. After the 2.7 patch dmg up doesn't really change the way chargers play anymore either. People are still stacking for bizarre reasons unknown, I still use it to counter def up, fairly important at times, but that's just it. It's being used as a def up counter now. The range gap on chargers in 2.7 stopped the "reduced charge time" issue, and too close chargers are still 2hko.

It's Rapids, .52, the 99% dmg bambi's (rare though), and one or two other weapons I'm forgetting that go from 4hko to 3hko (or 5hko to 4hko) that get unique advantages from the ability in a way that doesn't seem intentional.

So this being the nerf thread: Nerf dmg up so that it doesn't alter base stats but instead plays its cat & mouse game with def up. Which is actually how it already works for MOST weapons.

 

[Saber]

I might be crossing a line but I think this isn't damage up is a good thing for people who shy aware from low tier weapons picking up tools like the rapid blaster, or sloshing machines, especially since it serves as training wheel to better learn how to use
However I feel that high meta weapons like the .96 gal, .52 gal, eliter, etc. shouldn't gain this buff, these weapons are already good and don't need damage up to change their DPS at all and only serve as a counter to defense up, this way it will encourage people to try out more weapons/ abilities in exchange for the high tier ones with a ridiculous amount of damage up

 

[Hitzel]

Getting rid of active damage up screws over a lot of mid and low tier weapons, especially burst bomb weapons, prevents teams from running damage that makes their weapons more powerful when used to fire at the same target, and stops a lot of really interesting damage thresholds in general from being possible. Removing it would be harmful to the game.

If you think that damage up sin't that useful anyway, then why do you want it removed anyway?

 

[ぇぃぇ]

It's Rapids, .52, the 99% dmg bambi's (rare though), and one or two other weapons I'm forgetting that go from 4hko to 3hko (or 5hko to 4hko) that get unique advantages from the ability in a way that doesn't seem intentional.

So this being the nerf thread: Nerf dmg up so that it doesn't alter base stats but instead plays its cat & mouse game with def up. Which is actually how it already works for MOST weapons.

now that i really understand you i can kind of agree with you. but i also think that falloff damage should be like it is with the .52 or the .96 or the splattershot pro, where it actually gets affected by damage up. besides, if falloff damage has stayed like this for as long as the game has been out, i think it's intentional.

 

[Award]

I might be crossing a line but I think this isn't damage up is a good thing for people who shy aware from low tier weapons picking up tools like the rapid blaster, or sloshing machines, especially since it serves as training wheel to better learn how to use
However I feel that high meta weapons like the .96 gal, .52 gal, eliter, etc. shouldn't gain this buff, these weapons are already good and don't need damage up to change their DPS at all and only serve as a counter to defense up, this way it will encourage people to try out more weapons/ abilities in exchange for the high tier ones with a ridiculous amount of damage up

True, but it's fair to say that a weapon that "needs" dmg up to be useful NEEDS to be buffed on its own anyway. A theoretical 3.0 that stripped dmg up of base state mods would theoretically also apply universal buffs to rapid blasters for example to make them behave consistently in a useful way as well. I don't think it would have a detrimental affect if they understand what needs to be buffed to offset specific weapon issues that would be created. 52 is a huge culprit (like eliter was) of a weapon playing a role other than the one the devs intended due to dmg up abuse. A 3hko 52 becomes a 2hko 52. That shoots faster than 96. And it was already powerful as a 3hko. They fixed eliter (weirdly in a way that broke it) but leave the obnoxious 52. RB, I wouldn't mind if it were SUPPOSED to be a 2hko indirect. But it should really just have base stats to do that if that's how it should work (but that would make it do the same thing as the big blasters, so they probably don't intend it.) It does need SOMETHING though to make it stand out.

Getting rid of active damage up screws over a lot of mid and low tier weapons, especially burst bomb weapons, prevents teams from running damage that makes their weapons more powerful when used to fire at the same target, and stops a lot of really interesting damage thresholds in general from being possible. Removing it would be harmful to the game.

If you think that damage up sin't that useful anyway, then why do you want it removed anyway?

I'd not be entirely against allowing dmg up to continue affecting subs. Expending bomb radius damage doesn't really break things the way changing the shots-to-kill from main weapons do. I think main weapon effect is where the issues lie. I use the dmg up on splatterscope both to counter def and to boost bombs a bit. I can't say it impacts the bombs all that much, but I don't think it breaks them either.

"prevents teams from .....fire at the same target" sounds like you're, understandably, viewing this from the perspective of organized teams again, but that's really far, far, FAR outside the scope of nerf/buff from the development perspective. That kind of use is not what they would be looking at as it exists outside the majority of user's gameplay. And lets face it, it won't harm play at that level no matter WHAT they do to balance, those are players skilled enough to adapt to the changes fast.

I didn't say it's not useful, I said for the majority of weapons it doesn't affect ttk or not heavily versus countering dmg up. But certain weapons it changes the raw shots to kill and that the disparity is a problem in the same way that most though the shortened charge time of eliter was a problem (I never fully agreed with the ire toward eliter, but if the devs tell us that the effect of dmg up on eliter was a problem, surely the effect on some other weapons is a problem too. )

now that i really understand you i can kind of agree with you. but i also think that falloff damage should be like it is with the .52 or the .96 or the splattershot pro, where it actually gets affected by damage up. besides, if falloff damage has stayed like this for as long as the game has been out, i think it's intentional.

Like with @Hitzel's point about bombs, the falloff damage isn't too big a problem either. Like with rollers. Ideally from the start dmg wouldn't have been allowed to be used like it is, but since a lot of players are used to its effect on falloff and bomb damage, and neither of those things is really broken, that's not too harmful. But changing the shots to hit, only a few weapons get that advantage, and it strongly changes how they're used. Heck at a minimum there should be in-game signage stating exactly how many abilities are needed to have what shots to kill effects on a weapon so everybody knows. We talk about these things here as a pool of A, A+, S, S+, tournament players who know about these things (and even I didn't know about the 2hko RB boost from dmg up until this thread) - but every other Bob, Sally, and Kesuke in B+ that's not lurking these types of forums have zero clue that's even possible. Nintendo Power is gone, we don't need cheats from our monthly delivery to figure out how to play the game :)

Using RB as the sample: IS RB a 3hko radius or 2hko radius weapon? Both depending on gear. And the game doesn't tell anyone this. But while the RB can be made a 2hko weapon from radius, the Blaster can not be made a 1hko weapon from radius. Symmetry really breaks down with these kinds of problems.

 

[Hero of Lime]

You accuse me of being the kind to steal ideas? Wish I could say you were wrong. Seriously though, always good to know someone else sees a potential way to get to that weapon without making it useless. Luckily flexible attacks for Dynamos are not noobie-friendly, but I kind of feel like the increased beginning lag also leaves some room for additional adjustment of the aim.

I'm so sorry! I didn't mean to say you stole my idea. Don't worry about it. I quoted you because I was happy someone else came up with that idea. The more people who think of that possible way of balancing the weapon, maybe the devs will think of it too.

 

[Cuttleshock]

I'm so sorry! I didn't mean to say you stole my idea. Don't worry about it. I quoted you because I was happy someone else came up with that idea. The more people who think of that possible way of balancing the weapon, maybe the devs will think of it too.

From my interpretation, you missed the key sentence in "Wish I could say you were wrong" (so Ulk was joking about being indignant). Still, interesting logic!

 

[Ulk]

I'm so sorry! I didn't mean to say you stole my idea. Don't worry about it. I quoted you because I was happy someone else came up with that idea. The more people who think of that possible way of balancing the weapon, maybe the devs will think of it too.

Haha. I was joking, no worries. I know you didn't. But yeah, though I think these kinds of ideas rather come from direct experience. I really don't know to what extent the devs observe realistic gameplay or whether they merely pay attention to usage and kill rate stats and tweak from there.

 

[Hero of Lime]

From my interpretation, you missed the key sentence in "Wish I could say you were wrong" (so Ulk was joking about being indignant). Still, interesting logic!

Haha. I was joking, no worries. I know you didn't. But yeah, though I think these kinds of ideas rather come from direct experience. I really don't know to what extent the devs observe realistic gameplay or whether they merely pay attention to usage and kill rate stats and tweak from there.

Phew. That's good to know!

 

[Lonely_Dolphin]

Those are my specialty! ;)

Interesting analysis of the Cherry. I can see how it could be fairly decent based on the way you describe it, though I still have strong doubts about how a weapon that relies so heavily on its special can, in a practical rather than theoretical sense, really keep up with weapons that are ALWAYS more dangerous rather than sometimes. I'm also not convinced of it's excellent inking rate. It's not on the very bad side of inking but I've never felt like it was on the very good side either. The slow rate of fire really holds back how well it can ink in a given period of time, and more specifically the slow fire and slow recharge makes it an easy target while inking. I DO tend to ink a lot with it largely because in solo I seem to be the only one inking at all, ever, and it's definitely ok, but I've never felt it was "great".

But you do make some points of its play overall, though it also makes the case it's not a weapon for me, as I don't like focusing on specials as a primary. Even when I play Jr I use it as a longer ranged more lag resistant sploosh, and the bubbles are a perk when they happen not a goal. The only weapons I've ever specialized on the special are krak-on roller and Custom Hydra where I tend to experiment with special charge builds. But I see how it could become an annoying weapon with loads of bubblers. Easy to out-juke though, still. It makes a good case that it could be a good weapon in the right hands, but I still don't feel it's the update the H3 needed to be anything other than niche, unfortunately.



Are you sure NZap and Jr have the same mobility? Personally I switch to Jr when lag is making sploosh fail and I use it as a rushdown sploosh with bombs (Sploosh 7 may negate half the gain.) but I never focus on bubbler. Yet I've found it easier to get faster rushdown kills with it than nzap. At close range and in terms of mobility are they really the same? Just perception?

The Jr. can keep up, like any weapon can really, so I see no reason why the Cherry H-3 can't, I mean I've already been able to do so with the exsting H-3 sets. I mean it's lagging behind of course, but it doesn't just auto-lose to other weapons. It's fire rate isn't Blaster slow, and despite the range a single burst fully covers a line with ink as if it was a charger. Most guns require multiple shots to do this.

Nah, before this update the H-3 was nothing, but now it will actually have a niche! Totally fine if you don't like the weapon because of that, though it's a bit hypocritical for you to say since you say you use the Jr. :L

Yep the N'Zap also has better mobility, and still the Jr. remains more popular despite it's only reason to be used over it being the Bubbler.