Why Competitive Splatoon should use all Game Modes instead of one
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Drez
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Even if Turf Wars isn't made into a competitive mode, I would at least like to be able to match make and play in it, and without specials probably. I just want to paint man. I want to paint with friends. So even still, improving the mode will still be good, competitive or not. I am still down for the other modes too. This game is so damn fun guys. (I just got it a couple of days ago, level 10 now)
Turf wars develops throughout the match. It's not only the final 30 seconds that count. And I know that it seems logical and true that it's only the final 30 seconds that count, but it's kind of a mental trick that makes us feel that way about a lot of similar things in life.
You can only do so much in the last 30 seconds, and it's alright that it's possible for a comeback to happen in that time - but that doesn't mean the rest of the 2:30 is irrelevant. For many, many reasons observable in many other competitive games & sports.
It's like a basketball game - they almost always come down to the wire, but that's what people love about it. The first 3 quarters are about setting up a lead if possible, gaining momentum, learning the opposing team, and so forth - a lot of counterplay and control happening.
In Turf Wars, two equally skilled teams at high levels of play will have even chances of controlling 50% of the map, and vying for those few %s more is where the intensity lies. If you let it slip, then recovering those lost %s gets harder and harder. The whole map becomes a control point, and each segment becomes a natural control point. If you don't take it this way, and see the mode as a 'goofy romp' instead just because it's unraked currently, then hopefully that doesn't actually influence action.
Turf wars is about controlling space. It's a giant Splatzone. Splatzones is a more straightforward and easily-digestible version of Turf Wars, where you focus on a few attributes on Turf Wars (space control, exclusively). Same goes for Tower Control - replace the 'space control' element with the 'pushing-the-lines' element from Turf Wars, and you get Tower Control.
Turf Wars is Splatoon off-the-rails, without the limitations we may feel are necessary when we look at other competitive FPSs. But it's not. Splatoon really is more of a DOTA-style control game, rather than a king-of-the-hill-style killfest. Tower Control and Splatzones are like Twisted Treeline in LoL, but the real emergent competitive scene lies in Turf Wars (ala Summoner's Rift). No training wheels. It'll take time to see that, but I expect this community will see it because it's obvious when you look at the game as its own thing rather than 'another shooter'.
You can only do so much in the last 30 seconds, and it's alright that it's possible for a comeback to happen in that time - but that doesn't mean the rest of the 2:30 is irrelevant. For many, many reasons observable in many other competitive games & sports.
It's like a basketball game - they almost always come down to the wire, but that's what people love about it. The first 3 quarters are about setting up a lead if possible, gaining momentum, learning the opposing team, and so forth - a lot of counterplay and control happening.
In Turf Wars, two equally skilled teams at high levels of play will have even chances of controlling 50% of the map, and vying for those few %s more is where the intensity lies. If you let it slip, then recovering those lost %s gets harder and harder. The whole map becomes a control point, and each segment becomes a natural control point. If you don't take it this way, and see the mode as a 'goofy romp' instead just because it's unraked currently, then hopefully that doesn't actually influence action.
Turf wars is about controlling space. It's a giant Splatzone. Splatzones is a more straightforward and easily-digestible version of Turf Wars, where you focus on a few attributes on Turf Wars (space control, exclusively). Same goes for Tower Control - replace the 'space control' element with the 'pushing-the-lines' element from Turf Wars, and you get Tower Control.
Turf Wars is Splatoon off-the-rails, without the limitations we may feel are necessary when we look at other competitive FPSs. But it's not. Splatoon really is more of a DOTA-style control game, rather than a king-of-the-hill-style killfest. Tower Control and Splatzones are like Twisted Treeline in LoL, but the real emergent competitive scene lies in Turf Wars (ala Summoner's Rift). No training wheels. It'll take time to see that, but I expect this community will see it because it's obvious when you look at the game as its own thing rather than 'another shooter'.
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The current ranked modes really do make things fun when teaming up with random people to compete. It has great value in focusing the tasks-at-hand and making things simple enough for a team of random friendlies to do. It's why people enjoy playing around on Twisted Treeline in LoL, objective modes in most shooters, and playing custom modes in StarCraft 2.
Turf Wars, however, allows for the most emergent and creative organized team-play in a competitive setting. It offers the rare things that the best competitive games do - offer an emergent arena for competitive organized play, with multiple objectives and an openness to strategic variety & counterplay. It's where the elements of the game best come together - it's the conceptual golden egg. That's what I'm excited about as a commentator, and what paints Splatoon's visionary competitive future.
The 1-dimensional objective point-control meta really isn't that interesting in other shooters, and is why the most successful competitive games currently out allow for emergent tactics. StarCraft, LoL/Dota, etc. Tower Control and Splatzones are just far too simple and one-note to have the legs that Splatoon has the potential to have.
By focusing on singular-objective gamemodes, it - at it's best - develops metas as interesting as other shooters with identical gamemodes. Meanwhile Turf Wars really is something more. Turf Wars would be far more varied, just like LoL/Dota and Starcraft, with organized competitive play and a developed metagame. That game mode is what lights that fire inside that makes me excited to see Splatoon played competitively at a high level down the road.
Turf Wars, however, allows for the most emergent and creative organized team-play in a competitive setting. It offers the rare things that the best competitive games do - offer an emergent arena for competitive organized play, with multiple objectives and an openness to strategic variety & counterplay. It's where the elements of the game best come together - it's the conceptual golden egg. That's what I'm excited about as a commentator, and what paints Splatoon's visionary competitive future.
The 1-dimensional objective point-control meta really isn't that interesting in other shooters, and is why the most successful competitive games currently out allow for emergent tactics. StarCraft, LoL/Dota, etc. Tower Control and Splatzones are just far too simple and one-note to have the legs that Splatoon has the potential to have.
By focusing on singular-objective gamemodes, it - at it's best - develops metas as interesting as other shooters with identical gamemodes. Meanwhile Turf Wars really is something more. Turf Wars would be far more varied, just like LoL/Dota and Starcraft, with organized competitive play and a developed metagame. That game mode is what lights that fire inside that makes me excited to see Splatoon played competitively at a high level down the road.
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Kowai Yume
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Well there's a reason people calls it Nintendo's TF2. Well that and hats.
Bad analogy, in basketball, if your wrecking the other team throughout the first 3 quarters, then unless you quit trying, you should ALWAYS come out on top, there shouldn't be a high potential for a comeback if it's 80-15 after 3. However, in Turf Wars, there have been MANY games I have played where one team was limiting the other team to their own spawn but suddenly they break out and win/almost win even though for most of the match it was say 80%-5%. If Turf Wars was adjusted so it was like Splatzones with the counter, but where the whole map was the Splatzone that'd probably work, but it isn't. Turf War right now is like if splatzones didn't have a counter and whoever controlled it at the 5 minute mark won.
In response to your 4th paragraph, inkstrikes ruin this mode, one well placed inkstrike can easily take back 10% (+5% for you -5% for them) and they can be launched after the timer so the other team can do nothing but look in horror.
That hypothetical argument ignores all of the play & counterplay of simultaneously building up a special charge & keeping it while continuing to fight for territory and push or defend. It hasn't worked throughout this thread and I don't find it convincing or important. There's a lot going on in TW and I don't see a point to simplifications and hyperbole with inkstrike armchair theorising. It's the tug of war, I suppose, between those who want a typical competitive shooter esports identity (cs:go, tf2), or a freeform strategy esports identity (mobas, starcraft, etc).
LoL has alternate gamemodes, but Summoner's Rift is what the game -is-. At it's core. Splatoon has the same relationship with Turf Wars, and the beauty of its design emerges as players use their tools in this sandbox. Board it up and direct the players down singular paths, and Tower Control and Splatzones are what you get. Great modes for focusing the efforts of random players in random teams, but just a slice of the organized-play depth and strat development & counterplay potential available with Turf Wars.
Tower Control and Splatzones at modes that, at high levels in other games, are moreso about which team can butt their heads harder. Entertaining and interesting, but in a specific sort of way. Mobas and Starcraft are games of intellect and emergent counter-play, which is what Turf Wars represents for Splatoon.
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Kowai Yume
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That's a good thing. That's why I've been lobbying for a similar format that UGC does for TF2 Highlander. For example one week teams will be playing matches on a Control Point map and next week they might be playing Payload. It's been kept that way for many seasons. This should be done in the first few season of comp Splatoons just to get a feel for competitive viability. One week teams may play turf war on Saltspray and another week they might play Tower Control at Port Mackerel.
stop saying that, Turf War right now will never be anything close to DOTA/LoL, MOBA games can last upwards of a 1/2 hour, while Turf Wars last 3 minutes, believe it or not 30 minutes gives you alot more time to counter attacks and develop strategies on the fly than 3 minutes. And I've shown Splatoon to several people (all non-gamers/light gamers) who all thought turf war was too random and less interesting compared to Tower Control where a strong first push can prompt both team to play differently and forces them to adapt to how they should be playing based on the current score, in Turf Wars that changing element is all but gone as no matter the situation, what you do the same, cover enemy turf. If we were winning 55-45 what would I do, go around covering turf, if it was 90-5 what would I do, go around covering turf. And defending in Turf Wars will get you nowhere, offence is the only thing that will get points, if you can make the other team start playing defence, it probably means your smoking them and getting too close to spawn for their comfort. Even if it was say 90-3, that 3 percent might give them the game if they were to break out spawn because it really doesn't take long to recover large amount of turf, I'd say, oh, about 30 seconds or so for just over half the map.
Snowboar
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You literally took the words out of my mouth. People need to get over the fact that Turf War doesn't have the label "Ranked" on it, therefore it can not be competitive.
If people want this game to have people watch them play on high level, you need to have entertaining content, Turf War is far more tactical and strategic than the other modes, it provides more possibilities to make something happen with your team. Unless people want Splatoon to turn into CS:GO, Turf war is probably the way to go.
I understand the passion (I've been there for melee, brawl, and SSB4's debates on stock counts). But there's nothing random about Turf Wars. The hyperbole and passion coming from some people doesn't make sense when lined up with the empirical truth of what the mode actually is.
In a hypothetical situation, Splatzones & Tower Control could be Unranked and would be seen as training wheels that focus the goals of random players whom are new to the game. Those modes would prevent the game from feeling overwhelming by virtue of having very simple objectives.
In that hypothetical situation, Turf Wars would be the "All In One deluxe mode" for ranked play where you have to use what you've learnt in Tower Control and Splatzones and use it in a freeform no-limits mode for competitive skilled play.
And that hypothetical reality makes just as much sense, if not more when you look at the depth & emergence the modes actually allow for when it comes to organized competitive play.
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you still haven't addressed the fact that the only deciding factor in Turf Wars is who has the most Turf when the timer runs out, and the fact that a 100%-0% lead could be erased in the last 30 seconds if someone were to get a quad/tri kill. I genuinely like Turf Wars, but it just doesn't have a place in competitve play. It's like Smash 1v1 with items, sure you could argue that it takes skill to use items properly and effectively, but the fact remains that a JV3 could be taken away just by getting lucky with the right items. Now this applies, to a lesser extent in Turf Wars, the better team won't always win a good portion of matches because it doesn't matter how good you are in the beginning or middle of a match, the only thing that makes a big difference is the last part of match where in say Slpatzones, .you can't really have last minute comebacks as it's always the team that held it for the longest that wins, not who held it at the end.
Snowboar
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Splatzones is literally programmed to have last second comebacks as it will add a penalty for losing the point + if you are behind and the timer runs out it gives you extra time to hold the point until you win, lose the point and you lose by 1. Please tell me how that's not a comeback mechanic.
About everyone trying to dismiss turf war with the last 30 seconds argument, if you have trouble holding your lead over the enemy team, how do you deserve the win then? Clearly you and your team weren't good enough to maintain your chokehold on the enemy team and lost. It's not like they magically gain skill whenever the timer hits 0:30.
if you give the argument inkstrikes, if the enemy team has 4 inkstrikes, you and your team should not allow them to fill their special guage, instead of going for turf yourself, you go for kills in that case. That's why Turf War is more fun to (at the very least) me, you actually get to think about what you should be doing, rather than have the game tell you where you should go (which is what the ranked modes do)
But hey, I'm sure you guys play this game for the depth it actually has, and not to have a substitute COD Clone. amirite.. /s
You're setting up a dichotomy that doesn't exist and would not be valid if it did. And even if this whole "fps vs not-fps" dichotomy were a thing, it's pretty ****ing obvious that the game should be treated like a shooter, since, y'know, it is a shooter.
League of Legends "is" Summoner's Rift because Summoner's Rift is what the game was designed and balanced around, as stated by Riot themselves and further implied by the fact that their self-run tournaments are entirely on that map. The key difference is that while people mentally connect Splatoon with Turf, the developers have indicated that the ranked modes are for competitive play, which is further reinforced by the fact that ranked gametypes do not include Turf.
Furthermore, you seem to be unaware that Turf is the only mode that we can reliably set up 4v4 matches in right now (else you wouldn't have dismissed the "armchair theorising" quite so readily), as though your complaints with zones and tower are any more valid by the same reasoning. Turf is the only mode that my group has been able to test in 4v4, and our games indicate that even the most stacked possible teams can easily lose through nothing more than a fluke that, while possibly preventable, was not accounted for due to there only so much that was possible to account for. In no mode but Turf can flukes determine games. In no mode but Turf is the team that suffered a setback on account of such a fluke denied an opportunity to respond. Turf is timed, and that's the problem. If there were a win condition (such as a percentage of your team's point score counting toward some total; say you control 40%, you get 4 points per second up to some maximum), it might be a viable gametype, because then the better team would be able to counterplay or mount a comeback. If there were at least some significant advantage to be gained by being ahead throughout the rest of the game, it might still be fine. There isn't, so it's not. The better you play, the more susceptible you are to a fluke. Flukes need to be balanced out and the team disadvantaged by a fluke need to be able to counterplay.
And yes, flukes are a thing. Spraying at a smoke grenade in CS:GO can land a double kill or it could miss completely, just like how popping up with an inkzooka cannot be reacted to and can win your team the game from an otherwise heavily disadvantaged position. You have no way of knowing in advance, but it would be consistent given identical preconditions. Perfect play is not a thing without perfect information, and this game does not have perfect information. Even if it were, latency would make it impossible. The safer you play, the less the enemy team needs in a fluke, given that safer play implies more territory conceded to the enemy team.
You bring up the commentator's perspective. Well, I can tell you from a player's perspective that if I'm playing turf, I'm going to leave nothing up to chance. I'm not going to use a single special for the first 2:30. I'm not going to do anything but throw grenades at a choke point after the initial mid fight has played out. I'm not going to challenge a spawn camp outside of building special and staying alive. I'm going to do everything in my power to make sure that when those last 30 seconds come around, I have the best possible chance to win. You might think that creativity and ~~~~~~~~~emergent gameplay~~~~~~~~~~~ is going to happen, but competitive players only really care about the W.
As an aside, I'd appreciate it if you left the buzz-words out of your future posts. We're here for debate, not press releases.
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What do you mean (I get your statement, but what side are you on, include all modes or not)?
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include all modes