Why Competitive Splatoon should use all Game Modes instead of one

[Box]

They don't matter because they don't have to do with what I'm talking about. You might like to talk about them, but they're not evidence of why turf war has problems as a competitive mode. And I did not contest them so it's annoying when you attribute that to me.

I'm not sure what more I can say here. Like I said, I think you understand what I'm saying. I just don't feel like having the 10 more or so back and forths necessary to come to an agreement about it.

I have no idea what you're talking about with this EJ stuff though. Who/what is that?

 

[Kaliafornia]

They don't matter because they don't have to do with what I'm talking about. You might like to talk about them, but they're not evidence of why turf war has problems as a competitive mode. And I did not contest them so it's annoying when you attribute that to me.

I'm not sure what more I can say here. Like I said, I think you understand what I'm saying. I just don't feel like having the 10 more or so back and forths necessary to come to an agreement about it.

I have no idea what you're talking about with this EJ stuff though. Who/what is that?

I already explained with details and examples how they do matter and do relate to what you are talking about. What you continuously failed to do is give me details and examples of how they don't. This is why the conversation isn't progressing, I can't do any more.

Also LOL nvm, don't worry about it.

I mean at the end of the day we both don't want to play Turf in competitions really, we are just disagreeing on the reasons why it shouldn't be played. Really no point in taking it further since we aren't getting anywhere.

 

[Kosaki]

Rainmaker confirmed uber dope with mic.
Let's do those SZ/TC/RM clanwars Kreygasm

 

[AnchorTea]

Just as a side note, I would like to mention that there is actually such a thing as competitive Rock Paper Scissors. I'm dead serious.

http://priceonomics.com/the-world-of-competitive-rock-paper-scissors/

So, is it possible to make a serious competition out of something that people would traditionally consider to be non-competitive? Yes. But does that mean that the game does not have flaws in its structure that allow players of lesser skill to win? No. (See the part of the article about tournament results.)

See ladies and gentlemen? THIS is one great example why ANYTHING vs. can be competitive. Freaking RPS, a game we all played when we were five, and now it is a competition for thousands. Even competitive eating exist. EATING. That's something that requires one person, and it somehow became competitive. Matt Stonie (current number comp eater) has a bunch of techs on how to eat faster, kinda like how we have tactics and techs to win more.

@CutestFish if you have a reason why anything vs. CAN'T be competitive. I would love to hear your point.

 

[CutestFish]

See ladies and gentlemen? THIS is one great example why ANYTHING vs. can be competitive. Freaking RPS, a game we all played when we were five, and now it is a competition for thousands. Even competitive eating exist. EATING. That's something that requires one person, and it somehow became competitive. Matt Stonie (current number comp eater) has a bunch of techs on how to eat faster, kinda like how we have tactics and techs to win more.

@CutestFish if you have a reason why anything vs. CAN'T be competitive. I would love to hear your point.

Whoa I've been tagged. Forgot this thread exists.

It's not a question of whether or not it can be competitive, any vs. can to some extent or another. The real concern is do you put Turf War in the same pot as Splat Zones, Tower Control, and potentially Rainmaker (especially if some mechanics were changed). I personally don't think so, and looking at my past arguments they were pretty bad. So let me try this again with a less inflammatory approach and better wording. Lets call Turf War, well TW, and clump the other modes found in ranked under one group just called ranked modes. There is a very clear and apparent difference in tempo between TW and the ranked modes. The ranked modes are very fast paced and have focuses on kills and singular objectives. In TW, the tempo is, by comparison, much slower and relaxed and the overall objective is 'everywhere' in a manor that makes it so you're always contributing as long as you're not dead.

I've already seen through the Ink or Sink tournament the difference in attitude playing in these different modes brings. I've watched many team's VODs of their games and its a very relaxed setting in TW with no real pressure being on the teams until the last 0:45 or so. Compared to the ranked modes (Rainmaker to be seen), where it's a constant pressured environment and at any point the entire momentum of the entire rest of the match can be changed. Going from TW to a ranked mode is almost like an entirely different game if you were to listen to player comms.

There's also the fact that the skills used in all the ranked modes are kinda similar to each other but extremely different from the skillset utilized in TW. I'd make a personal argument that the skillset used for TW is smaller overall than the skillset utilized for the ranked modes but I'll keep this as objective as possible.

Could there be Turf War tournaments and events? Sure, go for it, in fact I encourage it. But I think it has a seperate place from the other gamemodes due how numerous the differences between TW and the rest of the modes are. I know my team and many other S/S+ teams and players outright refuse TW and reluctantly go along with TW in tournaments due to a mixture of personal ideals and general disdain for the simpler and rather slow nature of TW.

I hope I articulated my viewpoints well but if I said something that makes no sense let me know, I typed this up at 6 AM my time.

 

[Kosaki]

I can tell Rainmaker is as competitive as the other ranked modes.

It's like Tower Control, with more freedom in your movement, yet it's still quite different from it in its approach. Especially because the maps are a lot different for most and the addition of the Rainmaker that can shoot big tornados of ink.
Rainmaker is probably the mode that relies the most on teamplay, since the player with the Rainmaker and the ones that protect him must work together really tight.

EDIT : In fact, Rainmaker is just as competitive as any team-based ball game can get.

 

[TheMH]

I was just about to create a thread about the competitive viability of the new Rainmaker mode, but I think this thread works as well.
I played some matches today and feared to see a lot of huge comebacks or very quick knockout wins, but most of the matches were actually rather tight. I still think this mode can have even more comeback potential than Turf once strategies evolve. On the other hand It's objective based and not timed, though, which makes it superior to Turf.

What do you think?

 

[unforgiven]

Hey everyone.

I don't think it's the right approach to fight over the definition of "Competitive Splatoon". By that I mean, being restrictive on the mode played and the team format used. When a game offer many options, players who enjoy them will likely to play them in a competitve environment.

I competed in online and LAN tournaments and ladders for Unreal Tournament for around ten years and never there was a single way to compete. Team Deathmatch and Capture the Flag were the main ones, but there also a lot of different formats and rules in these modes.
What I mean by format is: 1vs1, 2vs2, 4vs4 for DM and TDM and 2vs2 and 5vs5 for CTF.
What I mean by rules are options like friendly fire or even a mutator like Instagib.

Instead of being focused on a single mode and format: Splatoon should at least offer these:

• Turf War 4vs4
• Splat Zones 4vs4
• Tower Control 4vs4
• Rainmaker 4vs4

Maybe in the future, 2vs2 will become a thing in Splat Zones and people could want a ladder/tournament happening for it.

Note: I didn't read the whole thread, just the first and last page.

 

[Kosaki]

Splat Zones is quite dull in 2v2.
Tower Control is way more adapted for the short formats.

 

[unforgiven]

Splat Zones is quite dull in 2v2.
Tower Control is way more adapted for the short formats.

I just threw that idea like that, but I'm not familiar with 2vs2 play in Splatoon.

 

[Kosaki]

EDIT : Woops, wrong thread.

 

[AnchorTea]

Whoa I've been tagged. Forgot this thread exists.

It's not a question of whether or not it can be competitive, any vs. can to some extent or another. The real concern is do you put Turf War in the same pot as Splat Zones, Tower Control, and potentially Rainmaker (especially if some mechanics were changed). I personally don't think so, and looking at my past arguments they were pretty bad. So let me try this again with a less inflammatory approach and better wording. Lets call Turf War, well TW, and clump the other modes found in ranked under one group just called ranked modes. There is a very clear and apparent difference in tempo between TW and the ranked modes. The ranked modes are very fast paced and have focuses on kills and singular objectives. In TW, the tempo is, by comparison, much slower and relaxed and the overall objective is 'everywhere' in a manor that makes it so you're always contributing as long as you're not dead.

I've already seen through the Ink or Sink tournament the difference in attitude playing in these different modes brings. I've watched many team's VODs of their games and its a very relaxed setting in TW with no real pressure being on the teams until the last 0:45 or so. Compared to the ranked modes (Rainmaker to be seen), where it's a constant pressured environment and at any point the entire momentum of the entire rest of the match can be changed. Going from TW to a ranked mode is almost like an entirely different game if you were to listen to player comms.

There's also the fact that the skills used in all the ranked modes are kinda similar to each other but extremely different from the skillset utilized in TW. I'd make a personal argument that the skillset used for TW is smaller overall than the skillset utilized for the ranked modes but I'll keep this as objective as possible.

Could there be Turf War tournaments and events? Sure, go for it, in fact I encourage it. But I think it has a seperate place from the other gamemodes due how numerous the differences between TW and the rest of the modes are. I know my team and many other S/S+ teams and players outright refuse TW and reluctantly go along with TW in tournaments due to a mixture of personal ideals and general disdain for the simplistic and rather slow nature of TW.

I hope I articulated my viewpoints well but if I said something that makes no sense let me know, I typed this up at 6 AM my time.

TW seems slow and relaxed? It feels very fast paced to me. SZ feels intense for me, TW feels like an exciting Rat Race to me, and Rain feels very satisfying with carrying the statue and protecting others, for me of course. Like I said, I love all modes,

Anyway, the reason I did that is because they all can be competitive, and even if the Ranked modes have similarities, all of the modes are different. If you think about it, all of their objectives are quite different. (Like I said in the OP, plz tell me you read the entire OP btw)

Turf War objective is the entire map, literally.
Splat Zones is keeping control of a specific area(s), and can have a counter.
Tower Control has the objective that moves on it's own depending on both teams decisions.
RainMaker decides a win on either Teams based on the RainMaker holder's decisions.

The only similarities on every single mode is that 1. You can Super Jump 2. All weapons work the same 3. Kills matter 4. All of them have the same amount of players 5. You can cover turf. 6. Team work is important.

Five of those aren't super game changing. (Remember. Team Work is crucial)

I'll admit that I had my expectations a bit too high when I made this thread....

 

[Power]

Well I have been done arguing this for a while now, but this is my observation. It appears that Turf Wars may be slowly phased out from "competitive" play. There is quite a slew of dissatisfaction with it being in crucial rounds of the ink or sink tourney. We will just have to see how it plays out.

 

[CutestFish]

TW seems slow and relaxed? It feels very fast paced to me. SZ feels intense for me, TW feels like an exciting Rat Race to me, and Rain feels very satisfying with carrying the statue and protecting others, for me of course. Like I said, I love all modes,

Anyway, the reason I did that is because they all can be competitive, and even if the Ranked modes have similarities, all of the modes are different. If you think about it, all of their objectives are quite different. (Like I said in the OP, plz tell me you read the entire OP btw)

Turf War objective is the entire map, literally.
Splat Zones is keeping control of a specific area(s), and can have a counter.
Tower Control has the objective that moves on it's own depending on both teams decisions.
RainMaker decides a win on either Teams based on the RainMaker holder's decisions.

The only similarities on every single mode is that 1. You can Super Jump 2. All weapons work the same 3. Kills matter 4. All of them have the same amount of players 5. You can cover turf. 6. Team work is important.

Five of those aren't super game changing. (Remember. Team Work is crucial)

I'll admit that I had my expectations a bit too high when I made this thread....

I didn't say their objectives were the same, I said the pace at which the ranked modes are played are very different from Turf War. Points 2 and 3 of your similarities aren't really on point either. Point 2 'all weapons work the same' is a vast oversimplification. Some weapons work very well in certain modes and absolute piss in others (Blasters in TC, Aerosprays/Inkbrush in TW). Point 3 'kills matter' doesn't apply to the first 1:30 of TW, kills have a very minimal impact. Complete domination for the first 2 minutes followed by a teamwipe is easily game losing TW which is something found only in that mode and I think it's kind of bad for a competitive game, but thats moving away from objectivism.

Person: "I really want to join this tourney! Because I have been practicing Tower Control!"

TO: "No-can-do. Tower Control is illegal at all tourneys."

Person: "Why?"

TO: "Because Tower Control and all other Game Modes besides Rainmaker are considered casual and non-competitive."

Person: "What if I don't want to do Rainmaker?"

TO: "Oh well."

There's actually nothing wrong with that. If you wanna join someones tourney, you play by their rules. If you don't like their rules, don't participate and maybe host your own, like I did. People hosted TW tournaments so instead of demanding they accommodate me, like you're implying they should, I just didn't participate.

One last thing;

I'll admit that I had my expectations a bit too high when I made this thread....

That passive aggressive BS is really petty and undermines all your viewpoints.

 

[AnchorTea]

I didn't say their objectives were the same, I said the pace at which the ranked modes are played are very different from Turf War. Points 2 and 3 of your similarities aren't really on point either. Point 2 'all weapons work the same' is a vast oversimplification. Some weapons work very well in certain modes and absolute piss in others (Blasters in TC, Aerosprays/Inkbrush in TW). Point 3 'kills matter' doesn't apply to the first 1:30 of TW, kills have a very minimal impact. Complete domination for the first 2 minutes followed by a teamwipe is easily game losing TW which is something found only in that mode and I think it's kind of bad for a competitive game, but thats moving away from objectivism.


There's actually nothing wrong with that. If you wanna join someones tourney, you play by their rules. If you don't like their rules, don't participate and maybe host your own, like I did. People hosted TW tournaments so instead of demanding they accommodate me, like you're implying they should, I just didn't participate.

One last thing;



That passive aggressive BS is really petty and undermines all your viewpoints.

I wasn't being passive aggressive. I said that because this thread went from a discussion to complete insanity and I feel guilty about it. Not to prove anything about what you said.

I never indicated about the weapons skills. I will say some weapons work better than others in different modes and maps (*Cough**cough* Port Mackeral *cough*) Even Judd says this as well.

And you'll be surprised that kills matter so much in all of the modes. Even Turf War.

Let's say that this TW had a team, and two of the team members good at covering turf, but their main weakness is that they aren't good at approaching bad guys. Both of them keep getting splattered at least 2 times in a minute. Since Turf is technically quicker than all of the Ranked Battle's children. getting killed consistently can hinder a team greatly. Even if the last minute (or lower) only matters, you can push back the enemy team so that your team is at an advantage before that sweet last minute music starts playing. You will be at a higher priority.

I don't remember ever meant to say that all tournies need TW. I used that impromptu story as an example if one game mode is the only legal game mode within every. Single. Tourney (that's why I said that improved story is extremely specific). And there will be Comp Splatoon players who prefer Rain or SZ or Turf or TC or that one mode Nintendo kept as a surprise. (They're keeping one last mode. I gurantee it.) I'm sorry if that impromptu was misleading.

The cartoon character in your avatar is very familiar btw. (im guessing it's Steven Universe)

 

[seakingtheonixpected]

Yeah, everyone, let's try not getting killed in a close game of Turf war in the last 30sec.
Remember that if you retreat and avoid combat, that's ink your opponent can take.
And let's try remembering that engaging a fight still puts you at the risk of getting splatted yourself.
"Don't get killed" easier said than done I guess.

Yeah, basically, following your genius strat', the winners in this situation are the dudes that have the better range. Great, really. The turf war metagame has a bright future in your hands !

EDIT : I know I'm being a passive-agressive prick right now. But come on, let's do some efforts in making this debate intelligent and not just a laughable bad sarcasm fest.

I'm not a competitive player, but I do enjoy watching competitive play. So I probably shouldn't be involved in this debate anyway. All of my opinions are based on theory rather than practice.

I was just hoping organized competitive teams could do better than simply rushing face first into each other hoping they are the ones that get the ace. But I suppose I have no evidence better play is possible.

 

[flc]

friendly reminder to all that the ink or sink tournament is currently entering its second phase of turf wars. upper bracket round 4 and lower bracket round 3 are both taking place in the coming days, and many of the better teams in the western scene right now will be participating

also I'm curious as to why I never received any quote notifications from this thread after my last two posts

and I'm curious as to why arguments that I explicitly addressed are still being posted around, unmodified

 

[SlimyQuagsire]

also I'm curious as to why I never received any quote notifications from this thread after my last two posts

and I'm curious as to why arguments that I explicitly addressed are still being posted around, unmodified

welcome to Squidboards, please enjoy your stay

 

[flc]

welcome to Squidboards, please enjoy your stay

how about I try this again then

EVERY PERSON HERE NEEDS TO LEARN HOW TO CONCEDE POINTS IF WE ARE EVER GOING TO MAKE HEADWAY IN THIS DISCUSSION. IF YOU DON'T PLAY ACTIVELY IN THE COMPETITIVE SCENE YOU SHOULD PROBABLY JUST NOT POST HERE AT ALL, WHAT COULD YOU POSSIBLY CONTRIBUTE ANYWAY

 

[TheMH]

I agree with flc. As long as everyone keeps repeating the same arguments we won't get anywhere soon...

While I like Turf Wars, I think the new Rainmaker mode has a lot of similarities to Turf and makes Turf obsolete. In the matches I played so far almost always the team with the better map control had no problem taking and defending a lead. There were actually no huge comebacks as long as one team didn't get wiped completely. The rainmaker user is at a great disadvantage and can be taken out easily in close range, so he can't push quickly through enemy territory alone.