Final Smash Presentation Discussion

Flareth

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I for one don't have any problem with people not liking a character. That's fine, you can't please everybody, and with a diverse cast like Smash 4's there's bound to be some unfavorites here & there. Lord knows there's a few characters that I can't stand (for stupid reasons, admittedly). It's people who start attacking Sakurai and the devs for having the bloody nerve to add a character they don't like that I take issue with. It reeks of entitlement, which I cannot stand.

Of course, I get the feeling that a good portion of the hate is just displaced emotions from not getting X character in the game. Which is another problem, but it's one that I suffer from as well, so I can't really criticize it.
 

BlackZero

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THANK YOU.

I'm also sick of this anti-Corrin attitude for reasons including "too much FE", which needs more of an explanation as to why a franchise getting so much representation is "bad", "too many swords", an ironic argument considering Corrin's dragon transformation powers (a new thing for a Smash character, even if dragon people have been a longtime thing for the FE series) and the number of physical fighters and gun-users, and "the new FE sucks, FE is dead", an opinion that is not fact nor unanimously agreed upon by FE fans.
It's fan rage because their preferred character didn't make it into the game, compounded by Sakurai rather arbitrarily adding Corrin simply because he wanted to. That is his privilege as the developer, which is something people don't seem to understand. Neither Sakurai nor Nintendo owe anyone here a character. As the person who actually put the work in, he is completely entitled to say "y'know, I'd like to throw this character in there just for the hell of it." He added Snake to Brawl for personal reasons, and against all odds, the universe didn't completely implode.

For those ranting about how it's a cash grab move, it may be. So were Marth and Roy in Melee: they were added purely for marketing purposes. One could also argue that Pichu was also added for publicity. Somehow we all managed to survive the money-grubbing, cash grab that was Super Smash Bros. Melee, and Roy actually became a popular enough character that people wanted him back. People ranting about FE or sword users taking over are just upset that their characters didn't make it into the game.


Of course, I get the feeling that a good portion of the hate is just displaced emotions from not getting X character in the game. Which is another problem, but it's one that I suffer from as well, so I can't really criticize it.
Precisely. I just wish people would come out and say they were mad instead of somehow trying to make this sound like some poor game design choice or attacking Sakurai because of their own expectations and hype. Be honest with yourselves and let your frustrations out. Only then can the healing begin.
 

Of Moose & Men

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People ranting about FE or sword users taking over are just upset that their characters didn't make it into the game.
Weird how we have too many sword characters but not too many melee or projectile characters. It's almost like these people have little to no leg to stand on and are just upset because X didn't make it in. Wonder if Inklings made it in if we'd have "too many projectile users". . .

Probably.
 

PrinceOfKoopas

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That's an awful lot of butthurt over adding FE characters to Smash for long time fans. I would think fans would be happy for the series to receive the attention it deserves (imo, but ymmv). Personally, I was thrilled to see the Famicom Wars AT, because that meant there was a chance that people would become interested in the Advance Wars series again. I'd rather games I love get representation in Smash than not. It shows me that they are still relevant, but that's just me. I suppose you'd be equally incensed if they added Sigurd, Nephenee, or Tana? Don't say it's because they aren't all sword users: they would be the same class of fighter. Were you upset by the Black Knight Mii outfit? I don't recall seeing the same level of outrage over that, either. I also don't recall hearing this much anti-FE rage until after Corrin was announced. Coincidentally, that was right about the same time the fans learned their favored character didn't make the cut. The plot thickens...

You also keep saying there are too many sword users in Smash. I'm afraid that argument doesn't hold water for two reasons. First, the number of sword users is dramatically less than both "shooter" and "brawler" character types. Second, Smash is a collection of different Nintendo series and characters from those series. I'm not sure if you're aware of this, but swords are a pretty big deal in Japan (and most of the world) and a lot of games use them as a hero's trademark. If we put an arbitrary limit on the number of sword users in a game that features a collection of Nintendo's stars, a lot of potentially deserving games and characters are going to get screwed. There is no such thing as "too many sword users" in Smash, because the roster reflects popular franchises. I would rather they leave the "sword limit" open and add characters they think deserve a slot than introduce some kind of quota system where they have to maintain a certain ratio of shooter/brawler/sword characters.

Really, the whole too many swords complaint smacks of either "doesn't like Fire Emblem" or "Unpleasable Fan." To quote this Reddit thread:



Thus, the percentage of sword users has remained proportionally consistent throughout the series. Now then, can we get off this "too many swords" horse? It's been ridden into the ground.
Nice attacking a total strawman, there!
 

BlackZero

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Nice attacking a total strawman, there!
Attacking Strawman? Let's review:

no it's only a problem when it just means more sword wielders stabbing you in the face
If Ike wasn't in Smash 4 then the entire Fire Emblem representation there wouldn't be worth having.

Awakening isn't a story-driven game. The story (especially it's story-telling) is a total joke, and even the developers acknowledged that in the Iwata Asks for Fire Emblem: Fates.
i would just like some more variety in weapon users i guess....this isn't soul calibur
and yet we just got the sword users in Smash...go figure hell i would have loved an axe wielder or a lance in smash instead of just swords swords and more swords
f Kersti became a playable character in Smash 4 and we objected (too many plumber-series characters and from a really bad game, along with having no character), it's not because we dislike the greater series.
I haven't built up a deliberately weak argument and implied it was your main view. Unless I am losing my command of the English language, your and Cadet's position seems quite unambiguously clear. I may have been a bit too direct, but "attacking strawman" is a bit of an embellishment unless you are going to explain to me how all the above does not indicate you feel there are too many sword users in the game and that you don't care for the addition of Corrin because you don't like the new FE games.
 

PrinceOfKoopas

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Attacking Strawman? Let's review:

I haven't built up a deliberately weak argument and implied it was your main view. Unless I am losing my command of the English language, your and Cadet's position seems quite unambiguously clear. I may have been a bit too direct, but "attacking strawman" is a bit of an embellishment unless you are going to explain to me how all the above does not indicate you feel there are too many sword users in the game and that you don't care for the addition of Corrin because you don't like the new FE games.
Well, let's be clear.
I'm not Cadet.

...Now we have that part settled.

The position I've offered is that:
1. There are too many Fire Emblem characters if we care about equitable treatment (proportional to importance or even ease of putting them in).
2. Corrin continues the trend of shoving the worse part of the Fire Emblem series.

I don't really care about the sword thing, but it's a completely disingenuous argument on your part to imply that the "brawler" and "shooter" characters have as much in common with one another as the sword-fighters do.
And the complaint isn't really all sword-fighters. It's sword-fighters from the Fire Emblem series. Which people have been saying is more than just swords ever since Super Smash Bros. Brawl. Don't pretend this complaint is new, because it's not.

It's a total strawman to say I'm against Corrin because I have "rage" that my chosen character didn't get in. I didn't like the idea of the Smash Ballot to begin with!
I voted for Phoenix Wright. Obviously I knew he wasn't going to get in. He's the person I want the most, but I had a feeling they wouldn't let THREE Capcom characters in. (There's a better chance of having Nintendo Vs. Capcom be a game.)

As a (former) Fire Emblem fan, I don't think it "deserves" six characters. I don't think it "deserved" four, either. A lot of folks thought that way, too. Back in 2013, the only Fire Emblem character I wanted to add to Marth + Ike was Micaiah. ...And I knew that wouldn't play out that way either.
(I really was happy that the Black Knight got to be a Mii costume! Was hoping he'd be a boss in Subspace Emissary back in 2008, but alas...)


I'm well, well aware that Sakurai is free to choose whoever the hell he wants. If he wants to promote the new (unreleased) Fire Emblem game in every other Smash game, he can do that. The caveat is we're free to question his judgment.

I would like to think that the same people who are upset at Corrin are also upset at Roy. I know I am! And I was ecstatic to see Chrom humiliated in the Robin/Lucina trailer.
 

Draayder

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I think along with it being an issue of a whole lot of sword users from a series that is all about weapon variety (you've even got characters like the manaketes and laguz who use NO WEAPONS and solely transform into dragons/various animals to attack) and the fact that there's THREE Marth clones running around to rep the series.

Heck, the FE crew makes the number of sword users look worse just by having so many same-y sword users. When you look at Link vs Cloud vs Meta Knight vs Ike you get pretty different characters even if they all primarily use a sword, but when you gotta throw in 3 Marths and then two reps from games most long standing FE fans are neutral on at best? It just gets really tiresome.

Series size-wise FE doesn't have anywhere near the sales to be having that many reps, it's tied with pokemon for crying out loud. Pokemon! To really drive home the point here's an excerpt from the list of top selling nintendo franchises.



 

Of Moose & Men

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Well, I mean, if sales numbers defines the amount of characters should be represented, let's completely remove Lucas.

We've gone over why Corrin was added, much like a vast majority of the characters, they were added to promote the upcoming game. Greninja did it, Lucario did it at the time, Olimar has done it, the list continues. Smash Bros is a game all about marketing. Simple as that. I mean, yea, it's a fun fighting game, but it's a fighting game that makes the player curious about other Franchises. You can whine, and complain all you want but that's the truth. Could/should they have added the Inklings? Absolutely, but it's a new IP and requires a bit of time before they go in guns a blazing. There aren't really any other games coming any time soon, that have characters that could be added. Wolf likely will not be in the upcoming Star Fox, who knows who we'll see in the next LoZ, and other than that we don't really have too many big name games coming out. Thus, Corrin is the closest thing they'd have. I'm sure no one can deny Corrin will be a badass character to have.

Smash Bros is a marketing campaign for getting the players into other franchises, let us not forget that.
 

PrinceOfKoopas

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They could've put Linkle or something in.

Not that I would support that, but they just as easily could've!

Also, the "new IP" shtick didn't seem to bother Roy, who had a game so removed from its previous iterations (how do you go from FE4/FE5 to FE6?) and was only in one region of the world.

There was over a whole year between Diamond/Pearl and Brawl coming out don't gimme that. Olimar was there to promote a game that'd come out on another system over four years later??!?

I'm well-aware that it's huge for marketing, which is why I'm bothered that Fire Emblem got it twice in a row. Give another series a chance.

Like Donkey Kong. How do you release DKCR and DKC:TF and all you have to show for it is having 8 Jungle remixes and removing 2/5 of the DK Rap?
 

BlackZero

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There are too many Fire Emblem characters if we care about equitable treatment (proportional to importance or even ease of putting them in).
There is nothing to indicate Super Smash Bros. or Sakurai is interested in equal representation of franchises, nor is that anything I have asserted.

Corrin continues the trend of shoving the worse part of the Fire Emblem series.
First, this is subjective. Second, Fire Emblem Fates isn't even out yet in the US or EU. Unless you've played the Japanese release, you can only base your assessment on rumors. It is typically considered poor form for a person to pass judgement on a game they haven't even played, and I personally would not take such an opinion seriously. If you have played the Japanese release, then it is still subjective. Whether the current formula makes everyone happy or not, it made enough people happy that Nintendo decided to use it again.

Don't pretend this complaint is new, because it's not.
Please show me where I have indicated such.

It's a total strawman to say I'm against Corrin because I have "rage" that my chosen character didn't get in. I didn't like the idea of the Smash Ballot to begin with!
I voted for Phoenix Wright. Obviously I knew he wasn't going to get in. He's the person I want the most, but I had a feeling they wouldn't let THREE Capcom characters in. (There's a better chance of having Nintendo Vs. Capcom be a game.)
I don't think so. Are you going to tell me that the anti-Corrin mobs are ambivalent? This may not apply to you specifically, but then again, my post wasn't aimed only at you.

As a (former) Fire Emblem fan, I don't think it "deserves" six characters. I don't think it "deserved" four, either. A lot of folks thought that way, too. Back in 2013, the only Fire Emblem character I wanted to add to Marth + Ike was Micaiah. ...And I knew that wouldn't play out that way either.
(I really was happy that the Black Knight got to be a Mii costume! Was hoping he'd be a boss in Subspace Emissary back in 2008, but alas...)
Again, this is subjective. Nintendo begs to differ, and it's their vote that counts.

If he wants to promote the new (unreleased) Fire Emblem game in every other Smash game, he can do that. The caveat is we're free to question his judgment.
I would agree with you if this criticism had anything to do with the actual entertainment value of the game. Including Corrin literally has no bearing on how fun the game is. It's one thing to offer legitimate criticism of a game because it isn't fun or fails to implement certain features well. It's something else to voice displeasure about arbitrary creative decisions that do not actually impact objective qualities of the game and call it criticism. I ask you quite honestly, how does including Corrin (as a purely optional DLC, no less) make SSB4 no longer fun to play? If it doesn't, then people are not offering criticism that Sakurai can use to improve the next game; they're simply complaining about a character they didn't want that they are not under any obligation to download and use. That's a bit like complaining about a steak you don't have to order or pay for and no one is forcing you to eat simply because it's steak and there are already three other steak dishes on the menu. How does that help the chef do better next time?

We aren't talking about the very annoying tripping mechanic in Brawl, or even exploits like Wavedashing that competitive players can use to get one over on casuals. We aren't even talking about a character that was added to the core game. We're talking about a purely optional DLC character that Sakurai added to the game just because he wanted to, and did so in a way that the character wasn't even forced on people who didn't want him. I actually think that was rather considerate of him, making a "just because" character optional content in case people didn't want it or didn't like Fire Emblem. I think that's what gets me so annoyed about this. Sakurai is very clearly not forcing this character on anyone, yet people are losing their minds as if he were putting a gun to everyone's head and making them download Corrin. Oh well, you know what they say: the dog that bites the hand that feeds it often licks the boot that kicks it.
 

Of Moose & Men

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Lol, keep grasping at straws dude. . .

The point is those characters were used to promote the game. There is no doubt about that. It is no different here.
 

PrinceOfKoopas

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I can say with all seriousness that including Pac-Man in the game has made it less fun for me. Same with Sonic. I'm not forced to play as either (except for, y'know, 100% completion which the game hangs over your head) but I am forced to be influenced by their existence thanks to things like online play and random stage selections (I hate just being in the Pac-Man stage with its awful music and environment). It's a false argument to say that the content is just silo'd off only to those who like it.

Obviously what I'm saying is subjective. Subjectivity doesn't make it less valid. This discussion wouldn't exist without subjectivity.

I did say "if" we cared about equity. It's up to an individual person if they value that. Sakurai clearly doesn't.

"People ranting about FE or sword users taking over are just upset that their characters didn't make it into the game."

I took that to mean "as of Smash Ballot" since "their characters" wasn't a thing until you could try to take ownership of a character's base of support like you can in an "election".

You said, "There is no such thing as 'too many sword users' in Smash, because the roster reflects popular franchises."

It doesn't reflect popular franchises. If it did reflect popularity, it would be grounded in that equity we just dismissed.
As you said, it reflects whatever Sakurai wants to put in there. Sakurai's tastes aren't mainstream! (Neither are mine, but still!)

People angry about their character not getting in should be mad at Bayonetta, not Corrin. Anger at Corrin represents distaste at Sakurai's bias and a rejection of the disgusting direction Fire Emblem has gone.
Different things. Don't confuse 'em.
 

Kayura05

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What this all amounts to is that you didn't like the series and don't feel FE characters should be added because of that. That's perfectly fine, just say you don't like the series. I don't believe that is grounds for saying a character shouldn't be in Smash though. I personally don't like the Game & Watch games, but acknowledge their significance to Nintendo's history and feel Mr. Game & Watch is a good character. I wasn't sold on Cpt. Olimar as a Smash character, but including him hasn't done anything to make the game less fun. Earthbound hasn't seen a release since the SNES afaik, yet it gets quite a bit of representation. So what?
That's not a fair statement to make at all really. You are assuming that the only reasons anyone would be upset with Corrin are due to jealousy over other characters getting in and that is pure opinion without much fact to back it up. There are several reasons why I feel Corrin was a poor choice, many of them the same reasons echoed by others but I will get to that.

The argument of not liking Game & Watch, Olimar or Nes/Lucas don't properly compare to Corrins situation because not only is Fire Emblem not as big or significant a franchise as these other series but there were already 5 other characters from his respective franchise. To remove the possibility of a new player from either a under represented franchise or a new one just to market a new game can certainly rub players the wrong way.

I don't understand why so many people feel entitled to a game that only has what they want and nothing else. Nintendo isn't obligated to tailor a game to each buyer. They are the developers. They are the ones putting up money and investing time and effort into these projects. As the content creators, they have the prerogative to add or remove any characters they see fit. If you are that upset with their creative decisions, take up modding and add whatever content to the game you want. Light a candle instead of cursing the darkness.
I am no fan of entitlement but being a consumer who is being asked to part with money for a product should be reason enough to want to have a say in how the product turns out, this wasn't a matter of trying to deny other users a character from a franchise but wanting something else interesting added to a franchise they love. Of course creators have the final say in all things but people are allowed to criticize those decisions.

Also they specifically asked players what they wanted, and with that invitation you are open to people not liking what is offered. That's hardly a new concept.

[QUTOE]People weren't happy with how Brawl turned out. Some people simply kvetched and complained. Others decided to do something about it. That's how we got Project M and countless stage and fighter mods. In the end, the only person who can make a game that suits you is you. There's a wealth of information and resources out there for people looking to mod games. I'd recommend you guys go through some of it and start tweaking games to fit your particular tastes. This way, your enjoyment of a game doesn't rely entirely on Nintendo adding a character you want or omitting one you don't like.[/QUOTE]

You act as if not liking the character choice and stating so is tantamount to calling for the game to be boycotted or something. Most of those complaining are doing so because at end of the day they care about the game and will continue to play. Most people aren't advocating jumping ship over Corrin or Bayonetta...

We do like the vast majority of the series.

That's like saying we don't like the PM series because we bash Sticker Star. If Kersti became a playable character in Smash 4 and we objected (too many plumber-series characters and from a really bad game, along with having no character), it's not because we dislike the greater series.
Basically.
That's an awful lot of butthurt over adding FE characters to Smash for long time fans. I would think fans would be happy for the series to receive the attention it deserves (imo, but ymmv). Personally, I was thrilled to see the Famicom Wars AT, because that meant there was a chance that people would become interested in the Advance Wars series again. I'd rather games I love get representation in Smash than not. It shows me that they are still relevant, but that's just me. I suppose you'd be equally incensed if they added Sigurd, Nephenee, or Tana? Don't say it's because they aren't all sword users: they would be the same class of fighter. Were you upset by the Black Knight Mii outfit? I don't recall seeing the same level of outrage over that, either. I also don't recall hearing this much anti-FE rage until after Corrin was announced. Coincidentally, that was right about the same time the fans learned their favored character didn't make the cut. The plot thickens...
If Fire Emblem didn't already have 5 other characters representing it then you MIGHT have a point, but it seems like you're angry that a lot of people didn't think Corrin deserved a spot. You brought up Advance Wars but like I stated above you are comparing games with ZERO reps to a series that has 6. You didn't see any anger over the Black Knight costume because there was no need for it. A costume and a full blown character are again hardly comparable.

I can understand the anti FE sentiment because of what seems like the potential for other fighters being replaced with 'generic sword fighter' characters. If they were going to keep this many FE characters then they could of at least added other types of warriors. Snipers, Assassins, Wyvern Riders, etc. The timing of Corrins release has a lot to do with the backlash as well. I cannot reiterate enough that this has more to do with the number of series reps than with the series itself.

Really, the whole too many swords complaint smacks of either "doesn't like Fire Emblem" or "Unpleasable Fan." To quote this Reddit thread:


Thus, the percentage of sword users has remained proportionally consistent throughout the series. Now then, can we get off this "too many swords" horse? It's been ridden into the ground.
This argument holds more water than you are willing to give it credit for. The problem is the similarity of the sword fighters from FE as well. Robin is actually unique and Corrin is too but the same cannot be said for the rest. The other ranged and brawler characters again are all different and have abilities and gimmicks that make them completely unique from each other in some way. Captain Falcon, Little Mac and Ryu are all brawler type characters but play so differently that it would be ridiculous to say they are the same.

My view of the Corrin situation boils down to a few things for me:

1.I don't care for Corrin so I simply won't buy the character.
2.I feel there are more than enough reps for FE but I understand this was done purely for marketing reasons.
3.Corrin is at least more unique than other FE reps but it's not a good enough reason for me to want him.
4.Corrin being released in the last batch of DLC characters is what's making people upset at FE, this was never about FE hate from the start as these characters had almost always been there.
5.Corrin criticism =/= FE hate or 'butthurt' automatically.
6.This has nothing to do with a series popularity.
 

Flareth

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@PrinceOfKoopas's post just reminded me... I faintly remember people bitching around this time last year about Sakurai's bias, but it wasn't about Fire Emblem. Apparently the fact that the Kid Icarus series had a clone in Dark Pit and 17 Smash Run enemies was enough to convince people that he put them in because of a" KI bias," arguing that it wasn't a big enough series to have so much content in the game.

I imagine that if K. Rool & Ridley ever get in, those same people will ***** about how "two series that don't sell well in Japan don't deserve more reps," whatever reasons for their inclusion given in the past be damned.

And like I said a few pages ago,
I swear the "FE Bias" only became a thing because of Lucina.
Had they ran with the original idea to have Lucina as just an alt skin for Marth, I can almost guarantee that nobody would be bit—oh wait, no, I'm mistaken. These people would still *****, but Fire Emblem's "over-representation" wouldn't be one of the reasons.

Dare I say it? I'm led to believe those people have it out for Sakurai & the devs. They won't be happy until he stops making games at all.
 

PrinceOfKoopas

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It's not about series popularity...
...It's about whatever series Sakurai wants to bless with "The Smash Boost".
(Thanks for putting Captain Falcon in SSB64, Sakurai!)

Edit: I'm well-aware that people used the same line to refer to the Smash Bros. 3DS Kid Icarus content. That line of complaining lasted about as long as Super Smash Bros. For 3DS was the only Smash 4 version.
But it did creep back up momentarily when I thought the Bayonetta reveal was going to be another Kid Icarus character with how that trailer started...!
 

Of Moose & Men

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It's not about series popularity...
...It's about whatever series Sakurai wants to bless with "The Smash Boost".
(Thanks for putting Captain Falcon in SSB64, Sakurai!)

Edit: I'm well-aware that people used the same line to refer to the Smash Bros. 3DS Kid Icarus content. That line of complaining lasted about as long as Super Smash Bros. For 3DS was the only Smash 4 version.
But it did creep back up momentarily when I thought the Bayonetta reveal was going to be another Kid Icarus character with how that trailer started...!
Yea, god forbid he did what he wants with the game he created!
 

PrinceOfKoopas

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Yea, god forbid he did what he wants with the game he created!
...

Anyway,
@Flareth mentioned that people are out to get Sakurai or something. Lemme tell ya: Sakurai is one of my favourite game developers of all time. If not my top favourite.
The man has said repeatedly he doesn't want to be working on another SSB. Some corporate interest out there put him on making new DLC after the game came out even though he should be having a vacation, especially with his injuries. Everyone acted all concerned about Sakurai's injuries, until they realised he needed to be around for DLC. Then they just ignored their sympathies and proceeded to treat him like a content-producing machine.

Let Sakurai do what he wants (and let him RECOVER). Which means stop being the director of Smash and let him do creative projects like Meteos, or whatever he wants to do. He dang quit Nintendo to begin with over making sequel after sequel.
 

Kayura05

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There is nothing to indicate Super Smash Bros. or Sakurai is interested in equal representation of franchises, nor is that anything I have asserted.
Which is why he said 'we' and not they. Sakurai obviously has no issue with series favoritism but fans do. We want more variety from more places, including third party, which is why they gave us Cloud and Ryu. That said, this is why the ballot was both a good and bad thing for some. In my own eyes it was more of a suggestion box they were never going to strictly adhere to that also drummed up added interest in a year old game. For those of us who know what the Smash community is like we know how excited this made people and got those who may not normally be interested in Smash to pay attention.

First, this is subjective. Second, Fire Emblem Fates isn't even out yet in the US or EU. Unless you've played the Japanese release, you can only base your assessment on rumors. It is typically considered poor form for a person to pass judgement on a game they haven't even played, and I personally would not take such an opinion seriously. If you have played the Japanese release, then it is still subjective. Whether the current formula makes everyone happy or not, it made enough people happy that Nintendo decided to use it again.
It is subjective but it's also how people feel, that's how opinions on things like this operate basically. For some long time FE fans Fates and Awakening are considered to be poorer games than previous installments. Now people fall on either extreme when discussing this or fall somewhere in the middle. Awakening focused more on romance and casual play than more players were comfortable with while the main game seemed to suffer. Before going to the internet to see peoples opinion on the games overall quality I had been jokingly been referring to Awakening as 'Waifu Emblem' myself. I know people who like the game but recognize why other players made that joke. Now I am in no way against adding modes that make traditionally difficult games more accessible to new players, but Fates (while admittedly trying to appeal to both player bases) seems like more of what made Awakening less enjoyable for long time players. The artstyle, less focused story, poorly written characters and battle system simply turned some players off. Despite that it drew in new customers for the series and retained enough of the old ones, so for better or worse this new type of FE game will be here to stay for a while.


Please show me where I have indicated such.
He may be referring to the way you are treating this situation as if it were somehow an over the top response to customers not being satisfied with a product. Criticism and complaints are par for the course when people go into detail (or not) about why they don't like something. Does that mean that every complaint or expression is valid? No, but opinions rarely have to be.

I don't think so. Are you going to tell me that the anti-Corrin mobs are ambivalent? This may not apply to you specifically, but then again, my post wasn't aimed only at you.
Be honest. This was never going to be a situation where everyone was going to have the same reasons for liking/disliking a character. People who dislike ANYTHING are never going to have a hive mind reason for doing so.

Again, this is subjective. Nintendo begs to differ, and it's their vote that counts.
I believe that is why he put deserves in quotation marks, he was acknowledging that it was his opinion. For me it's not a matter of deserving but of variety, yes both Mario and Pokemon have a lot of reps as well but by and large each character added is way different that the last. Admittedly you wouldn't find me complaning if Jigglypuff disappeared...

I would agree with you if this criticism had anything to do with the actual entertainment value of the game. Including Corrin literally has no bearing on how fun the game is. It's one thing to offer legitimate criticism of a game because it isn't fun or fails to implement certain features well. It's something else to voice displeasure about arbitrary creative decisions that do not actually impact objective qualities of the game and call it criticism. I ask you quite honestly, how does including Corrin (as a purely optional DLC, no less) make SSB4 no longer fun to play? If it doesn't, then people are not offering criticism that Sakurai can use to improve the next game; they're simply complaining about a character they didn't want that they are not under any obligation to download and use. That's a bit like complaining about a steak you don't have to order or pay for and no one is forcing you to eat simply because it's steak and there are already three other steak dishes on the menu. How does that help the chef do better next time?
Yes but isn't 'fun' subjective? ;)

There is nothing to say you can't criticize something as long as it works. A car can run perfectly, have great mileage and get me where I need to go but I am within my right to not purchase it if it is not the right make. model, or color I like. While you can't please everyone and a car maker may not feel obliged to improve the car I can still complain about it being ugly and not buy it.

We aren't talking about the very annoying tripping mechanic in Brawl, or even exploits like Wavedashing that competitive players can use to get one over on casuals. We aren't even talking about a character that was added to the core game. We're talking about a purely optional DLC character that Sakurai added to the game just because he wanted to, and did so in a way that the character wasn't even forced on people who didn't want him. I actually think that was rather considerate of him, making a "just because" character optional content in case people didn't want it or didn't like Fire Emblem. I think that's what gets me so annoyed about this. Sakurai is very clearly not forcing this character on anyone, yet people are losing their minds as if he were putting a gun to everyone's head and making them download Corrin. Oh well, you know what they say: the dog that bites the hand that feeds it often licks the boot that kicks it.
I don't feel it's worth being upset about. Personally I would have preferred other characters getting in, you won't catch me losing any sleep over it. I don't even think people are as irrationally angry as you imply because it's not that serious. Both sides of the argument have legitimate points though I feel people are greatly over simplifying why some people don't like the final choices. Being optional is nice but ultimately if Corrin was a main series character doesn't really matter in the end. What's done is done but I feel there were better choices to be made. I don't care for Bayonetta either but whatever, hopefully next time we get even more franchises in the mix.

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BlackZero

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I can say with all seriousness that including Pac-Man in the game has made it less fun for me. Same with Sonic. I'm not forced to play as either (except for, y'know, 100% completion which the game hangs over your head) but I am forced to be influenced by their existence thanks to things like online play and random stage selections (I hate just being in the Pac-Man stage with its awful music and environment).
...really?

It's a false argument to say that the content is just silo'd off only to those who like it.
When they are optional DLC, they actually are "silo'd off" to people who like them.

Obviously what I'm saying is subjective. Subjectivity doesn't make it less valid.
By definition, it does.Subjectivity means that any arguments for or against Awakening being a bad game are based purely on the premise of quia ego sic dico. You didn't like Awakening? Many people did. How is your opinion more valid than theirs? It isn't. It may be to you, but their opinion means more to them than yours does. This is why subjective opinions aren't considered valid: there's no way to establish which is more credible.

It doesn't reflect popular franchises. If it did reflect popularity, it would be grounded in that equity we just dismissed.
As you said, it reflects whatever Sakurai wants to put in there. Sakurai's tastes aren't mainstream! (Neither are mine, but still!)
SSB includes all of the major franchises and pays special attention to the most popular of the time with an eye for marketing. That does not mean in any way that they get equal representation. It means that SSB incorporates Nintendo's best and most successful franchises. Sakurai includes Nintendo's best and brightest while taking creative and personal liberties.

People angry about their character not getting in should be mad at Bayonetta, not Corrin. Anger at Corrin represents distaste at Sakurai's bias and a rejection of the disgusting direction Fire Emblem has gone.
Different things. Don't confuse 'em.
I guess we simply see things differently. I'm used to modding. If there's something I don't like about a game, I change it rather than make a fuss to the creator for being human and having bias. I don't see the point in getting upset over these things, because there is always the option to redo it the way you want it done. I suppose not everyone shares this line of thinking.

That's not a fair statement to make at all really. You are assuming that the only reasons anyone would be upset with Corrin are due to jealousy over other characters getting in and that is pure opinion without much fact to back it up. There are several reasons why I feel Corrin was a poor choice, many of them the same reasons echoed by others but I will get to that.
I am basing my assumption on the multiple articles, ranty forum posts (not here specifically), and Reddit comments I've read. The common theme is "why Corrin instead of X, Y, or Z!?"

I am no fan of entitlement but being a consumer who is being asked to part with money for a product should be reason enough to want to have a say in how the product turns out
Not exactly. As a consumer, it's your obligation to make sure you're making a good purchase. As a seller, it's Nintendo's obligation to fairly represent their product. This way, you can make an informed choice on what you buy. Unless Nintendo starts taking special orders for games, the greatest extent of influence consumers have is whether or not they buy something. If Corrin DLC has truly ruined SSB4 for people, they should vote with their wallets by taking the game back for a refund rather than bellyaching on the internet. I suspect these people aren't that upset though.

this wasn't a matter of trying to deny other users a character from a franchise but wanting something else interesting added to a franchise they love. Of course creators have the final say in all things but people are allowed to criticize those decisions.
Please read what I wrote about criticism.

Also they specifically asked players what they wanted, and with that invitation you are open to people not liking what is offered. That's hardly a new concept.
Corrin was not a poll character. Sakurai added him simply because he wanted to or for marketing reasons. My whole point is that Sakurai should be allowed to do something like this without facing a ****storm.

You act as if not liking the character choice and stating so is tantamount to calling for the game to be boycotted or something. Most of those complaining are doing so because at end of the day they care about the game and will continue to play. Most people aren't advocating jumping ship over Corrin or Bayonetta...
I was citing an example of people who didn't like creative decisions the devs made, so they modified the game to suit their tastes. I thought that was rather clear. If anything I say is confusing, please ask for clarification instead of putting words in my mouth.

If Fire Emblem didn't already have 5 other characters representing it then you MIGHT have a point, but it seems like you're angry that a lot of people didn't think Corrin deserved a spot.
Again, do not put words in my mouth. I will not do that to you, and I expect the same courtesy in return. I am not angry about people not liking Corrin. I'm annoyed the entitlement people are showing. This is an optional character that the dev put in for whatever reason, and people are acting as though Sakurai had no right to do this. I am not talking about this forum specifically (though there are some people who seem to think this way here). That is what annoys me: content creators should be allowed some arbitrary decisions without a bunch of fans who want to have the game made to their exact specifications raise hell over it.

I can understand the anti FE sentiment because of what seems like the potential for other fighters being replaced with 'generic sword fighter' characters. If they were going to keep this many FE characters then they could of at least added other types of warriors. Snipers, Assassins, Wyvern Riders, etc. The timing of Corrins release has a lot to do with the backlash as well. I cannot reiterate enough that this has more to do with the number of series reps than with the series itself.
Then don't get the DLC. That's all there is to it. Again, we have the content creator adding someone he wanted and people seem to think he has no grounds to do this because, as fans, their opinion matters more. I really don't see the problem with Sakurai taking liberties with his own series.

Yes but isn't 'fun' subjective? ;)
"Fun" may not be the right word. Most people I've encountered who are upset about this are trying to turn this into a flaw of the game rather than a matter of taste. There's noting wrong with not liking something. I just think people should come out and say they don't like something rather than hiding personal preferences behind a facade of "technical analysis" of why something is bad.
 

Of Moose & Men

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I just think people should come out and say they don't like something rather than hiding personal preferences behind a facade of "technical analysis" of why something is bad.

This.
People can mope about Corrin being added all day. That's fine, you don't like the character? That's unfortunate. But trying to make it seem like your distaste is because it's "another sword fighter", or "another Fire Emblem character" just seems like people trying to avoid saying flat out they dislike the character. Thing is, those statements REALLY stretch as they can be applied to most characters. "Great, another Pokemon", "terrific another projectile user", "Oh yay! Another inferior Cpt. Falcon", etc. Having 6 Pokemon isn't a problem. . . Why? "Because they sell more Pokemon games!" No, because you like and don't mind Pokemon characters. Characters aren't decided by how many units the franchise has sold. Otherwise, Cpt. Falcon would not be in Smash. It really just seems like people are looking for arbitrary reasons to shoot down a character they personally don't care about. I'd prefer it if you just said straight out, "I don't like Corrin" or "I don't like Fire Emblem". There's no argument there, that's entirely your opinion on the matter. But don't try and church it up to make it seem like your distaste for this character is justified.

I'm not particularly fond of Bayonetta, but I'm not sitting here complaining about some BS reason like Sakurai's lust for adding over sexualized characters in his games.
 

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