Making a hypothetical balance patch and screwing with some kits

[youre_a_squib_now]

I also have some less drastic changes for Nova and Aerospray than the current ones.

Nova is simple. Instead of damage falloff being reversed, accuracy falloff is. The weapon currently has no accuracy falloff, but that really doesn't mean much as of now. Let's say after half a second of firing, its accuracy starts to improve, and after 2 seconds it reaches a minimum spread of ~3 degrees. Also give it 26 damage per shot.

Huge fan of the nova change. I really, really like the concept, even if the numbers don't work. The thing is, the size of the reticle is a fixed value. We can edit the value, but there is no parameter for changing it as you continue shooting. What you're thinking of is the chance to shoot towards the outer reticle. We can still mess with this though. Having only a 10 or 20% chance to shoot towards such a large outer reticle would feel terrible, so it would have to go all the way to 0%. Close to perfect accuracy on a weapon with as much range as nova should take a while to get; 2.5 seconds sounds fair, since even though it'll be gradually increasing up to that point, you'll have to be walking and shooting that whole time.

These numbers are just my initial thoughts, but I think they would work really well:

• Initial chance: 10% -> 25%
• Maximum chance: 25% -> 0%
• Chance increase per shot: 3% -> -1%
• Chance after a jump: 40% -> 25%
  • If it was higher than 25%, the value below this being negative might mean that it would be stuck at that chance until the main weapon was fired enough. I'd have to test it though.
• Chance decrease per frame while not shooting: 2% -> -0.625%

As a result of these changes:

• It will take 2.5 seconds (150 frames) to reach 0%
• It will take 0.67 seconds (40 frames) to go back to 25% after the initial 6 frames of not shooting

Also, because of the accuracy, it shouldn't 4 shot. Maybe it would be fine with the numbers you suggested, but definitely not with these. Plus, being a 5 shot shooter is an important part of its identity.

I feel like the opposite approach could work for Aerospray, giving it very good initial accuracy for the first half second of fire, but amplified accuracy falloff, causing its outer reticle to expand to its current degree of spread after a second of continuous fire.

I'm not as big of a fan of the aerospray change, though. The aerospray jump accuracy and your nova change work because having really good accuracy comes with the downside of having predictable movement. For nova, you can't swim or jump without resetting your outer reticle chance, and for aerospray currently, you're stuck in a jump. With your change, you just... pop out and have really good accuracy with no downside at all.

And besides, your change already kind of exists during the jump. When you jump with any shooter (and a lot of other weapons) your accuracy (not outer reticle chance) is set to whatever your jump accuracy is for 25 frames. Then from 25 to 70 frames it gradually goes back to your normal accuracy. This is why it's better to wait after jumping with range blaster. With aerospray, because the jump accuracy is better than the regular accuracy, perfect accuracy is what you get for the first 25 frames, then it gradually worsens back to normal over the next.

The main issue with buffing these guns' accuracy is that their high spread is a part of their identity; they're designed to be painting guns, not fighters. This is compounded with the issue that shooters are supposed to be fairly simple weapons. My changes are by no means perfect, and I feel like the jump accuracy on Aerospray could work, but these changes seem a bit simpler and a bit better.

This is true about the nova change, but not so much the aerospray change. My change is simpler: all I have to say is "perfect jump accuracy" and you understand exactly what I'm talking about. It literally changes 1 number. Also, it keeps aerospray's identity as having low accuracy more than your change, because yours just... gives it good accuracy. Sure, it goes away quickly, but with a weapon that short-ranged you wouldn't be shooting enemies for more than a second anyway before going back into your ink.

 

[OnePotWonder]

Huge fan of the nova change. I really, really like the concept, even if the numbers don't work. The thing is, the size of the reticle is a fixed value. We can edit the value, but there is no parameter for changing it as you continue shooting. What you're thinking of is the chance to shoot towards the outer reticle. We can still mess with this though. Having only a 10 or 20% chance to shoot towards such a large outer reticle would feel terrible, so it would have to go all the way to 0%. Close to perfect accuracy on a weapon with as much range as nova should take a while to get; 2.5 seconds sounds fair, since even though it'll be gradually increasing up to that point, you'll have to be walking and shooting that whole time.

These numbers are just my initial thoughts, but I think they would work really well:

• Initial chance: 10% -> 25%
• Maximum chance: 25% -> 0%
• Chance increase per shot: 3% -> -1%
• Chance after a jump: 40% -> 25%
  • If it was higher than 25%, the value below this being negative might mean that it would be stuck at that chance until the main weapon was fired enough. I'd have to test it though.
• Chance decrease per frame while not shooting: 2% -> -0.625%

As a result of these changes:

• It will take 2.5 seconds (150 frames) to reach 0%
• It will take 0.67 seconds (40 frames) to go back to 25% after the initial 6 frames of not shooting

Also, because of the accuracy, it shouldn't 4 shot. Maybe it would be fine with the numbers you suggested, but definitely not with these. Plus, being a 5 shot shooter is an important part of its identity.

If changing the reticle size isn't an option, keeping it as a five-shot makes more sense. This seems like a much more refined version of my initial idea; thank you for being a statistics nerd so I don't have to.

I'm not as big of a fan of the aerospray change, though. The aerospray jump accuracy and your nova change work because having really good accuracy comes with the downside of having predictable movement. For nova, you can't swim or jump without resetting your outer reticle chance, and for aerospray currently, you're stuck in a jump. With your change, you just... pop out and have really good accuracy with no downside at all.

And besides, your change already kind of exists during the jump. When you jump with any shooter (and a lot of other weapons) your accuracy (not outer reticle chance) is set to whatever your jump accuracy is for 25 frames. Then from 25 to 70 frames it gradually goes back to your normal accuracy. This is why it's better to wait after jumping with range blaster. With aerospray, because the jump accuracy is better than the regular accuracy, perfect accuracy is what you get for the first 25 frames, then it gradually worsens back to normal over the next.

This is true about the nova change, but not so much the aerospray change. My change is simpler: all I have to say is "perfect jump accuracy" and you understand exactly what I'm talking about. It literally changes 1 number. Also, it keeps aerospray's identity as having low accuracy more than your change, because yours just... gives it good accuracy. Sure, it goes away quickly, but with a weapon that short-ranged you wouldn't be shooting enemies for more than a second anyway before going back into your ink.

My Aerospray change was more iffy anyway. It's not really that I think the jump accuracy is a bad idea, it just seems really annoying.
I believe that the riibalanced Aerospray currently starts with perfect accuracy in mid-air. I feel like that's a bit much, kind of and eats into Splash-o-Matic's identity, as the weapons have similar range. I feel like maybe 2.5 to 3 degrees of spread would be better.

Other than that, I think that we've come to a decent consensus.

 

[youre_a_squib_now]

If changing the reticle size isn't an option, keeping it as a five-shot makes more sense. This seems like a much more refined version of my initial idea; thank you for being a statistics nerd so I don't have to.

It's not actually that much more refined than yours; i didn't spend too long thinking about it. It just looks fancier because I did math on it to figure out what internal parameters would lead to the change I wanted.

I feel like that's a bit much, kind of and eats into Splash-o-Matic's identity, as the weapons have similar range. I feel like maybe 2.5 to 3 degrees of spread would be better.

huh. I guess they do. I still think perfect jump accuracy would be a really cool identity for it, and this identity is less cool, but I can't think of a different way to change it to make it more distinct.

 

[youre_a_squib_now]

on a more practical note, this is the perfect chance to test s-blast. I've been playing it again for the past week or two so I'll be able to get a pretty good feel for how much the radius buff actually helps it. I'll post my thoughts once I feel like I've played it enough to come to a good conclusion.

I love the radius buff. I wasn't expecting it to do a whole lot, but the long range aoe actually feels amazing now. It's still hard to hit, but it definitely feels useful, and that's exactly where it should be. It feels like I could go on and on about how good this change is, but that's really all there is to say. It feels like the blast radius exists now while still not being easy to hit. My previous change gets rid of this, removing a very important and very cool part of the weapon's identity, and I don't like that. It could even be considered more of a rework than a buff, because of how fundamentally it changes the weapon. And a rework isn't at all what it needs. Buffing the radius to 2.0 fixes the problem that made me want that change in the first place.

I have very few issues with the weapon now, but here are the few I do have, and how I would fix them.

• The short range mode has a sometimes inconsistent direct, especially without a sub of IA. It feels terrible to aim well and only get an indirect or even a spark, and it still happens frustratingly often even with one sub. It's literally Blaster_Precision; it should reward precise aim. It still hits mostof the time, but it misses often enough to make the weapon noticeably weaker at short range.
  • The solution to this is pretty simple. Just buff the jump rng so that it's as almost as good as it currently is with one sub of IA. It shouldn't be buffed by too much, so that IA still has at least some usefulness, but it would make one sub not feel so required, and it would make it feel even more better if you do have one sub. It's currently 8 degrees base and 6.36 with one sub, so 7 degrees should be a good number. This would also make it so that when you do have one sub, it's about the same as if you had two subs before the change.
• The two shot works most of the time, but if there's a small gap between your two shots and you hit the very outside edge of the radius, sometimes the opponent can live even though you hit them twice, which is both frustrating and unnecessary.
  • A simple damage buff should do it. The minimum damage for both modes should be 55.
• The burst combos are nice when they work, but that's not often. They barely feel useful (similarly to how I felt about the pre-buff long range aoe). Don't get me wrong, burst is still amazing for it; s-blast loves it as a movement tool and it's good at comboing with teammates. But specifically the indirect + burst bomb combo feels unnecessarily inconsistent. I don't like how consistent the riibalanced 2.1 combos would be though. Having the inside combo be almost the entire old blast radius seems like a lot, and the 25 damage combo should be reserved for very close indirects given how big the 25 damage radius is on burst bombs. I like the change but I think it's too much. Also, riibalanced doesn't do anything for the short range combo.
  • For the long range combo, I think 25 damage should combo at 1.0 units, and 35 damage should combo at 1.5 units. This is in between the current state and riibalanced, and it feels much more fair to me.
    • Making it do 80 damage at 0.75 units, decreasing down to 55 damage at 2 units, will have this effect. (This curve happens to be exactly halfway in between vanilla and riibalanced for radii of at least 1, which was completely unintentional but is cool.)
  • For the short range mode, the outside burst combo definitely should not exist, but the inside one should at least be a little more consistent than it is now. Changing it from 1.75 units to 2.5 didn't seem terrible at first, but after some preliminary testing it would definitely be too much. Given how fast the combo is, it can't be too reliable without being broken. Also, given how much of a difference the long range radius change made despite only increasing it by .2 units, maybe only 2 units of combo-able radius is enough. It's a pretty small buff from 1.75, but the short range burst combo shouldn't be too strong anyway.
    • Buffing the min damage to 55 already increases the combo radius to 2.0. Nothing extra has to be changed here.
• The spark does absolutely nothing right now. It's ridiculously small and does basically no damage considering this weapon is a two-shot. Despite this being my most played weapon, I have only seen the spark be at all useful one single time, and it was after a failed burst combo. I said stuff felt useless before, but it's nothing compared to this. It's so irrelevant that I can't find literally any information about it anywhere. (including the game files, which might make it hard to edit lol)
  • Whether sparks should be useful I'm not sure of, but if I were to buff them, I would probably increase the damage to 45 regardless of distance from the center, and make the radius 20-30% bigger. It wouldn't be a huge change balance wise, since it's pretty much always optimal to just go for an indirect anyway, but it would make sparking feel less terrible if nothing else.
• I was going to talk about ink consumption and burst bombs here, but it's a completely deserved weakness of the weapon, especially after the other buffs. However, what made me want to change this is how completely terrible it feels to be out of ink. It's kind of absurd, actually, having to wait an entire 60 frames to start recovering ink, then 51 more frames to actually recover that ink (in kid form), then 37 more frames to shoot a shot and swim in it. That's almost two and a half seconds just to get into squid form. The thing that actually makes this a problem, though, is that s-blast loves jumping and shooting, with either firing mode. Jumping sideways while shooting is a completely normal and expected thing for it to do. The thing is, because of how early in the jump the shot comes out (compared to something like range, which likes to delay the shot so it can get better rng) you often end up not landing in the ink from that shot, as seen in the image at the bottom. This often leads to you being stuck in an unfavorable position in enemy ink, just for doing something that the weapon is completely expected to do, because you aren't in the ink from your own shot. The problem also exists with the short range mode, although not quite as much. The short range mode should be more mobile anyway though.
  • The solution for this is simple, like for the other ones. Just increase the radius of the paint droplet at the player's feet by 30-40% for both modes. Even if this wouldn't make you be land completely in the ink, it would mean that at least one foot would land in the ink, which would make it a lot easier to swim back into.

Here are all of the changes in one place:

• Changes to long range mode
  • Minimum explosion damage: 50 -> 55
  • Maximum explosion damage: 70 -> 80
  • Maximum damage radius: 1.0 -> 0.75
  • As a result of these changes:
    • 75 damage radius: does not exist -> 1.0
    • 65 damage radius: 1.25 units -> 1.5
• Changes to short range mode
  • Minimum explosion damage: 50 -> 55
  • As a result of this change:
    • 65 damage radius: 1.75 -> 2.0
  • Base shot deviation: 8 degrees -> 7 degrees
• Changes to both modes
  • Sparks do 45 damage every time
  • Paint radius at your feet increased by 30-40%

So... that's a lot of buffs. But they're mostly small ones looking back. They make the weapon feel better to play, but the only buff that would have a major impact balance wise is the the explosion damage buff, because of the burst combos (and that's actually a nerf compared to riibalanced). The rng buff, feet paint buff, and spark buff are all pretty minor buffs that will only matter occasionally, but will make the weapon feel a lot better to play the times that they do matter. So balance wise I think it's a fair improvement over vanilla and about even with riibalanced, but even disregarding balance it should feel much more fair to play compared to vanilla (because of the small buffs, and burst combos actually working) and compared to riibalanced it should also feel more fair to play against (long range burst combos shouldn't be that consistent). The other important thing about these buffs is that none of them buff the major weaknesses of the weapon. It still has pretty heavy ink consumption (especially if the sub weapon is used) so even if the user has absolutely cracked aim, they still would have to take breaks. And it's also still very slow and has a lot of endlag, so mistakes (including poor aim) are easily punishable. The combo buff does make it slightly less reliant on good aim by giving you tools to kill with other than directs, but it also gives you those tools if you do have good aim, so it's not an issue. These changes keep the weapon's identity while making it feel much better to play. I am slightly worried that these buffs are too small and won't be enough to give the weapon a reason to have time put into it, but I'm not sure. Maybe it could use a 2.5 unit short range burst combo after all?

Also @isaac4 since I know you play s-blast, what are your thoughts on the current state of the weapon and my proposed changes to it? I'd love to hear your opinion on this.

Playing s-blast again has also given me some thoughts on other things I think should be changed, but that's not particularly relevant to s-blast specifically and this post is long enough as it is. So those will come later.

black = splatoon 3 7.1, blue = splatoon 3 7.2, red = riibalanced 2.1, orange = this post, green = 2.5 unit burst combo (70 damage radius increased to 1.75)


ink from a jumped long range shot:

 

[OnePotWonder]

We still need to touch on Recycle Brella. I'd recommend increasing its damage so it isn't identical to Splat Brella's, increasing its shield HP to 150, as well as increasing its shield contact damage to 60 because it'd give it more of a reason to launch its shield at someone.

Also, you should see if you can make the brellas' canopies open faster to compensate for the tick rate lag.

 

[Terret]

We still need to touch on Recycle Brella. I'd recommend increasing its damage so it isn't identical to Splat Brella's, increasing its shield HP to 150, as well as increasing its shield contact damage to 60 because it'd give it more of a reason to launch its shield at someone.

Also, you should see if you can make the brellas' canopies open faster to compensate for the tick rate lag.

Oh don’t worry, I’m doing a LOT for Recycled Brella. Funnily enough, basically everything BUT the Hp of the shield. I forgot the stats so I need a sec to grab them

 

[isaac4]

• Changes to long range mode
  • Minimum explosion damage: 50 -> 55
  • Maximum explosion damage: 70 -> 80
  • Maximum damage radius: 1.0 -> 0.75
  • As a result of these changes:
    • 75 damage radius: does not exist -> 1.0
    • 65 damage radius: 1.25 units -> 1.5
• Changes to short range mode
  • Minimum explosion damage: 50 -> 55
  • As a result of this change:
    • 65 damage radius: 1.75 -> 2.0
  • Base shot deviation: 8 degrees -> 7 degrees
• Changes to both modes
  • Sparks do 45 damage every time
  • Paint radius at your feet increased by 30-40%

I really like all these changes honestly. None of the buffs listed seem unreasonable and would just make the weapon more fun to play.

Making 2 shots and burst combos more consistent, long range mode being more threatening because of the increased damage, and better paint for movement would be great for the weapon.
Decreasing the shot rng to open up the possibility of running an S-Blast build that doesn't require any IA would also be AMAZING. An optimal S-Blast build doesn't give you a lot of gear freedom which is expected with it being a blaster but I would still like the option to not run any IA at all, especially since the long range mode is now more consistent.

The most important changes would definitely be the increased explosion damage from long range mode and the increased paint radius to let it move around easier. They might not seem like a lot but S-Blast really doesn't need anything big.

For how I feel about the weapon right now though, I think that the blast radius buff is exactly what I wanted and I do feel the difference when I take it in matches. I'm not sure where I would place it right now with the other weapons in this game but it's definitely pushing high tier if it isn't already. I just hope they keep giving it small buffs here and there before the update cycle is over, I do think the weapon has a lot of potential and I would like to see it reach that potential in Splatoon 3.

 

[youre_a_squib_now]

My Aerospray change was more iffy anyway. It's not really that I think the jump accuracy is a bad idea, it just seems really annoying.
I believe that the riibalanced Aerospray currently starts with perfect accuracy in mid-air. I feel like that's a bit much, kind of and eats into Splash-o-Matic's identity, as the weapons have similar range. I feel like maybe 2.5 to 3 degrees of spread would be better.

So apparently the 25 and 70 frame numbers I mentioned before are editable. So we could give it perfect accuracy frame 1 after the jump but it immediately starts going away frame 2, or we could do something silly like giving it exactly 5 shots of perfect accuracy after a jump and then it goes back to normal. I kinda like the second one tbh

 

[youre_a_squib_now]

Playing s-blast again has also given me some thoughts on other things I think should be changed, but that's not particularly relevant to s-blast specifically and this post is long enough as it is. So those will come later.

I had previously used my experience on e-liter to argue that splat bomb and killer wail don't need changing, because they don't affect me that much outside of forcing me to move. But despite having the most range in the game, it doesn't actually have that much endlag. You can go into squid form pretty much whenever you want.

Now that I'm back to playing s-blast, though, these are killing me on their own much more often. A rolled splat bomb takes 60 frames to explode, since it's on the ground pretty much the whole time. During a shot (from swim form, which is most of the time), s-blast is stuck for 47 frames before it can get to swim form. Add 8 or so frames to get enough speed to squid roll and you have less than a tenth of a second to see and react to a rolled splat bomb, or else you could be stuck in endlag and unavoidably splatted.

The thing that makes this hard to nerf is that the problem isn't affected by the radius, and if the explosion time is increased, it would make it less impactful as a displacement tool from further away (since that already gives much more warning as it flies through the air). The only solution I've been able to think of is the one @OnePotWonder suggested, which is to make the splat bomb take longer to explode specifically when it's rolled. And I agree that 20 frames seems like a good number. Unfortunately we haven't figured out how we could implement this, and I can't think of anything else that would fix the issue. A 10 frame nerf to the regular time might work but I still don't like it as much.

Although killer wail is harder to analyze with framedata, it has a similar issue. If it's locked on to me and I'm in a field of my own ink, I can avoid it as easily as any other weapon can, but if I have to paint a path for myself, I am forced to stand still for long enough at a time that the wails becomes very hard to avoid while also doing literally anything else. However, wail also does pretty much nothing against faster weapons (primarily shooters) since they have almost no endlag and already move in ways that would avoid the wails. The only solution to this that I can think of is making the wails track slower from further away or do less damage from further away, but these are also not really possible to implement.

 

[youre_a_squib_now]

Playing s-blast again has also given me some thoughts on other things I think should be changed, but that's not particularly relevant to s-blast specifically and this post is long enough as it is. So those will come later.

I also don't think booyah bomb needs changed from regular splatoon, at all. I can be splatted pretty easily when using it as a panic button, but if I use it proactively, when I know someone will be able to shoot me soon, then it feels like a fair protection option. I would agree with a slight hp nerf, but a lot of weapons are getting slight damage buffs, which is basically the same thing, so it fixes the only thing that really needs fixed.

 

[Terret]

I had previously used my experience on e-liter to argue that splat bomb and killer wail don't need changing, because they don't affect me that much outside of forcing me to move. But despite having the most range in the game, it doesn't actually have that much endlag. You can go into squid form pretty much whenever you want.

Now that I'm back to playing s-blast, though, these are killing me on their own much more often. A rolled splat bomb takes 60 frames to explode, since it's on the ground pretty much the whole time. During a shot (from swim form, which is most of the time), s-blast is stuck for 47 frames before it can get to swim form. Add 8 or so frames to get enough speed to squid roll and you have less than a tenth of a second to see and react to a rolled splat bomb, or else you could be stuck in endlag and unavoidably splatted.

The thing that makes this hard to nerf is that the problem isn't affected by the radius, and if the explosion time is increased, it would make it less impactful as a displacement tool from further away (since that already gives much more warning as it flies through the air). The only solution I've been able to think of is the one @OnePotWonder suggested, which is to make the splat bomb take longer to explode specifically when it's rolled. And I agree that 20 frames seems like a good number. Unfortunately we haven't figured out how we could implement this, and I can't think of anything else that would fix the issue. A 10 frame nerf to the regular time might work but I still don't like it as much.

Although killer wail is harder to analyze with framedata, it has a similar issue. If it's locked on to me and I'm in a field of my own ink, I can avoid it as easily as any other weapon can, but if I have to paint a path for myself, I am forced to stand still for long enough at a time that the wails becomes very hard to avoid while also doing literally anything else. However, wail also does pretty much nothing against faster weapons (primarily shooters) since they have almost no endlag and already move in ways that would avoid the wails. The only solution to this that I can think of is making the wails track slower from further away or do less damage from further away, but these are also not really possible to implement.

Bombs in general I do think could potentially use a nerf. Like there’s a way to make linear scaling on the AOE damage of bombs but I’m personally not too on board with that kind of idea for consistency reasons. As for the set off time (if it applies in all scenarios) I’m scared to touch for two reasons. One is the alignment with Suction Bomb, and the other is the fact longer set off could even be considered a BUFF due to the ability to hold area for longer. Wail I don’t really think needs nerfs but I’m more than happy to, what do you have in mind?

 

[OnePotWonder]

Guys, I had an idea for Killer Wail 5.1 a while back. Not sure how good or possible it is, but I feel like it might fix some of its problems and make it more interactive. It would probably qualify as a nerf, so it might need a bit more duration or damage to compensate.

Instead of the wails tracking players directly, each pair aims to the left and right of the target. What with the tracking delay, this makes wails a lot more threatening when a target is forced to move, but less threatening if they're just being fired off into the distance.

 

[Terret]

Guys, I had an idea for Killer Wail 5.1 a while back. Not sure how good or possible it is, but I feel like it might fix some of its problems and make it more interactive. It would probably qualify as a nerf, so it might need a bit more duration or damage to compensate.

Instead of the wails tracking players directly, each pair aims to the left and right of the target. What with the tracking delay, this makes wails a lot more threatening when a target is forced to move, but less threatening if they're just being fired off into the distance.

That’s a really cool idea I don’t know how to implement. I REALLY like this idea though

 

[youre_a_squib_now]

Bombs in general I do think could potentially use a nerf. Like there’s a way to make linear scaling on the AOE damage of bombs but I’m personally not too on board with that kind of idea for consistency reasons. As for the set off time (if it applies in all scenarios) I’m scared to touch for two reasons. One is the alignment with Suction Bomb, and the other is the fact longer set off could even be considered a BUFF due to the ability to hold area for longer.

It wouldn't actually hold an area for longer; it just holds it later. There's a difference. Yes, it would be a sixth of a second longer before you can go in that area, but it also gives an extra sixth of a second before you have to leave that area. So it's definitely a nerf. Plus, even if there are a couple situations where you would want the delayed explosion, you can already do that by lobbing the bomb to delay the timer, so the change wouldn't give you the ability to do anything you couldn't do before. And some weapons desperately need that extra time to move out of the way.

 

[Terret]

It wouldn't actually hold an area for longer; it just holds it later. There's a difference. Yes, it would be a sixth of a second longer before you can go in that area, but it also gives an extra sixth of a second before you have to leave that area. So it's definitely a nerf. Plus, even if there are a couple situations where you would want the delayed explosion, you can already do that by lobbing the bomb to delay the timer, so the change wouldn't give you the ability to do anything you couldn't do before. And some weapons desperately need that extra time to move out of the way.

I do think giving 10 frames on the explosion timer is a bit too much as it will align with suction to much. I think 5 frames should be enough in that regard.

 

[youre_a_squib_now]

I do think giving 10 frames on the explosion timer is a bit too much as it will align with suction to much. I think 5 frames should be enough in that regard.

5 frames is better than nothing, but it's currently 1 second vs 2 seconds. 1.17 vs 2 is still a big difference.

 

[Terret]

5 frames is better than nothing, but it's currently 1 second vs 2 seconds. 1.17 vs 2 is still a big difference.

I really don’t think it’s big enough of a difference. Though I could also nerf Suction’s explosion time by an amount. Maybe lightly buff nonlethal radius (probably by like .1 to .5 units) specifically to compensate

 

[youre_a_squib_now]

Suction's explosion time is already pretty slow. It doesn't need nerfed.
As for being distinct, can you think of any other situation where two things overlapped with each other despite one of their most major stats being more than 70% different? I'm guessing not. Because 70% is a huge difference.

Here are some examples.

• Range blaster's explosion radius is 75% bigger than s-blast's long range mode's.
• E-liter takes 53% longer to charge than splat charger.
• Gloogas have 60% more range than dapples.
• Tenta brella has 73% more time between shots than splat brella.
• Octobrush has 67% more time between flicks than inkbrush.
• Wiper's movement speed during horizontal slashes is 58% faster than stamper's.

You can't argue that the weapons are different despite these; these are some of the fundamental differences that make the weapons distinct from each other. There are plenty of differences that are smaller than this that still make big differences, like slosher's shots taking 26% longer than tri-slosher's, or tent's shield having 40% more health than splat brella's. Yet no one is saying that any of these weapons are too similar to each other, because 50% is a huge difference for most things in the game. So I don't see why splat bomb and suction would overlap.

 

[youre_a_squib_now]

I will spare you my thoughts on chargers for now

I suppose I should start typing these out sometime soon

 

[Terret]

Suction's explosion time is already pretty slow. It doesn't need nerfed.
As for being distinct, can you think of any other situation where two things overlapped with each other despite one of their most major stats being more than 70% different? I'm guessing not. Because 70% is a huge difference.

Here are some examples.

• Range blaster's explosion radius is 75% bigger than s-blast's long range mode's.
• E-liter takes 53% longer to charge than splat charger.
• Gloogas have 60% more range than dapples.
• Tenta brella has 73% more time between shots than splat brella.
• Octobrush has 67% more time between flicks than inkbrush.
• Wiper's movement speed during horizontal slashes is 58% faster than stamper's.

You can't argue that the weapons are different despite these; these are some of the fundamental differences that make the weapons distinct from each other. There are plenty of differences that are smaller than this that still make big differences, like slosher's shots taking 26% longer than tri-slosher's, or tent's shield having 40% more health than splat brella's. Yet no one is saying that any of these weapons are too similar to each other, because 50% is a huge difference for most things in the game. So I don't see why splat bomb and suction would overlap.

Fair. I always thought in my head Splat Bomb wasn’t that big a problem but that was in part because not many strong weapons have it. But it seems to be necessary judging by general consensus. If the audio reasonably aligns, I’ll slap 5 frames onto detonation time for Splat Bomb