Making a hypothetical balance patch and screwing with some kits

[OnePotWonder]

Hard objection to the lethal bombs not being lethal. Rolling it is actually imo a really cool part of the sub, and I should mention there are two massive issues from removing lethal radius. First off, nothing can reasonably poke anymore to be worth 70% of the ink tank which removes a LOT of the threat of weapons that NEED it to retake. Secondly, with the much smaller damage values, wall becomes busted af until I find the damage multipliers. And I’ll argue wall will be more problematic than splat bomb

I thought I was forgetting something. More than happy to nerf Wall alongside these changes, I do agree it's as bad as lethal bombs, but I think Splat Bomb is still worse.

It feels like this is the basis of your entire argument, but... no, not really. It's designed to move people. Maybe against dynamo or something it could be unfair, but other than that, even slower weapons can squid roll the bomb.


It's a full second, not half of one, and making them leave the radius quickly is the whole point. There's also another point I'll get to later.

I personally have jumped into a splat bomb too many times with a squiffer, but a longer explosion time wouldn't fix that.


The thing about slower weapons is that you usually can't roll the splat bomb straight at them. With the exception of dynamo, they all like playing from further back and usually from high ground, so they have the whole time while the splat bomb is traveling through the air plus another second to move out of the way. As an e-liter, splat bombs by themselves rarely do anything more than take my laser off the map for a second or two, which is completely fair for 70% of the ink tank. If I could just tank a splat bomb to the face, I would get to not care, and that takes away a whole lot of the utility of splat bomb.


I highly doubt they would still be as good as you think, because they already require follow-up. Faster weapons that play from closer ranges can move out of the way or squid roll the bomb pretty easily, but it stops their ability to move forward and leaves them more vulnerable to the opponent who threw the bomb, and slower weapons that play from further back get more time to react, while still being forced to have less of an impact on the game temporarily. That's what makes it so well designed. As I've mentioned before, really the only major exception to this is dynamo, which is the slowest weapon in the game but still plays from relatively far forward.

Plus, this change would actually make slower weapons even more worse than faster weapons against splat bomb, because the faster weapons could just tank the 70 damage, paint their feet, and run, but the slower weapons would be stuck in ink with not very much health left, making them very easy to finish off.


Fizzy bomb should keep its damage numbers for the same reason as splat bomb, especially since getting all 3 explosions requires you to stand there charging it, giving even more time to react.
Burst bomb is already very ink hungry for what it does, especially since it already got a 5% consumption nerf.
Torpedo can be annoying for slower weapons, but it already takes a while to land, and the rolled mode is basically splat bomb with the nerf you wanted.
These subs are all stronger than utility subs, but I don't see any reason to nerf them instead of buffing the utility subs more.


As much as I'm in favor of this, it's not really something we can do.

My overarching argument is that is doesn't make any sense for only four sub weapons to be able to splat an enemy outright, and even less sense for two of them to be good at it.
Yes, you can parry an explosion with Squid Roll, but at that point you would also have been able to move out of the way.

A rolled Splat Bomb explodes roughly half a second after it stops moving, which is what I'm basing that time off of.

Tanking a non-lethal Splat Bomb as an E-liter would still be detrimental. You'd be left on 30 HP, your feet would be painted, basically any attack would be enough to splat you. It still seems fairer than the bomb splatting or moving you outright with zero effort, if a bit lopsided in favour of the bomb receiver.
You bring up a fair point here, but I have a counter proposal for later. Bombs forcing backlines to move isn't exactly justification for them being able to get splats on their own, but there's a way to have the cake and eat it too, I think.

Your next point entirely assumes that players are able to react to the bomb in time, playing in the correct position. Assuming players are positioned well, Splat Bomb is a fair sub. When a player is disorganized, lethal bombs are overpowered. It's fine to give these subs a negative effect that forces enemies to move, I'll go so far as to say it's healthy, but lethal damage is not it.

Here's what I think; bombs doing lethal damage is not okay, but at the same time they should be able to move people, and they should be impartial to weapons that get caught in their close radii. So, make bombs do 70 damage maximum, and make them stun enemies for one or two seconds if they get hit. It's as good as lethal damage in most cases, but not if it's just a stray bomb that just happens to catch a player off-guard.
That way, nothing else needs to be nerfed.

I'm happy to discuss this, but I should warn you beforehand that there's basically nothing you can say to change my mind on this matter. I've died to Splat Bombs too many times for me to have any sympathy for the sub.

 

[Terret]

I thought I was forgetting something. More than happy to nerf Wall alongside these changes, I do agree it's as bad as lethal bombs, but I think Splat Bomb is still worse.


My overarching argument is that is doesn't make any sense for only four sub weapons to be able to splat an enemy outright, and even less sense for two of them to be good at it.
Yes, you can parry an explosion with Squid Roll, but at that point you would also have been able to move out of the way.

A rolled Splat Bomb explodes roughly half a second after it stops moving, which is what I'm basing that time off of.

Tanking a non-lethal Splat Bomb as an E-liter would still be detrimental. You'd be left on 30 HP, your feet would be painted, basically any attack would be enough to splat you. It still seems fairer than the bomb splatting or moving you outright with zero effort, if a bit lopsided in favour of the bomb receiver.
You bring up a fair point here, but I have a counter proposal for later. Bombs forcing backlines to move isn't exactly justification for them being able to get splats on their own, but there's a way to have the cake and eat it too, I think.

Your next point entirely assumes that players are able to react to the bomb in time, playing in the correct position. Assuming players are positioned well, Splat Bomb is a fair sub. When a player is disorganized, lethal bombs are overpowered. It's fine to give these subs a negative effect that forces enemies to move, I'll go so far as to say it's healthy, but lethal damage is not it.

Here's what I think; bombs doing lethal damage is not okay, but at the same time they should be able to move people, and they should be impartial to weapons that get caught in their close radii. So, make bombs do 70 damage maximum, and make them stun enemies for one or two seconds if they get hit. It's as good as lethal damage in most cases, but not if it's just a stray bomb that just happens to catch a player off-guard.
That way, nothing else needs to be nerfed.

I'm happy to discuss this, but I should warn you beforehand that there's basically nothing you can say to change my mind on this matter. I've died to Splat Bombs too many times for me to have any sympathy for the sub.

At the same time, you do have to consider other one shots that are MUCH cheaper (chargers, blasters, rollers, etc.), thereby making bombs, USELESS, which again, is a problem because all of a sudden, weapons that do rely on bombs for poking suffer immensely. Curling is already struggling to find synergy at 45% of the tank so it killing is more than fair. Auto gets random kills at 55% of the tank and is still considered mid due to lack of versatility and the fact you aren’t combining ANYTHING, so the oneshot radius is also justified on auto. As for Splat Bomb and Suction Bomb, again, 70% of the ink tank is a LOT. It’s still good because it enables options. You’re effectively taking that option away if someone can squidroll with no damage taken 100% of the time. If it’s possible to practically ignore a sub, it’s a HUGE problem. That’s why mist is as bad as it is, and why dart will never be good the way Nintendo is balancing it, even during the DART CHALLENGE. Also, I am considering an organized setting so unorganized play (with the exception of maybe some fun kits) is NOT considered here

 

[OnePotWonder]

At the same time, you do have to consider other one shots that are MUCH cheaper (chargers, blasters, rollers, etc.), thereby making bombs, USELESS, which again, is a problem because all of a sudden, weapons that do rely on bombs for poking suffer immensely. Curling is already struggling to find synergy at 45% of the tank so it killing is more than fair. Auto gets random kills at 55% of the tank and is still considered mid due to lack of versatility and the fact you aren’t combining ANYTHING, so the oneshot radius is also justified on auto. As for Splat Bomb and Suction Bomb, again, 70% of the ink tank is a LOT. It’s still good because it enables options. You’re effectively taking that option away if someone can squidroll with no damage taken 100% of the time. If it’s possible to practically ignore a sub, it’s a HUGE problem. That’s why mist is as bad as it is, and why dart will never be good the way Nintendo is balancing it, even during the DART CHALLENGE. Also, I am considering an organized setting so unorganized play (with the exception of maybe some fun kits) is NOT considered here

I would still consider Bombs the cheapest one-shots. Blasters and chargers require skill shots, and *most* rollers have poor range.
Actually, there is one cheaper one-shot in the game: Tenta Missiles. But I assume you've already taken care of that.
Edit: Oh wait, you meant ink-cheap.
Yes, main weapon one-shots require a lot less ink, but none of them are area-of-effect. Really, I just don't think sub weapons should be tools for splatting opponents. Only four are able to in the first place, and two of them aren't even good at it.

It's fair that you're only considering organized play with your changes. I'm just kind of ranting here anyways, I don't expect you to take any of this too seriously. I have literally nobody else to talk to about this game.

There is one thing that I'd ask you to consider though, because I feel like it'd make Splat Bombs a lot more tolerable and less kill-cheesy without nerfing them much. Could you see if you can add a minimum detonation time of 80 frames, such that specifically when the bomb is rolled, it takes longer to explode? I just want to see if it's possible.

 

[Terret]

I would still consider Bombs the cheapest one-shots. Blasters and chargers require skill shots, and *most* rollers have poor range.
Actually, there is one cheaper one-shot in the game: Tenta Missiles. But I assume you've already taken care of that.
It's fair that you're only considering organized play with your changes. I'm just kind of ranting here anyways, I don't expect you to take any of this too seriously. I have literally nobody else to talk to about this game.

There is one thing that I'd ask you to consider though, because I feel like it'd make Splat Bombs a lot more tolerable and less kill-cheesy without nerfing them much. Could you see if you can add a minimum detonation time of 80 frames, such that specifically when the bomb is rolled, it takes longer to explode? I just want to see if it's possible.

Making it specifically for rolled bombs I don’t think I can do. I could increase the time it takes to explode but I feel right now, it kind of depends on how testing with XLink turns out, and even then that might not be enough to be sure. So for now, aside from fizzy which is now at 65%, and Curling now at 45% (+ other changes to curling), bombs are probably staying the same

 

[OnePotWonder]

Making it specifically for rolled bombs I don’t think I can do. I could increase the time it takes to explode but I feel right now, it kind of depends on how testing with XLink turns out, and even then that might not be enough to be sure. So for now, aside from fizzy which is now at 65%, and Curling now at 45% (+ other changes to curling), bombs are probably staying the same

Very well, then. I do understand that modding the game isn't exactly simple.

 

[youre_a_squib_now]

Making it specifically for rolled bombs I don’t think I can do. I could increase the time it takes to explode but I feel right now, it kind of depends on how testing with XLink turns out, and even then that might not be enough to be sure. So for now, aside from fizzy which is now at 65%, and Curling now at 45% (+ other changes to curling), bombs are probably staying the same

Not that I think it's a good change, but it might be possible to achieve the same thing by adding a 20 frame timer starting on throw that prevents the actual timer from counting down until it reaches 0.
This would still be hard to add, but it's at least closer to being realistic.

 

[Terret]

Not that I think it's a good change, but it might be possible to achieve the same thing by adding a 20 frame timer starting on throw that prevents the actual timer from counting down until it reaches 0.
This would still be hard to add, but it's at least closer to being realistic.

Honestly no idea. Theoretically maybe but from what I know of, probably not

 

[youre_a_squib_now]

I've been thinking about how to fix sprinkler, and I think I found it. As usual, I'll start with the problem this tries to fix and go from there.

Having a sub weapon that only paints has only two potential uses. One is painting for area control. The problem with this is that any relevant sprinkler position will either be shot down immediately and get no value, or it will be a "sprinkler spot" that is very difficult or impossible to shoot down and paints an unfair amount in a relevant position on the map. The other use is passive special charge, which really does not need to have its own dedicated sub. If you want something to be good at getting special, just give it a paint or pfs buff.

Sprinkler would work best as (and seems to be designed to be) a tool to hold down an area for a long period of time. But it can't do this, because of what I said in the quote. So let's make it not be instantly shot down. It should be around as hard to shoot down as wave breaker, so 600 HP sounds reasonable. (Wave has 400; the extra is to compensate for the damage multipliers.) This would let it actually hold down an area with continued paint, because it takes more effort to shoot down. However, this causes a few other problems, so here's how I'd address those. First, the "sprinkler spots" I mentioned would be way more annoying than before, and they were already annoying. So its throwing range will be decreased by 15%. It was already pretty long, so this will also help against throwing the sprinkler way into an area you don't control as well. Also, this patch note from splatoon 2 (3.0.0) suggests that there are parameters for how much the sprinkler can paint from high up. So this buff should be at least partially reverted, so that the sprinkler spots that still exist aren't quite so annoying, especially because of the extra health.

The other problem is that sprinkler is now a shield with almost as much health as a literal splash wall. However, I don't think this is actually that much of a problem. It has a much smaller hitbox than wall, so you can still be shot over the top of it, and it's much harder to hide behind. Plus, it doesn't protect you from bombs, so they would force you to move out from behind it. But it could still potentially be too strong, so the ink consumption should be nerfed to 70% to prevent this from being abused. This would also nerf it being used for special spam, while being a fair compensation for the aggressive potential that it has now.

• 120hp -> 600hp
• 15% less throw range
• Less paint from high up
• 60% -> 70% ink consumption

These changes would give it a lot of actual combat utility. (Not something I thought I'd ever be saying about sprinkler.) It could actually help secure an area like Sheldon keeps saying. I certainly don't think it would be as good as bombs, and it definitely needs more buffs, but it's hard to know what buffs without testing this version of it.

 

[youre_a_squib_now]

so i was in the middle of writing a post about s-blast and nintendo jumpscared me with a radius buff. Nintendo agrees with you lol

Actually, I'm half convinced they read your patch notes for inspiration. Nova, s-blast, and screen got weaker versions of the buffs, and most of the other buffs kind of resemble yours. Dapples got a mobility buff, pro and h-3 got dps buffs, luna got a (paint) radius buff, and painbrush got a mobility buff (sort of).

I could be completely making this up though; after all, you've probably buffed around half the mains in the game. but it just feels like too much of a coincidence.

 

[youre_a_squib_now]

on a more practical note, this is the perfect chance to test s-blast. I've been playing it again for the past week or two so I'll be able to get a pretty good feel for how much the radius buff actually helps it. I'll post my thoughts once I feel like I've played it enough to come to a good conclusion.

 

[Terret]

so i was in the middle of writing a post about s-blast and nintendo jumpscared me with a radius buff. Nintendo agrees with you lol

Actually, I'm half convinced they read your patch notes for inspiration. Nova, s-blast, and screen got weaker versions of the buffs, and most of the other buffs kind of resemble yours. Dapples got a mobility buff, pro and h-3 got dps buffs, luna got a (paint) radius buff, and painbrush got a mobility buff (sort of).

I could be completely making this up though; after all, you've probably buffed around half the mains in the game. but it just feels like too much of a coincidence.

Nah, I doubt it lmao. Would be funny if they did. I feel like most of the changes just make sense. I’ll share my thoughts here actually. Like dapples being faster makes sense, though in that case, I might drop the third roll if the change is significant. Their change is more paint heavy than mine so it seems they want it to be a rat, which honestly I get that. Pro really didn’t need a damage buff imo but 90 in two shots is kinda scary so pro might be back. H-3 change while good, fails to address the issue in that the endlag mutilates it. The damage buff makes me think they want to keep it but make it more threatening overall, which justifies giving it wall since it would never want to be moving unless it knows it can go in. H-3 D might be interesting then. Luna got a good change, it’s not going to benefit as much as Range did, even with higher percent but I see it more as a mobility buff but it will help. Not enough but it’s getting somewhere. Pain primarily got paint and ink efficiency. It doesn’t address its main issue but extreme strengths is an interesting route for it. Better damage might bring it to a good spot then. Otherwise, none of the special changes aligned besides screen. I’d understand the thought of it not being coincidence if they did a Zooka change I did which is actually in a Chara video right now so that’s cool. That said, I’d probably be banned on the spot if Nintendo figured out my switch was modded lmao.

 

[youre_a_squib_now]

Chara released a very insightful vac video a couple days ago. His main point, as I understand it, is that vac is very weak if it's ignored since you're basically just down a player, but if you can force the other team to fill it, it gets much more value because 1. you protected stuff, 2. you get your main back sooner, and 3. you get a much more powerful explosion.

So our goal when buffing this should be to make it harder to ignore. The run speed should help with this but it probably will need more than that. idk what though, but knowing what the potential change is trying to accomplish should help us think of a good one.

 

[OnePotWonder]

I was going to comment about giving both Nozzlenoses more massive buffs, but it seems as though you've already done that.

I don't think there's anthing left we need to change in the way of main weapons. There are a few changes that I object to, particularly the paradigm shattering reworks of Aerospray and Nova, but there's nothing here I think is missing that needs changes. Maybe a Splattershot nerf at most.

I would be more thorough in my objections for the Aerospray and Nova changes, but I have to come up with better alternatives first.

 

[Terret]

I was going to comment about giving both Nozzlenoses more massive buffs, but it seems as though you've already done that.

I don't think there's anthing left we need to change in the way of main weapons. There are a few changes that I object to, particularly the paradigm shattering reworks of Aerospray and Nova, but there's nothing here I think is missing that needs changes. Maybe a Splattershot nerf at most.

I would be more thorough in my objections for the Aerospray and Nova changes, but I have to come up with better alternatives first.

Shot is honestly not that good of a main weapon. Good mobility and paint but I actually think right now, it’s inferior to Zap. So the main weapon is fine imo. Zap I might increase shot deviation of to give Shot an edge in something

 

[Terret]

Chara released a very insightful vac video a couple days ago. His main point, as I understand it, is that vac is very weak if it's ignored since you're basically just down a player, but if you can force the other team to fill it, it gets much more value because 1. you protected stuff, 2. you get your main back sooner, and 3. you get a much more powerful explosion.

So our goal when buffing this should be to make it harder to ignore. The run speed should help with this but it probably will need more than that. idk what though, but knowing what the potential change is trying to accomplish should help us think of a good one.

There’s no good way of making it harder to ignore besides that from what I know of. I thought increased suction would make it a larger threat while inhaling and decreasing the inhale time period gets you out of a potentially useless vac early, making it more reliable. The only way to solve it all is by being able to cancel the shot which right now is not possible

 

[OnePotWonder]

Shot is honestly not that good of a main weapon. Good mobility and paint but I actually think right now, it’s inferior to Zap. So the main weapon is fine imo. Zap I might increase shot deviation of to give Shot an edge in something

You know, fair enough. Zap did get a few unnecessary fighting buffs during the golden age of Pencil. I still think a paint nerf for Shot would be good to cement Zap's support identity better, but Zap getting its shot spread back would also help make the distinction.


I also have some less drastic changes for Nova and Aerospray than the current ones.

Nova is simple. Instead of damage falloff being reversed, accuracy falloff is. The weapon currently has no accuracy falloff, but that really doesn't mean much as of now. Let's say after half a second of firing, its accuracy starts to improve, and after 2 seconds it reaches a minimum spread of ~3 degrees. Also give it 26 damage per shot.

I feel like the opposite approach could work for Aerospray, giving it very good initial accuracy for the first half second of fire, but amplified accuracy falloff, causing its outer reticle to expand to its current degree of spread after a second of continuous fire.

The main issue with buffing these guns' accuracy is that their high spread is a part of their identity; they're designed to be painting guns, not fighters. This is compounded with the issue that shooters are supposed to be fairly simple weapons. My changes are by no means perfect, and I feel like the jump accuracy on Aerospray could work, but these changes seem a bit simpler and a bit better.

 

[a hot mess]

Hey guys, funny thing. In Chara’s latest video covering the best and worst weapons of S1, he goes over Rapid Pro’s damage and how it could be anywhere from a two- to four-shot splat, then states that the idea of variable shots to kill would be cool on the Clash Blaster.

We are thinking seven dimensions ahead of popular SplatTubers.

now we need to think ahead 293 more.

 

[youre_a_squib_now]

Shot is honestly not that good of a main weapon. Good mobility and paint but I actually think right now, it’s inferior to Zap. So the main weapon is fine imo. Zap I might increase shot deviation of to give Shot an edge in something

That's an... interesting take. I think we should wait until zooka is fixed, and then see how it feels from there.

There’s no good way of making it harder to ignore besides that from what I know of. I thought increased suction would make it a larger threat while inhaling and decreasing the inhale time period gets you out of a potentially useless vac early, making it more reliable. The only way to solve it all is by being able to cancel the shot which right now is not possible

given how important it is to make the other team fill up the vac, I actually think increased suction capacity might actually make it worse, because it would be harder to get your main back and get the powerful shot.

Here's an idea. What if the suction area is extended to go 10 or 20% further away from the vac user, something like this?

This wouldn't change how hard it is to fight the vac up close, because nothing about that part of the hitbox is changed, but it would mean that it's easier to protect teammates using it, making it easier to force opponents to fill the vac. I think it's fair to also reduce the capacity by 5 or 10% so that cheesing the rainmaker isn't more annoying than it already is, and so that it's easier to get a more powerful shot.

 

[OnePotWonder]

That's an... interesting take. I think we should wait until zooka is fixed, and then see how it feels from there.


given how important it is to make the other team fill up the vac, I actually think increased suction capacity might actually make it worse, because it would be harder to get your main back and get the powerful shot.

Here's an idea. What if the suction area is extended to go 10 or 20% further away from the vac user, something like this?
View attachment 11173
This wouldn't change how hard it is to fight the vac up close, because nothing about that part of the hitbox is changed, but it would mean that it's easier to protect teammates using it, making it easier to force opponents to fill the vac. I think it's fair to also reduce the capacity by 5 or 10% so that cheesing the rainmaker isn't more annoying than it already is, and so that it's easier to get a more powerful shot.

Here's my take on changing Vac, it's a bit avant-garde, but I think it could be interesting: Give it a second ring of charge.

So, we increase the capacity of the special, but give it access to its shot once it's half full, without removing the suction. It can fire the shot by releasing the trigger, but there's still a delay between the suction ending and the shot firing.

This is probably not viable to add with mods, but it would be cool.

 

[youre_a_squib_now]

You know, fair enough. Zap did get a few unnecessary fighting buffs during the golden age of Pencil. I still think a paint nerf for Shot would be good to cement Zap's support identity better, but Zap getting its shot spread back would also help make the distinction.

I do agree that shooters in general need to be more distinct from each other, and zap and shot are two especially close ones. I don't think they need nerfs, but small ones are probably okay. They need to definitely stay in high tier or at the very least high mid tier, because they're supposed to be flexible and easy to pick up and use. I think the zooka nerf will do most of this, although like I said, I wouldn't have too much of a problem with a small nerf, especially if it helps make them more distinct.

Okay so I just played '89 again to test out 170p chumps and apparently it has ridiculously good rng now??? You should probably revert some or most of this. I definitely see why people are saying it's too similar to other weapons.