Splatoon 2: Find Out What's Fresh! (General Discussion)

[MINKUKEL]

Can someone explain to me what makes splashdown and tenta missiles so bad in competitive? I use em all the time and they help more than hinder, but they're the talk of the town when it comes to worse specials.

Competitive is just a world of its own. Things that apply there don't necessarily apply in normal play.
In normal games, Splashdown and Tenta Missles are fine.

In order to counter a Splashdown you need to 1) react quickly enough, 2) aim quickly enough, 3) have a weapon that damages quickly enough to kill the person. That takes a lot of deliberate practice, which is why the 'problem' of shutting down Splashdowns isn't relevant outside of competitive.

Maybe it's a hard sell in competitive whereas Inkjet is good there, I don't know because I don't follow competitive, and I frankly don't care. All I know is that in normal play, people suck *** with the Inkjet, and the Splashdown is very usable.

That, and the (personal) fact that the base TTek looks NAUSEATING.

I doubt people held back on playing it because they didn't like the way it looked, lol.

 

[Cyber locc]

Competitive is just a world of its own. Things that apply there don't necessarily apply in normal play.
In normal games, Splashdown and Tenta Missles are fine.

In order to counter a Splashdown you need to 1) react quickly enough, 2) aim quickly enough, 3) have a weapon that damages quickly enough to kill the person. That takes a lot of deliberate practice, which is why the 'problem' of shutting down Splashdowns isn't relevant outside of competitive.

Maybe it's a hard sell in competitive whereas Inkjet is good there, I don't know because I don't follow competitive, and I frankly don't care. All I know is that in normal play, people suck *** with the Inkjet, and the Splashdown is very usable.

I doubt people held back on playing it because they didn't like the way it looked, lol.

I have to say I find Injet very easy to counter as well. It suffers from the same issue as splash down IMO. Granted countering splash down is easier especially being not so high up (as I main roller) I can usually kill an inkjeter without too much diffuculty.

I see splash down as more versatile. It can be used to try and kill, which usually doesn't work if the enemy has attention span at all. However it's fill your ink and drop some is more useful in my use.

Ofc that could be a symptom of people sucking with inkjet a d against splashdown like you said.

 

[Gameboy224]

I have to say I find Injet very easy to counter as well. It suffers from the same issue as splash down IMO. Granted countering splash down is easier especially being not so high up (as I main roller) I can usually kill an inkjeter without too much diffuculty.

I see splash down as more versatile. It can be used to try and kill, which usually doesn't work if the enemy has attention span at all. However it's fill your ink and drop some is more useful in my use.

Ofc that could be a symptom of people sucking with inkjet a d against splashdown like you said.

The difference is that a good Inkjet knows how to keep their distance or they'll know how to take out immediate threats fast. That and they usually know how to take advantage of the terrain and elevate themselves to safe location. And actually use the jump button.

Splashdown requires you to be close to the enemy, meaning you're always gonna be vulnerable when you use it.

 

[MINKUKEL]

But you'd use a Splashdown more defensive most of the time, so that doesn't really matter.

 

[Metasepia]

But you'd use a Splashdown more defensive most of the time, so that doesn't really matter.

It does matter though. If you are using Splashdown defensively chances are you have taken damage from a long range opponent where your Splashdown won't do anything. It's best used as a panic button but, in this meta that's not enough to make it a notable threat. Sure you can use it to claim a zone, surprise super jump campers or refill your ink tank but it's versatility is outclassed by the Inkjet.

 

[Spaceswitchmars]

It does matter though. If you are using Splashdown defensively chances are you have taken damage from a long range opponent where your Splashdown won't do anything. It's best used as a panic button but, in this meta that's not enough to make it a notable threat. Sure you can use it to claim a zone, surprise super jump campers or refill your ink tank but it's versatility is outclassed by the Inkjet.

The thing is, Splashdown was a very easy thing to fix, but somehow Nintendo couldn't figure out how to correctly patch it. All they had to do was:

1. Make it invincible its entire time. You cannot shoot down a splashdown, but in return for that...
2. Make its area of effect significantly smaller.
3. Make the circle that shows the area of effect actually show the area of effect.
4. Make it take longer from the start of the splashdown to the actual damage portion of the splashdown so people have more time to get out of the way and reposition.

That's it. Do that, and the splashdown is perfect. It works even better as a panic button without some of the cheese that makes it annoying when it doesn't get shot down (in its current state).

 

[Cephalobro]

Something I don't understand about the Splashdown is why it deals damage vertically as well. I have experienced that in Kelp Dome when I was on the grate at my team's Spawn, a Splashdown should not reach that high since there is no indication of the ink effect being done vertically.

 

[Maave]

3. Make the circle that shows the area of effect actually show the area of effect.

Just do this part and I'll be happy

 

[Gameboy224]

The thing is, Splashdown was a very easy thing to fix, but somehow Nintendo couldn't figure out how to correctly patch it. All they had to do was:

1. Make it invincible its entire time. You cannot shoot down a splashdown, but in return for that...
2. Make its area of effect significantly smaller.
3. Make the circle that shows the area of effect actually show the area of effect.
4. Make it take longer from the start of the splashdown to the actual damage portion of the splashdown so people have more time to get out of the way and reposition.

That's it. Do that, and the splashdown is perfect. It works even better as a panic button without some of the cheese that makes it annoying when it doesn't get shot down (in its current state).

1. Here's the thing. The Splashdown was specifically designed to have the Achilles Heel of being shot down, that's is an inherent part of the special's design, just as a long ranged weapon could pick off an Injket.

Just because the special is unfavorable in the metagame does not mean there is anything inherently wrong with the special. It just means the meta had adapted to exploit its key weakness. But the simple fact that Splashdown is still very viable to anybody less than upper tier competitive shows the weapon is still fairly balanced in the overall ecosystem.

2 & 3. That being said, the actual attack itself does not need any form of nerf or buff, though a better means to telling where the attack's maximum reach would be appreciated, given it does have an abnormally large minimum splash damage range in comparison to other attacks.

4. No. Splashdown's current casting time is already enough for most people to get a clue to try to escape unless you're literally right on top of them, especially if somebody is using say a dualie. It is a special designed for close quarters offense and taking out people around you, increasing the casting time would effectively make it worse at the only thing it was good for. Splashdown is not a particularly complex special in terms of playing into a greater composition.

 

[MINKUKEL]

If you are using Splashdown defensively chances are you have taken damage from a long range opponent where your Splashdown won't do anything.

Obviously you wouldn't use it then.

 

[Spaceswitchmars]

1. Here's the thing. The Splashdown was specifically designed to have the Achilles Heel of being shot down, that's is an inherent part of the special's design, just as a long ranged weapon could pick off an Injket.

Just because the special is unfavorable in the metagame does not mean there is anything inherently wrong with the special. It just means the meta had adapted to exploit its key weakness. But the simple fact that Splashdown is still very viable to anybody less than upper tier competitive shows the weapon is still fairly balanced in the overall ecosystem.

2 & 3. That being said, the actual attack itself does not need any form of nerf or buff, though a better means to telling where the attack's maximum reach would be appreciated, given it does have an abnormally large minimum splash damage range in comparison to other attacks.

4. No. Splashdown's current casting time is already enough for most people to get a clue to try to escape unless you're literally right on top of them, especially if somebody is using say a dualie. It is a special designed for close quarters offense and taking out people around you, increasing the casting time would effectively make it worse at the only thing it was good for. Splashdown is not a particularly complex special in terms of playing into a greater composition.

Sometimes a special needs some tweaking, and Nintendo does such tweaking by things called, "patches." You may remember this special called "sting ray." It wasn't good, and then Nintendo patched it so it was good. Then it was too good, so Nintendo patched it again. Through the patches, the basic idea stayed the same but the execution changed. Now the this sting ray is pretty well balanced.

But also, you can't pick apart all of my points as separate ideas from one another as if they weren't designed to all work in tandem. The extra casting time is to add a weakness because I took away another weakness (the ability to shoot it down). See? The points work together once you take some extra casting time to think about them.

At any rate, the problem with splash down is it's too easy to shoot it down, making it a not so great pick as a special in a game where specials are kind of the most important thing.

My proposition is to keep the basic idea of the splashdown (it paints and it's also a "panic button" special) while tweaking some aspects of it. here, it's less offensive and more defensive, which is honestly a better use of the splashdown anyway. This is just one such proposition for tweaking it so the special is a good pick again. I'm open to other suggestions, but the special does need patched in some way.

 

[MINKUKEL]

It wouldn't really be OP if you take away the ability to shoot someone down though. So I don't think it needs any counter for that.

Ordinarily I would say to leave something alone if it's a competitive-oriented change, but considering it won't make a spot of difference in normal play, I would actually be in favor of making Splashdown users invincible the whole time.

 

[Dewnose]

If you don’t mind me jumping in, we should move on. @Spaceswitchmars ’s opinion is an opinion and not fact; I’m glad he made that clear. If you want to continue the argument, I think you should make a thread for it. If you want my opinion on his opinion, it’s here:

Spoiler: Opinionated Content

Splashdown may not be fine as is, but if we’re changing it, it shouldn’t be defensively. It’s not only used as a panic button; doing your changes would ruin its offensive capabilities. On the other hand, a way to see the chip damage radius would be great; but keep the line we already have, that shows the splatting radius.

...PS, sorry if I don’t have the authority to back this; just felt I should say something.

 

[Gameboy224]

Sometimes a special needs some tweaking, and Nintendo does such tweaking by things called, "patches." You may remember this special called "sting ray." It wasn't good, and then Nintendo patched it so it was good. Then it was too good, so Nintendo patched it again. Through the patches, the basic idea stayed the same but the execution changed. Now the this sting ray is pretty well balanced.

But also, you can't pick apart all of my points as separate ideas from one another as if they weren't designed to all work in tandem. The extra casting time is to add a weakness because I took away another weakness (the ability to shoot it down). See? The points work together once you take some extra casting time to think about them.

At any rate, the problem with splash down is it's too easy to shoot it down, making it a not so great pick as a special in a game where specials are kind of the most important thing.

My proposition is to keep the basic idea of the splashdown (it paints and it's also a "panic button" special) while tweaking some aspects of it. here, it's less offensive and more defensive, which is honestly a better use of the splashdown anyway. This is just one such proposition for tweaking it so the special is a good pick again. I'm open to other suggestions, but the special does need patched in some way.

I mean, all together, you basically just nerfed Splashdown to the ground barring it not being able to be shot down. You proposed to nerf its range and increase its cast time. Those two changes alone basically wreck any good the special had, even if you can't be splatted during it anymore.

But beyond just that, giving it complete invincibility undermines the new design philosophy that all Splatoon 2's special fall under. They all aren't safe. Inkjet makes you an obvious target, Ink Armor has a buffer time, Baller can be destroyed, the rest leave you fairly open while they're active.

 

[Cyber locc]

The difference is that a good Inkjet knows how to keep their distance or they'll know how to take out immediate threats fast. That and they usually know how to take advantage of the terrain and elevate themselves to safe location. And actually use the jump button.

Splashdown requires you to be close to the enemy, meaning you're always gonna be vulnerable when you use it.

Well that's true, but I am a roller lol, I am always close to an enemy, and as such vunerable.

Ninja Squid helps alot with that however and allows me to sneak in a Splashdown if I wanted. I usually just flick though and use splashdown as defense/ink recovery. JS my flick and splash down have a pretty similar range.

 

[Spaceswitchmars]

I mean, all together, you basically just nerfed Splashdown to the ground barring it not being able to be shot down. You proposed to nerf its range and increase its cast time. Those two changes alone basically wreck any good the special had, even if you can't be splatted during it anymore.

But beyond just that, giving it complete invincibility undermines the new design philosophy that all Splatoon 2's special fall under. They all aren't safe. Inkjet makes you an obvious target, Ink Armor has a buffer time, Baller can be destroyed, the rest leave you fairly open while they're active.

I’ll leave it here becaause as @Dewnose pointed out, we’ve gone long (we can argue more in DMs or in another thread if you want, but I think we’re mostly at a standstill on our respect opinions):

Spoiler: Opinions inside

I think splashdown was kind of a waste of a special design in the first place because, other than the superjump-splashdown gimmick, baller does pretty much all the best things splashdown does. I know they’re not exactly the same, but a lot of the objective-oriented uses of both are similar enough that I’m not really sure why we have both. I’ve thought that from day one, and it’s kind of one of the few lack of creativity moments Nintendo has shown in this game.

That said, while the purposes of the splashdown with my changes would defensive (IE-staying alive), it’s defensive in a way that encourages very aggressive offense (IE-overextending/taking on several enemies at once). At least this is so on slaying weapons.

On something like the hydra or goo, it would allow them to stay alive longer, which is helpful for any backliner.

It’s true that this goes against their philosophy of being able to stop specials in some way. But this special wasn’t particularly thought out well. With how quickly it goes up and down, there’s a very thin line between “too easy to take down” and “too hard to take down.” And it’s a line so thin that I don’t know if it’s even possible for Nintendo to hit it right on the line. They haven’t yet, and they haven’t really gotten close.

But again, this is my opinion. There are other ways to make the special viable again. Maybe it’s just tinkering with it already is like they have been or maybe it’s something none of us have figured out yet.

 

[Elecmaw]

Splashdown got (accidentally) nerfed due to a quirk in the latest patch that made the armor appear way too late during activating it, meaning you can just shoot the squid out of the sky most of the time. Which is why in low-end play it's still strong because it requires twitch reflexes to gun the squid/octo out of the sky.

The effectiveness of Tenta Missiles are mostly determined by RNG and not by the player. You lock on, and it causes the targets to move and hopefully one of them flounders in the missiles. But you have little control on the special itself beyond on what targets will end up being marked, making it trivial for your marked targets to dodge the missiles. There could be some synergy with marking targets and then use the resulting chaos to score a quick kill, but you enter a really long animation while doing so and the arrows give away your position so that's not really viable.
It mostly ends up being overshadowed by Stingray as killing/denial tool.

 

[Cyber locc]

Splashdown got (accidentally) nerfed due to a quirk in the latest patch that made the armor appear way too late during activating it, meaning you can just shoot the squid out of the sky most of the time. Which is why in low-end play it's still strong because it requires twitch reflexes to gun the squid/octo out of the sky.

The effectiveness of Tenta Missiles are mostly determined by RNG and not by the player. You lock on, and it causes the targets to move and hopefully one of them flounders in the missiles. But you have little control on the special itself beyond on what targets will end up being marked, making it trivial for your marked targets to dodge the missiles. There could be some synergy with marking targets and then use the resulting chaos to score a quick kill, but you enter a really long animation while doing so and the arrows give away your position so that's not really viable.
It mostly ends up being overshadowed by Stingray as killing/denial tool.

It was accidental? So that means it will be fixed?

I haven't been playing as long as most you likely. However I have not once died to Tenta Missiles, it's easily spotted animation and easy to get out of IMO.

 

[MINKUKEL]

I doubt they make that good use of Tenta Missles on lower levels. I mean, it's a very easy special to just mindlessly fire off.

Tenta Missles are useful if you want to help spread some chaos, and unlike the Stingray you can continue firing with your main weapon to aid the missles. Plus, they show where opponents are, for your teammates as well.

It's more of a support special than an offensive one. But you can easily get some random kills with it too.

 

[Metasepia]

Personally, I think that a decent buff for the Tenta Missiles would be for them to show your teammates the enemy position from when you are locking on to when the missiles are about to land on the opponents. This means for the entirety for the duration of the special, whoever is in your reticle can be seen by all of your teammates.