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True for goofing off. It’s like shooting at clay pigeons XD
But when I play series, this clip plays in my head throughout the entire time after someone named “MEGAULTRAKILLER420” flanks me for the 10th time because my teammates are busy doing whatever. (Although very VERY rarely that leads to badass moments when the brush trips over 2 ink mines and I 180 tap it with a partial)
They are definitely a counter to chargers, but like… they can still be incredibly destructive in unprepared soloQ.
I played both inkbrush and octobrush for a bit following an advice of “If a weapon is beating you, try playing it and you’ll learn it’s limits and counters” and yeah, inkbrush does have pretty low damage and range but with the Octobrush I consistently got 13+ splats by just running around. I was at A+ then. I also feel like the reason brush doesn’t work as well in higher competitive is because teams are a lot more organised and any brush is pretty easily countered. It can wreak havoc on SoloQ because barely anyone is organised and a lot of the times backline is completely unprotected
That's kind of just an anecdote? I mostly only have trouble with brushes when I play Tri-Stringer myself (though I've gotten better) but that's just anecdote of course.
Honestly this thread is the first time I've actually heard people talk about brushes this way. If you look at either the X Rank or Splatfest leaderboards on Splanet, brushes aren't really all that common (and note these are both solo q). It is true that this is at the top level, so even if they aren't communicating the players are probably on the lookout for flanks (though this also means that it's a skill anyone can learn) so maybe brushes are much more effective at different skill levels....but how is that different than clash? And even if they are on the stronger than average, how does that make them different than other strong weapons you hear people complain about like range blaster, clash blaster (at lower levels), e-liter, naut, 52 gal, stamper etc.
I guess it's not really possible tell for sure without a more thorough dataset (which Nintendo doesn't provide), but I'm really having trouble seeing brushes as being too powerful, let alone destructive for the game. And if they are too powerful (which again I'm dubious of) the solution is a nerf, not to get rid of them.
Edit: honestly, this whole thing kind of reminds me of the complaints some people make about chargers. Like how the fact they can delete you from halfway across the map ruins game or something.
I guess it's not really possible tell for sure without a more thorough dataset (which Nintendo doesn't provide), but I'm really having trouble seeing brushes as being too powerful, let alone destructive for the game. And if they are too powerful (which again I'm dubious of) the solution is a nerf, not to get rid of them.
My reasoning behind their removal isn't that they're too powerful. As the evidence has stated, none of the brushes are strong right now, even at lower levels of play. The reason I think brushes are the best bet to be removed is because the few strengths they do possess are all flatly annoying. Massive attack area. Evasiveness. Able to easily reach your backline.
The main reason, though, is because it's the only entire weapon class that could be reasonably removed. The only reason to remove an individual weapon from a class that will continue to exist is if it's unsalvageably underpowered or utterly broken. Removing a weapon class as a whole would create more space for Nintendo to add more new weapon classes.
Honestly, we'll be hard pressed to get any new brushes anyway. The class is so mundane that the only variables to mess with are range, speed, and power. They are, for all intents and purposes, just rollers without vertical flicks.
That's kind of just an anecdote? I mostly only have trouble with brushes when I play Tri-Stringer myself (though I've gotten better) but that's just anecdote of course.
Honestly this thread is the first time I've actually heard people talk about brushes this way. If you look at either the X Rank or Splatfest leaderboards on Splanet, brushes aren't really all that common (and note these are both solo q). It is true that this is at the top level, so even if they aren't communicating the players are probably on the lookout for flanks (though this also means that it's a skill anyone can learn) so maybe brushes are much more effective at different skill levels....but how is that different than clash? And even if they are on the stronger than average, how does that make them different than other strong weapons you hear people complain about like range blaster, clash blaster (at lower levels), e-liter, naut, 52 gal, stamper etc.
I guess it's not really possible tell for sure without a more thorough dataset (which Nintendo doesn't provide), but I'm really having trouble seeing brushes as being too powerful, let alone destructive for the game. And if they are too powerful (which again I'm dubious of) the solution is a nerf, not to get rid of them.
Edit: honestly, this whole thing kind of reminds me of the complaints some people make about chargers. Like how the fact they can delete you from halfway across the map ruins game or something.
Yeah, until we get real and actual data by Nintendo, we will never know.
This take is very IMHO but just thinking about it, personally I don’t think “Annoyance of other players” is a good weapon design philosophy. The reason some weapons stop working later on (Clash blaster and alike) is because people now can counter a clash blaster by just standing back or having a backline deal with it or throwing a bomb or something. There are more tactics involved now other than just shooting bad guys. Positioning now matters greatly, because if you position badly, you will be splatted by a charger. A P90 from CS is also the exact same story. After a while, spray and pray doesn’t work since you’re just headshotted before you can deal enough damage, making the P90 player learn different strategies or weapons.
The brush has a bit of that. You don’t really need precise aim like a charger, or to a lesser extent, a shooter/dualie. But that’s also the deal with rollers. What rollers don’t have is the insane speed that a brush does. It’s perfect at evading shots and retreating making it, inherently, less punishing for mistakes. If a clash blaster, for example, pushes a bit too much, it’s quickly splatted.
Also another reason I just thought of why brushes don’t have a lot of presence at the higher ranks is that it’s annoyance and evasiveness is kinda all it really has. A splatana or other (skirmisher/lurker) might be less evasive but also able to accomplish a lot more.
At lower ranks, where roles aren’t clearly defined or it’s all up to the mercy of matchmaking, brushes are still effective.
BUT With all that said, would I want them gone forever, banished to the depths? No. I feel like that’s a bit too drastic. However, if a theoretical question at Nintendo HQ was “We have to ABSOLUTELY cut a weapon class for our new Splatoon 4 weapon class. Which one are we cutting?” I think the brushes would be first in line.
I don't have any polling to back this up I highly doubt that there is a big consensus that brushes are just designed around being annoying. And how else would TikTokers draw hearts and other stuff on the ground? I'm joking a little but brushes are pretty damn popular. This is going back to something I was debating about but Nintendo won't (nor do I think they should) get rid of a really popular weapon, let alone weapon a whole class.
I started to write a long paragraph about why I don't think brushes are "punished less for their mistakes" but at this point I doubt I'm going to convince either of you any more than you are likely to convince me so I guess I'll just leave it at that.
The overarching point is this: I would gladly sacrifice brushes if necessary in order to get a new weapon class.
I don't think brushes need to be removed from the next game. They're fine, and the game isn't close to having to many weapons.
I just think that if anything, brushes could be removed. Replaced by or reworked into another new class that's a bit more interesting.
Maybe they don't need to remove an entire weapon class, maybe they would just remove weapons with gimmicks. Examples of weapons with gimmicks include the S'Blast and the Snipewriter.
Maybe they don't need to remove an entire weapon class, maybe they would just remove weapons with gimmicks. Examples of weapons with gimmicks include the S'Blast and the Snipewriter.
I feel like more gimmicks should become features. It'd be interesting to see a non-lethal blaster with a different jump shot or a charger that can fire twice with a full charge. Sheldon's description of the Nautilus 47 calls it the *first* splatling to be able to hold a charge.
We can create a lot of interesting new weapons this way that don't feel so unique as to be separate from the rest of their class.
Weapons having unique attributes is a good thing. But I can think of a few weapons whose gimmicks are just poorly designed and aren't worth bringing back. Though I suspect I'd end up starting a fight if I named which weapons I'd cut if I was in charge, don't think there's any real point in giving my own list.
Weapons having unique attributes is a good thing. But I can think of a few weapons whose gimmicks are just poorly designed and aren't worth bringing back. Though I suspect I'd end up starting a fight if I named which weapons I'd cut if I was in charge, don't think there's any real point in giving my own list.
Well, now I must know.
Considering that you see your opinions as controversial, that only increases the likelihood of me agreeing with them.
Unless you don't like the Nozzlenoses. In which case we may have a problem.
Eh, y'know what, screw it, let's make some people mad at me.
Clash Blaster: Do I even need to explain this one? Clash belongs to a category of weapons that are perma-bottom tier because I actually think the developers know how unhealthy it would be for the game if it was ever allowed to be good. And if that's the jail a weapon has to be stuck in, let's just let it go.
Bloblobber: I have a soft spot for this weapon. I am a zoner at heart and this actually feels to me like fighting game zoning in Splatoon. But it belongs to the same tier as Clash, I am putting my bias aside and admitting it would be for the best to drop this one. It's a very mindless weapon that just consists of hoping someone walks into all four blobs. Four blobs may as well be random crits. The shot velocity is too slow to fight with intentionality, and so it drops off as soon as opponents stop standing still.
Undercover Brella: Also in Clash tier. Any weapon low level players rate extremely highly but sees no play at top level, that's a sign of a deeper design issue. Though I know said players love it way too much to ever accept losing it, this is the one that will really make people hate me.
Goo Tuber: The problem with Goo Tuber is that the gimmick simply isn't useful. At all. You never use it. Charge hold got a do-over on Nautilus, and actually turned out to be a lot better on a Splatling, so we may as well leave this failed prototype behind.
Squeezer: As I said before, this weapon is bad for your hands. That's the real reason to get rid of it. And if you have to implement anti-turbo measures, that's even more reason why you shouldn't have put this kind of mashing in the game in the first place.
Splattershot Nova: What is this weapon's purpose? Why does it exist? What identity does it have besides "bad Pro"? I remember this weapon was announced with a trait that the accuracy doesn't get worse as you continue firing... but the accuracy already sucks to begin with so wow what an especially meaningless trait. What was the point of this?
Big Swig Roller: See Nova. I just don't know what the point of this weapon was supposed to be. Big Carbon? Big Carbon is just vRoller!
Glooga Dualies: Worse vDualie. That's all it is really.
Heavy Edit Splatling: You can see this as either a shorter range vHeavy or slower charge Nautilus, they combined the weaker attributes of those two weapons. If it didn't have Cooler there would be no reason to play it over either of those.
Snipewriter: This weapon's gimmick is actually pretty valid, and probably wouldn't be a problem in S4 if it simply doesn't have Cooler again. But I vote we punish it for its sins anyway.
Sploosh/Aerospray: These two are the exact same weapon. Why do we have both? Cut one. I would say Aerospray but we'd have a Little Timmy riot on our hands. Hell, maybe even cut both because Jr. exists, but then there really would be chaos in the streets.
Rapid Blaster/Pro: This is a weapon that gets to have four kits when everyone else gets two. I don't know why they did that, but we don't need both. I want to say keep the Pro and cut regular.
Eh, y'know what, screw it, let's make some people mad at me.
Clash Blaster: Do I even need to explain this one? Clash belongs to a category of weapons that are perma-bottom tier because I actually think the developers know how unhealthy it would be for the game if it was ever allowed to be good. And if that's the jail a weapon has to be stuck in, let's just let it go.
Bloblobber: I have a soft spot for this weapon. I am a zoner at heart and this actually feels to me like fighting game zoning in Splatoon. But it belongs to the same tier as Clash, I am putting my bias aside and admitting it would be for the best to drop this one. It's a very mindless weapon that just consists of hoping someone walks into all four blobs. Four blobs may as well be random crits. The shot velocity is too slow to fight with intentionality, and so it drops off as soon as opponents stop standing still.
Undercover Brella: Also in Clash tier. Any weapon low level players rate extremely highly but sees no play at top level, that's a sign of a deeper design issue. Though I know said players love it way too much to ever accept losing it, this is the one that will really make people hate me.
Goo Tuber: The problem with Goo Tuber is that the gimmick simply isn't useful. At all. You never use it. Charge hold got a do-over on Nautilus, and actually turned out to be a lot better on a Splatling, so we may as well leave this failed prototype behind.
Squeezer: As I said before, this weapon is bad for your hands. That's the real reason to get rid of it. And if you have to implement anti-turbo measures, that's even more reason why you shouldn't have put this kind of mashing in the game in the first place.
Splattershot Nova: What is this weapon's purpose? Why does it exist? What identity does it have besides "bad Pro"? I remember this weapon was announced with a trait that the accuracy doesn't get worse as you continue firing... but the accuracy already sucks to begin with so wow what an especially meaningless trait. What was the point of this?
Big Swig Roller: See Nova. I just don't know what the point of this weapon was supposed to be. Big Carbon? Big Carbon is just vRoller!
Glooga Dualies: Worse vDualie. That's all it is really.
Heavy Edit Splatling: You can see this as either a shorter range vHeavy or slower charge Nautilus, they combined the weaker attributes of those two weapons. If it didn't have Cooler there would be no reason to play it over either of those.
Snipewriter: This weapon's gimmick is actually pretty valid, and probably wouldn't be a problem in S4 if it simply doesn't have Cooler again. But I vote we punish it for its sins anyway.
Sploosh/Aerospray: These two are the exact same weapon. Why do we have both? Cut one. I would say Aerospray but we'd have a Little Timmy riot on our hands. Hell, maybe even cut both because Jr. exists, but then there really would be chaos in the streets.
Rapid Blaster/Pro: This is a weapon that gets to have four kits when everyone else gets two. I don't know why they did that, but we don't need both. I want to say keep the Pro and cut regular.
Re Clash, Undercover, Aerospray and Blob: I've always been under the assumption that these weapons were specifically designed for beginners or just casual players. But if that's the case I actually see them as well designed, not poorly designed. They can do something if your aim isn't that great (or if you haven't learned the intricacies of brellas in the case of undercover). Obviously they fall off at higher skill levels but I kind of think it's fine to have weapons meant for lower skill level players. They are part of the player base as too.
I agree about Goo, Nova and Big Swig. I feel like Pencil is good candidate for removal because...it's kind of boring to play? And yeah it's a lot weaker without cooler. And yeah Ia gree Rapid and Rapid Pro can probably be combined into one or something.
Eh, y'know what, screw it, let's make some people mad at me.
Clash Blaster: Do I even need to explain this one? Clash belongs to a category of weapons that are perma-bottom tier because I actually think the developers know how unhealthy it would be for the game if it was ever allowed to be good. And if that's the jail a weapon has to be stuck in, let's just let it go.
Bloblobber: I have a soft spot for this weapon. I am a zoner at heart and this actually feels to me like fighting game zoning in Splatoon. But it belongs to the same tier as Clash, I am putting my bias aside and admitting it would be for the best to drop this one. It's a very mindless weapon that just consists of hoping someone walks into all four blobs. Four blobs may as well be random crits. The shot velocity is too slow to fight with intentionality, and so it drops off as soon as opponents stop standing still.
Undercover Brella: Also in Clash tier. Any weapon low level players rate extremely highly but sees no play at top level, that's a sign of a deeper design issue. Though I know said players love it way too much to ever accept losing it, this is the one that will really make people hate me.
Goo Tuber: The problem with Goo Tuber is that the gimmick simply isn't useful. At all. You never use it. Charge hold got a do-over on Nautilus, and actually turned out to be a lot better on a Splatling, so we may as well leave this failed prototype behind.
Squeezer: As I said before, this weapon is bad for your hands. That's the real reason to get rid of it. And if you have to implement anti-turbo measures, that's even more reason why you shouldn't have put this kind of mashing in the game in the first place.
Splattershot Nova: What is this weapon's purpose? Why does it exist? What identity does it have besides "bad Pro"? I remember this weapon was announced with a trait that the accuracy doesn't get worse as you continue firing... but the accuracy already sucks to begin with so wow what an especially meaningless trait. What was the point of this?
Big Swig Roller: See Nova. I just don't know what the point of this weapon was supposed to be. Big Carbon? Big Carbon is just vRoller!
Glooga Dualies: Worse vDualie. That's all it is really.
Heavy Edit Splatling: You can see this as either a shorter range vHeavy or slower charge Nautilus, they combined the weaker attributes of those two weapons. If it didn't have Cooler there would be no reason to play it over either of those.
Snipewriter: This weapon's gimmick is actually pretty valid, and probably wouldn't be a problem in S4 if it simply doesn't have Cooler again. But I vote we punish it for its sins anyway.
Sploosh/Aerospray: These two are the exact same weapon. Why do we have both? Cut one. I would say Aerospray but we'd have a Little Timmy riot on our hands. Hell, maybe even cut both because Jr. exists, but then there really would be chaos in the streets.
Rapid Blaster/Pro: This is a weapon that gets to have four kits when everyone else gets two. I don't know why they did that, but we don't need both. I want to say keep the Pro and cut regular.
Goo Tuber's rework potential is extremely high because it has a lot of gimmicks to trade in for better base stats. It could be removed, but if you ask me, it kind of seems like a waste. I do agree that the five second charge hold is practically useless.
Gloogas are different enough from Splat Dualies that they're distinct, though I'll admit that they're forgettable. I really want them to be better because they're actually quite fun. It's nice to have a two-shot that will actually hit opponents at range.
Heavy Edit is the only one I strongly disagree with, as the weapon is very fun despite its odd-looking stats. A combination of excellent mobility and paint makes it perfectly suited for a support role, which is clearly what the devs were going for. It certainly looks odd at first with its worse range and charge time, but it more than makes up for it by being better at literally everything else.
Snipewriter is better than the other two long-range chargers due to its non-lethality, IMO. I can understand disliking Pencil H, but I'd sooner remove Tacticooler, personally. The only part of the weapon I can't stand is it doing 68 damage per shot when 65 is right there, the gun is obviously overtuned, and every other charger does damage as a multiple of five.
As for the Rapid Blasters, I think the two are more than distinct enough to be their own weapons. Though I must respect your taste for removing the short Rapid over the Pro.
Clash, Blob, Undercover, Squeezer, Nova, Swig, and the spray shooters could all be scrapped and I wouldn't be sad.
I give you three peppers out of five for take hotness. People who like shooters may disagree.
Re Clash, Undercover, Aerospray and Blob: I've always been under the assumption that these weapons were specifically designed for beginners or just casual players. But if that's the case I actually see them as well designed, not poorly designed. They can do something if your aim isn't that great (or if you haven't learned the intricacies of brellas in the case of undercover). Obviously they fall off at higher skill levels but I kind of think it's fine to have weapons meant for lower skill level players. They are part of the player base as too.
I don't think giving beginners intentionally bad weapons is good game design. That ends up becoming a crutch that keeps them from learning, as they hit a local maxima and get stuck. Especially when these weapons are kinda far removed from anything else in the game, which only makes it harder to transition off and learn something else.
Goo Tuber's rework potential is extremely high because it has a lot of gimmicks to trade in for better base stats. It could be removed, but if you ask me, it kind of seems like a waste. I do agree that the five second charge hold is practically useless.
Well, the idea is you keep some of the gimmicks and only buff its charge time. That way you get a second aggro charger that's clearly distinct from Squiffer.
Though, personally, I'd turn the thing into a Stringer.
I don't think giving beginners intentionally bad weapons is good game design. That ends up becoming a crutch that keeps them from learning, as they hit a local maxima and get stuck. Especially when these weapons are kinda far removed from anything else in the game, which only makes it harder to transition off and learn something else.
Yeah but some (most?) people don't want or need to get better. Some people just casually play the funny squid game with their friends and have no intention of reaching a higher level of play. You can't get stuck if you aren't planning on going anywhere. There are people who *only* play Turf War long after they've unlocked ranked (I once uploaded a TikTok clip and someone asked what was wrong with the timer since it was above 3 minutes...I was really confused until someone else comment in that I wasn't playing turf). Not everyone who plays needs to have a competitive mindset. Some people find that fun (probably most of the people on this forum) thats not the case for everyone who plays the game, and that's fine.
I get that there might be some people who do want to get better and for which these weapons do become could become a crutch, but think that's kind of just a tradeoff the devs have to make. And given that the internet exists, is pretty easy for people to learn that these weapons are actually bad if you want to get better.
