Why Competitive Splatoon should use all Game Modes instead of one

Mr.HawK

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SPEAKING OF HAVING FUN, why dont we all write to nintendo asking them to stop making modes that allow a casual setting, cuz you know, it not like that ever helps anyone achieve a certain knowledge that lets them attempt to advance to skillful areas of competitive levels. So Basically the TL;DR of this is

Dear Nintendo,

Turf war is luck based and not worth playing due to most of us here who burn up at the sight of casual play more than a Twilight vampire does when standing in the sun. Please take it out because we want things and we deserve them.

Sincerely,
Some guy who's gonna say he's A+ 99, and wants turf war to be everything but timed.

did i do good?
 
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Yogororo

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Off topic: Double post central over here

On topic: Like it or not, Turf will always come down to the last* 30 secs. Unless we can some how lower the time to around 1 min per round on there, I don't see it being the end all be all mode. Instead of aggressively pushing for Turf right away, take the time now to see how we can include it into another format, such as 2v2s, 3v3s, regular, or some kind of Death match format. On the actual subject, we need to also think about the new modes and what part they could play, such as bi weekly rotations for SZ TC and RM (and TW for now).

Edit: Words is hard
 
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Mr.HawK

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Off topic: Double post central over here

On topic: Like it or not, Turf will always come down to the 30 secs. Unless we can some how lower the time to around 1 min per round on there, I don't see it being the end all be all mode. Instead of aggressively pushing for Turf right away, take the time now to see how we can include it into another format, such as 2v2s, 3v3s, regular, or some kind of Death match format. On the actual subject, we need to also think about the new modes and what part they could play, such as bi weekly rotations for SZ TC and RM (and TW for now).
honestly yeah, i'd love that. but due to what everyone's been talking about here, there's no way that'll happen. I'd love to be wrong but then again whats the point now? oh and btw dont take my previous posts seriously, i was literally just poking fun at everything
 

Drez

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Then if it gets to the point where "there's more than just in game rewards" why would we choose to play something as random as Turf War? Read flc's post right above yours if you don't believe me (a random internet user with very little credibility when it comes to Splatoon).
All game modes means you can choose which ever mode you want bro. Be our guest.
 

Drez

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I just want to play Turf Wars. Not what you want to play. Some people don't want to 'mess' (improve) with turf wars yet complain about it. I'm alright with playing it like CS:GO, but I'd also like to play it as Splatoon, it's own thing. Let it be itself. Regardless, I think we should try before we buy. We should give (if we ever have the chance to) a improved turf war mode a chance, while also giving the other modes a chance. I'm definitely interested in TowerD, Splatzones, and Rainforest.

If nothings done about Turf Wars, oh well. Just at least let me play with friends, not just ranked. I'm still going to play Splatoon regardless. I'm addicted.
 

Mr.HawK

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I just want to play Turf Wars. Not what you want to play. Some people don't want to 'mess' (improve) with turf wars yet complain about it. I'm alright with playing it like CS:GO, but I'd also like to play it as Splatoon, it's own thing. Let it be itself. Regardless, I think we should try before we buy. We should give (if we ever have the chance to) a improved turf war mode a chance, while also giving the other modes a chance. I'm definitely interested in TowerD, Splatzones, and Rainforest.

If nothings done about Turf Wars, oh well. Just at least let me play with friends, not just ranked. I'm still going to play Splatoon regardless. I'm addicted.
nothing is stopping you dude. also rainmaker not rainforest. and besides none of these people want to see turf evolve so its best that we try it out in tournament and then when the salt settles we dump it in a back alley like the rest of them want
 

Drez

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I'm willing to try and if it doesn't work, it doesn't work.
 

River09

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Frankly I think the only thing that hinders Turf Wars competitively viability is the timer. If it had a similar way of timing like Splat Zones—that the timer goes down on the team in control and if it hits 0/is lower than the opposing team's timer by the end of the set time (3 minutes in Turf War) they win—I think it would be fine competitively.
 

missingno

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Turf wars develops throughout the match. It's not only the final 30 seconds that count. And I know that it seems logical and true that it's only the final 30 seconds that count, but it's kind of a mental trick that makes us feel that way about a lot of similar things in life.

You can only do so much in the last 30 seconds, and it's alright that it's possible for a comeback to happen in that time - but that doesn't mean the rest of the 2:30 is irrelevant. For many, many reasons observable in many other competitive games & sports.

It's like a basketball game - they almost always come down to the wire, but that's what people love about it. The first 3 quarters are about setting up a lead if possible, gaining momentum, learning the opposing team, and so forth - a lot of counterplay and control happening.
While the first 2:30 may not quite be 100% meaningless, they do mean a lot less than the remaining 30 seconds do. You can try to establish a lead and hold onto it, but it's very common for even a completely dominated map to be wiped out in an instant. The lead means almost nothing - not completely nothing, but almost.

To follow your basketball analogy, it'd be as if points scored in the last quarter were suddenly worth 10x as much. Yeah, coming into the last quarter with a lead does help your chances a little bit, but not by all that much. 9 games out of 10 the final quarter will be all that mattered regardless of how the match started.

The fact that your actions for most of the match mean so much less than that one final moment does just isn't good design in my opinion. I much prefer how the other modes value the entire match equally (well, there is a little rubberbanding on Splat Zones, but not as much, and either way I'm a bigger Tower Control fan really).
 

Power

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I see this argument a lot from many people; is Splat Zones and Tower Control not the same thing? In any mode, either team can make a lucky comeback at any point in the match. Skill's involved in all the modes.
.

That is true, but the odds of a comeback are less likely if the team has been dominating in splatzones and tower compared to turf. I don't want to rehash arguments made so many times in the thread (maybe I shouldn't have posted) , I am in favor for having all modes be played. I am just waiting to see how turf and the other modes shape up after private lobbies and tournaments. Only until than, is when we can make a decision on what to ban. As of right now, it just seems that Turf does not stack up compared to the other modes because of its design.

The ink or sink tourney (with all game modes) will provide some evidence on what does and does not work for competitive play. I am on the side that says turf is very likely not suitable for competitive play
 
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TheRapture

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Looks like private games will have the option to select whichever mode and map you please, not having to abide by the current rotation of matchmaking.

As far as I'm concerned, that gives us a ton of options by mixing gametypes and maps. All the maps and modes have potential to be used in tournament and, personally, the more stages and modes used the better.
 

Cobbs

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While the first 2:30 may not quite be 100% meaningless, they do mean a lot less than the remaining 30 seconds do. You can try to establish a lead and hold onto it, but it's very common for even a completely dominated map to be wiped out in an instant. The lead means almost nothing - not completely nothing, but almost.

To follow your basketball analogy, it'd be as if points scored in the last quarter were suddenly worth 10x as much. Yeah, coming into the last quarter with a lead does help your chances a little bit, but not by all that much. 9 games out of 10 the final quarter will be all that mattered regardless of how the match started.

The fact that your actions for most of the match mean so much less than that one final moment does just isn't good design in my opinion. I much prefer how the other modes value the entire match equally (well, there is a little rubberbanding on Splat Zones, but not as much, and either way I'm a bigger Tower Control fan really).
There's a lot going on. Not yet because we're focused on the last 30 seconds, but the first 2:30 is about denying the other team a great final 30 seconds. And if inkstrike really is a huge problem, it can have a range limit or something else.
But a lot of competitive games work like this, and they're actually way more exciting than on-rails objective games. People are just wanting Splatoon to fit the shape and pace of other competitive shooters. Which is understandable, just a bit limited. But I am understanding and will let Splatoon just be another competitive simple 1-objective shooter if that's what people are more excited about.

The fact that your actions for most of the match mean so much less than that one final moment does just isn't good design in my opinion. I much prefer how the other modes value the entire match equally (well, there is a little rubberbanding on Splat Zones, but not as much, and either way I'm a bigger Tower Control fan really).
Just how like the only move that matters in chess is the final move. Or the last push is all that matters in MOBAs. Turf Wars is a sandbox gamemode, and it's going to promote that kind of open-ended emergent competitive scene. This is observable in countless competitive sports, games, and videogames.

As a commentator, I really value Smash's open-endedness, as well as other open-ended emergent competitive games (StarCraft, MOBAs, etc), and they'd be lesser experiences with 1 focused objective. Less to commentate, less to be surprised about, less to observe regarding counterplay, and so forth.

If competitive Splatoon becomes "they play the modes that emulates TF2 and normal 1-objective shooters", then the amount of competitive meat, variance, and allure is reduced the same way it would for MOBAs and Starcraft. Simplify or open up, it's our choice.

So - if all we're willing to internalize here is which modes feels most like a contemporary solo-objective shooter, then TC and Splatzones are the answer. That's the limit of the scope this discussion has here, and is therefore the main takeaway people are getting (hence low amounts of discussion). If that's what Squidboards is going to represent in the community, then maybe it won't be what Smashboards has been for the smash community - the center of 'own what makes your game unique' and 'don't stress about impressing or copying contemporary fighting games'.
 
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Sitri

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Frankly I think the only thing that hinders Turf Wars competitively viability is the timer. If it had a similar way of timing like Splat Zones—that the timer goes down on the team in control and if it hits 0/is lower than the opposing team's timer by the end of the set time (3 minutes in Turf War) they win—I think it would be fine competitively.
What would make that different from Splat Zones?
 

Vyvuto

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I can't think of any better way to halt a metagame's progress than to never play more than one game mode. Splat Zones is the simplest gametype from a strategic perspective, because it's both the simplest objective and the most straightforward to win (take point, set up, hold point, as compared to towers, where you need to work with and account for a lot more variables). This is not a bad thing. It just means that it's the gametype that everyone is going to be most comfortable with, since we learned ranked with it and have plenty of experience with it.

If you enforce zones only in competitive, you force the metagame to develop around lightning pushes (where you wipe the enemy team as quickly as possible) and defensive setups (where you try to get into safe positions and block the other team's fast push). The team with the best defence wins, because zooka is so strong that it's almost certainly going to work at some point.

Hopefully you see the problem already, but if not, I'll elaborate further.

Now examine tower control. Instead of being all about single, all-in pushes into defensive setups, TC is about protracted, standoff pushes at multiple areas of the map, with a forced positioning disadvantage and protecting against waves of defenders.

The problem with limiting gametypes, especially this early on, is that you are gambling on your understanding of the gametype being correct, and for a gametype like towers (which is relatively new and very poor for non-organised play) or rainmaker (which isn't even out yet), I don't believe this is actually possible.

Naturally, I've been arguing against turf war for months now, and this might seem like a contradiction. Turf is not like the other modes in that it's timed, and the only thing that matters is how the map lies at the end of the game. I believe this is a fundamental problem, but I also believe that playing competitive turf is the only way to demonstrate this gametype's problems. I would prefer turf to be out of the rotation as soon as possible, but I also want people to acknowledge that it's bad instead of constantly having that question mark over their heads.

Now, returning to my original point.

Multiple gametypes require mastery of the game, and enforcing single gametype means that a team can win a tournament without being the best at the game.

"but items/coins/bonus in melee!" No. Stop comparing to melee, it's a fourteen-year-old party game made competitive by sheer fluke and popularity, whereas Splatoon is new, has much less leeway for people to make idiotic decisions about its competitive future, and is at least designed around the idea that it will be played competitively. Items add needless randomness and break the game in a way that is not ideal. Other gametypes in Splatoon require that teams be good at more than just using zooka, getting four kills, and then throwing down splash walls and putting chargers on choke points for 50 seconds. If anything, zones is looking to be one of the shallower gametypes, at least as far as team compositions go.

Even if the comparison were valid, items and coins were both accepted gametypes in the very early days of melee and were demonstrated to be trash. The community, splintered though it was, did experiment with these gametypes and determined them to be bad. Likewise, the other various gametypes in CS:GO were experimented with in the CS1.6 days until demolition was decided upon. CTF and Deathmatch are both still played in Quake 4v4. Halo actively runs at least five gametypes (Team Slayer, Oddball, KOTH, Neutral Bomb, CTF). Competitive TF2 runs KOTH and CP, only now beginning to phase KOTH out of the rotation. At no point did people say "well I played this one time and didn't like it, we should ban it".

Maybe, eventually, we can start to discuss removing modes from competitive play. But we need to know how they are played before we can do that. I've seen at least two games ruined by communities that didn't know a ****ing thing about the game they played and refused to play with rules that were not what they were used to, and restricting competitive to Zones this early on would almost certainly make the trifecta.
You do make a good point regarding Splat Zones and Tower Control. My only gripes are the balance issues (where rollers and chargand the glitchy tower, as I've said earlier. Maybe things are different at A+ regarding balance, is this the case?

Regarding "mastery of the game", what really defines "mastery of the game"? Technically, you could say that to be a complete master at Splatoon, you'd need to be the best with every weapon, on every map, with all gear, on any gamemode. Saying that being good at all gamemodes is the only thing that facilitates mastery of the game seems like an arbitrary distinction.

You also made a good point about letting the meta develop. I'm just worried that in the game's infancy, when the community really needs to prove the game as an esport, making the wrong choice would doom us to the hell where Mario Kart and other games find themselves. I see that you're worried about it too, though, and hopefully with the new patch, we'll be able to see which gamemodes are competitively viable and which are not. I'm still against multiple gamemodes, but you have changed my view a bit.
 

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You do make a good point regarding Splat Zones and Tower Control. My only gripes are the balance issues (where rollers and chargand the glitchy tower, as I've said earlier. Maybe things are different at A+ regarding balance, is this the case?

Regarding "mastery of the game", what really defines "mastery of the game"? Technically, you could say that to be a complete master at Splatoon, you'd need to be the best with every weapon, on every map, with all gear, on any gamemode. Saying that being good at all gamemodes is the only thing that facilitates mastery of the game seems like an arbitrary distinction.

You also made a good point about letting the meta develop. I'm just worried that in the game's infancy, when the community really needs to prove the game as an esport, making the wrong choice would doom us to the hell where Mario Kart and other games find themselves. I see that you're worried about it too, though, and hopefully with the new patch, we'll be able to see which gamemodes are competitively viable and which are not. I'm still against multiple gamemodes, but you have changed my view a bit.
Being an esport isn't something that needs to be rushed, it has to happen naturally. Don't try to force Splatoon to be something it potentially isn't, and just let the game grow a little.
 

Cobbs

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Regarding "mastery of the game", what really defines "mastery of the game"? Technically, you could say that to be a complete master at Splatoon, you'd need to be the best with every weapon, on every map, with all gear, on any gamemode. Saying that being good at all gamemodes is the only thing that facilitates mastery of the game seems like an arbitrary distinction.
What you have to keep in mind is that many people on the competitive forums are trying to see which modes make the game act most like a typical competitive shooter, rather than which brings out the best organized-play potential of Splatoon. Remember to sense where people's interests lie when they make posts.

Being an esport isn't something that needs to be rushed, it has to happen naturally. Don't try to force Splatoon to be something it potentially isn't, and just let the game grow a little.
Growth requires people willing to let a metagame develop - which means developing counterplay and further counterplay. Turf Wars is an 'open' gamemode, and that scares people because things seem broken. Just as they do in LoL and strat games like Starcraft early in their respective metas and whenever an update happens. That's the nature of sandbox competitive games.

There's comfort in turning Splatoon into a purely single-objective experience, because it's what a lot of people are comfortable with and it's also the most obvious decision to make, requiring less conceptual thought about what Splatoon 'is' on its own, rather than as part of the shooter genre.
 

Snowboar

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League of Legends "is" Summoner's Rift because Summoner's Rift is what the game was designed and balanced around, as stated by Riot themselves and further implied by the fact that their self-run tournaments are entirely on that map. The key difference is that while people mentally connect Splatoon with Turf, the developers have indicated that the ranked modes are for competitive play, which is further reinforced by the fact that ranked gametypes do not include Turf.
These are two entirely different things. Let's wait for Nintendo to state what they think about their game instead of making assumptions. Like I stated before, just because turf war doesn't have the label "Ranked" on it, doesn't mean the developers didn't mean it for competitive play.
 

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