Why Competitive Splatoon should use all Game Modes instead of one

[veovis]

My point is turf IS infact a reflection of he whole game. Unless you guys are saying you could sit at spawn twiddling thumbs the whole match until the last minute, be spawned camped by the dominating team and still win considerably more times than not. That is the only way your argument can be valid and that is just not the case.

I just explained why it was different from the ranked modes and you completely ignored it.

 

[Kaliafornia]

I just explained why it was different from the ranked modes and you completely ignored it.

The discussion isn't and has never been if Turf is the exact same as SZ or TC. You explained how the whole game matters in ranked, that's great. Except for the fact that your connotation is because Turf doesn't work the same way, the whole game doesn't matter. I responded by refuting your assertion, and saying the whole game does matter in Turf because there is no way you could not do anything for the entire game and expect to win at the end with any consistency.

Please keep up, thanks. :)

 

[Benjamin Hellcat]

Tell you what. Since only the last 30 seconds matter, as has been stated over and over again ad naseum, then just make the matches 30 seconds long.

Obviously this is a snarky sarcastic response. However, the reason this would not work the same way is precisely the reason why a last 30 seconds push is a valid win condition. The dominant team does not always become that in the first 30 seconds, the same way that the dominant team does not lose in the last 30. It takes the whole game to get to that point.

A win is a win however you get it.

 

[veovis]

The discussion isn't and has never been if Turf is the exact same as SZ or TC. You explained how the whole game matters in ranked, that's great. Except for the fact that your connotation is because Turf doesn't work the same way, the whole game doesn't matter. I responded by refuting your assertion, and saying the whole game does matter in Turf because there is no way you could not do anything for the entire game and expect to win at the end with any consistency.

Please keep up, thanks. :)

And my point is that the whole game matters significantly less than in Turf War. Whether or not you think the first 3/4's of the game is pointless (I'll admit, it's not entirely pointless, it helps build your special and makes the ending push easier if you have more Turf), the reality is that the last 1/4th is the most influential point by an absolutely massive margin. To even deny this would be ridiculous. This gives the impression that the rest of the game is filler leading up to the moment of truth. In the ranked modes, every second matters just as much as the last, which makes it a lot more tense and interesting to play.

Also, it'd be pretty sweet if we could have this discussion without resorting to embarrassing passive-aggressive digs.

 

[Benjamin Hellcat]

Also... a quick read through of "Playing to Win" by David Sirlin may help to understand. It looks to me that we are either arguing different points with each other or perceiving the game differently.

The idea that the better team lost is and will always be false, because it doesn't matter. The idea that the team entirely made up of scrubs got lucky on a technicality and pure luck is extremely far fetched.

A win is a win.

It is pure opinion that the other team was simply sitting on their laurels until that last 30 seconds. This flawed perception is being made by a player trying to come to grips with why they lost based on an inflated self image of them self or their team.

A whole is always made if it's parts.

As a note, I only occasionally play Turf Wars when i need a break from ranked. It's not as bad as is being exaggerated here. Chill.

 

[Kaliafornia]

And my point is that the whole game matters significantly less than in Turf War. Whether or not you think the first 3/4's of the game is pointless (I'll admit, it's not entirely pointless, it helps build your special and makes the ending push easier if you have more Turf), the reality is that the last 1/4th is the most influential point by an absolutely massive margin. To even deny this would be ridiculous. This gives the impression that the rest of the game is filler leading up to the moment of truth. In the ranked modes, every second matters just as much as the last, which makes it a lot more tense and interesting to play.

Also, it'd be pretty sweet if we could have this discussion without resorting to embarrassing passive-aggressive digs.

Sorry but I disagree, I still think everything matters in turf, especially since you cannot knockout. If you can knockout then that's game, who cares how you would have played for the rest of it? Or if the other team finally realized your weakness enough to exploit it and win themselves. If you can't knockout or knockout isn't an option then literally everything you do build up to the final moments in the game. So yes the final moment matters but that is solely based on how you played the game up until that point. Whether that is due to the game timer or OT. There is still a chance of the non dominate team for the majority of the game coming back in any mode where knockout doesn't happen or isn't an option.

If your main beef with Turf is that you can't knockout or there isn't some handicap/buffer then that's one thing. However that doesn't mean that your game play for the majority of the match is irrelevant or it isn't "competitive" because turnover is punished more at the end (which is the same for all non knockouts) or that being dominate and being the winning team is always one in the same across the other modes. In fact Turf is more competitive because the skill to hold and defend is tested even more if you are the dominate team.

But it'd also be pretty sweet if I could have this discussion without repeating the same thing 50 times, with a handful of different people saying the same thing I keep exposing as false, then telling me I am wrong because I didn't address a point that I clearly did many times. So sorry if my frustration is showing, I have nothing against you personally.

Also... a quick read through of "Playing to Win" by David Sirlin may help to understand. It looks to me that we are either arguing different points with each other or perceiving the game differently.

The idea that the better team lost is and will always be false, because it doesn't matter. The idea that the team entirely made up of scrubs got lucky on a technicality and pure luck is extremely far fetched.

A win is a win.

It is pure opinion that the other team was simply sitting on their laurels until that last 30 seconds. This flawed perception is being made by a player trying to come to grips with why they lost based on an inflated self image of them self or their team.

A whole is always made if it's parts.

As a note, I only occasionally play Turf Wars when i need a break from ranked. It's not as bad as is being exaggerated here. Chill.

This. So much this. Thank you.

 

[Agosta44]

Sorry but I disagree, I still think everything matters in turf, especially since you cannot knockout. If you can knockout then that's game, who cares how you would have played for the rest of it? Or if the other team finally realized your weakness enough to exploit it and win themselves. If you can't knockout or knockout isn't an option then literally everything you do build up to the final moments in the game. So yes the final moment matters but that is solely based on how you played the game up until that point. Whether that is due to the game timer or OT. There is still a chance of the non dominate team for the majority of the game coming back in any mode where knockout doesn't happen or isn't an option.

If your main beef with Turf is that you can't knockout or there isn't some handicap/buffer then that's one thing. However that doesn't mean that your game play for the majority of the match is irrelevant or it isn't "competitive" because turnover is punished more at the end (which is the same for all non knockouts) or that being dominate and being the winning team is always one in the same across the other modes. In fact Turf is more competitive because the skill to hold and defend is tested even more if you are the dominate team.

But it'd also be pretty sweet if I could have this discussion without repeating the same thing 50 times, with a handful of different people saying the same thing I keep exposing as false, then telling me I am wrong because I didn't address a point that I clearly did many times. So sorry if my frustration is showing, I have nothing against you personally.



This. So much this. Thank you.

Turf is not more competitive in any way LOL. This is completely false. N5 can host a Turf War tourney. Don't try and force a mode onto everyone else because you like it. Luck based wins can stay in Mario Kart :)

 

[Inyo]

Turf is not more competitive in any way LOL. This is completely false. N5 can host a Turf War tourney. Don't try and force a mode onto everyone else because you like it. Luck based wins can stay in Mario Kart :)

Where does luck play into Turf War as we are going to play it in tournament settings? You know everything ahead of time except what weapons the other team are going to use. The other team will not randomly get a power from the RNG that will kill your whole team at the very end. The specials have to be earned, and you can stop them from being earned. Randomness isn't really a factor here.

 

[Kaliafornia]

Turf is not more competitive in any way LOL. This is completely false. N5 can host a Turf War tourney. Don't try and force a mode onto everyone else because you like it. Luck based wins can stay in Mario Kart :)

This isn't about hosting a Turf war tourney, N5, nor MK so you can crawl back into irrelevancy now and leave old beef in the past. Old beef that I wasn't even around for nor give 2 craps about mind you, dude you don't even know me LOL! I know you are obsessed and 5 types of pressed over N5 and Eric but please leave me out of it.

Real talk, have whatever game mode you want in tourneys. As I've said plenty of times I don't even really like Turf, however, I will be here calling out inaccuracies and nonsense as I see fit from those trying to assert their own biases as facts. End of story. #butyoutriedit

 

[Agosta44]

Where does luck play into Turf War as we are going to play it in tournament settings? You know everything ahead of time except what weapons the other team are going to use. The other team will not randomly get a power from the RNG that will kill your whole team at the very end. The specials have to be earned, and you can stop them from being earned. Randomness isn't really a factor here.

If you die in the closing seconds of turf war you lose. Unless you set up a spawn camp and keep them from making any type of progress all game you're 1 death away from a loss and are forced to play like that. No other mode has a 3 minute timer that punishes you for the closing seconds of a game. You have a maximum of 5 minutes in all other modes to put up a fight, and if you lose before that bell or after 5 minutes then that's on you. Can you lose in Overtime? Yes, but that's your teams fault and 100% deserve it. You let 1 dynamo live on Turf and surprise, you lose!

This isn't about hosting a Turf war tourney, N5, nor MK so you can crawl back into irrelevancy now and leave old beef in the past. Old beef that I wasn't even around for nor give 2 craps about mind you, dude you don't even know me LOL! I know you are obsessed and 5 types of pressed over N5 and Eric but please leave me out of it.

Real talk, have whatever game mode you want in tourneys. As I've said plenty of times I don't even really like Turf, however, I will be here calling out inaccuracies and nonsense as I see fit from those trying to assert their own biases as facts. End of story. #butyoutriedit

Old beef? You mean how i was called cancer last week before 6-0ing N5 and how they have their members set to invisible so I can't join them? You can play devil's advocate all you like; that's great, but that does not make anything you say fact or make the mode more viable. You could have pyro come in here and write a 6 page editorial about Turf War and how it's the most competitive mode and that won't make it true.

 

[Kaliafornia]

Old beef? You mean how i was called cancer last week before 6-0ing N5 and how they have their members set to invisible so I can't join them? You can play devil's advocate all you like; that's great, but that does not make anything you say fact or make the mode more viable. You could have pyro come in here and write a 6 page editorial about Turf War and how it's the most competitive mode and that won't make it true.

Yeah, old beef. Clearly your mutual dislike with certain members goes back to way before Splatoon. Like I said, I don't know you, you don't know me, nor every single member of N5 to claim we are avoiding you (lulz were had over that claim). Furthermore it has no relevance, like your posts in general, to the current discussion. If certain members take your clearly charming attitude as cancer and want nothing to do with you, who can blame them? All I can say is thus far with our current interactions right now I would agree.

You are disrupting the thread now. I would say take it to PM but apparently I am your newest N5 obsession and I want to end the insanity now so please don't.

 

[Agosta44]

Yeah, old beef. Clearly your mutual dislike with certain members goes back to way before Splatoon. Like I said, I don't know you, you don't know me, nor every single member of N5 to claim we are avoiding you (lulz were had over that claim). Furthermore it has no relevance, like your posts in general, to the current discussion. If certain members take your clearly charming attitude as cancer and want nothing to do with you, who can blame them? All I can say is thus far with our current interactions right now I would agree.

Cute, you've learned well on how to twist language.

You can keep up with the passive aggressive insulting all you'd like and claim your opinions are fact, but it doesn't make them so. People have already decided on what camp they're in with Turf War so this thread has no more relevance.

 

[Kaliafornia]

Who is avoiding you other than people you clearly aren't friends with and who don't like you? Who actually wants to play with you from N5 but "can't"? Let me know. I'll wait.

You chose to roll up in this thread and try to talk down and call me out on your personal beefs with my friends that I have never been a part of, so forgive me for stooping down to your level.

I keep on saying I don't care. People can think what they want and people will regardless. The point of this thread is discussion and discussion to people who want to participate always has relevance. You don't think this thread is relevant? Then why are you here? Oh, that's right N5 Obsessed and Pressed. Carry on then but this is the last response you will get from me on it.

 

[Inyo]

If you die in the closing seconds of turf war you lose. Unless you set up a spawn camp and keep them from making any type of progress all game you're 1 death away from a loss and are forced to play like that. No other mode has a 3 minute timer that punishes you for the closing seconds of a game. You have a maximum of 5 minutes in all other modes to put up a fight, and if you lose before that bell or after 5 minutes then that's on you. Can you lose in Overtime? Yes, but that's your teams fault and 100% deserve it. You let 1 dynamo live on Turf and surprise, you lose!

.

Easy enough to fix: Don't get killed in the last few seconds. That's not really luck, it's the other player's skill vs. yours, which sounds fairly competitive to me.

 

[Agosta44]

Easy enough to fix: Don't get killed in the last few seconds. That's not really luck, it's the other player's skill vs. yours, which sounds fairly competitive to me.

Inkzooka = skill?

??

 

[Inyo]

Inkzooka = skill?

??

They have to aim it, don'tchaknow. And they have to earn it. If you keep killing them, they will never spread enough ink to get it. I know it's frustrating and seems like "bad luck", but it really isn't.

 

[MrL1193]

Honestly, I'm not even sure why I'm bothering to type this, seeing how this thread has devolved into a personal attacks, but I'll throw my two cents in anyway.

First of all, I don't think that the first two and a half minutes of Turf War are completely meaningless. If your team controls 70% of the map going into the last 30 seconds, you do have an advantage. The point of contention lies in how much of an advantage you're allowed to hold.

In a race, if you've already lapped the other racers and you continue to drive faster than they do, you continue to get further and further ahead. In a basketball game, if your team is already leading by 100 points halfway through and you continue to outplay the opposing team, you gain even more points on the opposing team. There's no limit to how far ahead you can get. That, however, is not the case in Splatoon's Turf Wars. If your team wins the opening skirmish in the center, wipes out the other team, and gets a spawn camp going just 1 minute in, you're already as far ahead as you can get. Regardless of how much you outplay the other team at this point, the most you can do is to merely maintain the advantage you already have. And due to the nature of the game, which allows quick swings one way or the other, that maximum advantage that you can gain is not enough to assure victory.

The other major issue here is the quantity of gameplay that goes into determining the result. As a said before, I don't think the first two and a half minutes of Turf War are meaningless, but I do think that they are worth less than the last 30 seconds. This has the effect of making it so that the losing team always has a chance to make a comeback, regardless of how badly they played earlier. And while this structure of making everything come down to the final play makes for good TV, it goes against the competitive goal of determining the best player overall. Competitive tournaments never determine everything with one short match because it is entirely possible for less skilled players to win out short term. It is far less likely that less skilled players will prevail in the long run, which is why longer matches and sets of matches are preferred. In theory, you could achieve a similar effect in Turf Wars by playing many matches of Turf Wars instead of just a few...but wouldn't it be easier to just use one of the other modes, which rewards good play more evenly throughout the entire match?

 

[Ryuji]

When is win condition based on anything else but ultimately the timer in any Splatoon game mode for evenly matched teams who run out the clock?

Not to mention the majorities' concern is fast recovery in Turf war for the last 30 seconds yet acknowledge this only happens in evenly matched teams.... and? It's not any different for TC or SZ in the last 30 secs for evenly matched teams. When you are evenly matched in any game mode those last seconds matter regardless even despite how easy you may feel it is to loose/regain control. Besides TC easily trumps Turf as the mode where anything can happen in the last seconds for even teams.

A triple kill/quad kill in the middle of a match in Turf doesn't mean more or less to the match's result than it does in SZ or TC, especially in competitive. Also the fact that if we are talking about skilled competitive players there is no reason why someone should be getting triple or quad kills in Turf from a inkzooka, etc. as players are a lot more spread out all over the map.

Placing these extra rule sets on Turf are unnecessary and just make the mode convoluted to focus on kills than the actual objective.

The real issue I see is most people who play are shooter fans and just want to competitively play modes where confrontation is unavoidable. That's totally fine, [even though you can easily get best K/D ratio out of all players and still lose in a ranked match] and I would agree on that point. However all the other reasons I've been seeing on why not to include Turf or to modify it are just faulty.

I personally think D3RK's suggestion was a nice idea. If you and everyone else arguing in favour of incorporating TW into competitive play would make some incentive to entice people to play it competitively you need to be more open to ideas like those. As it is TW is meaningless and very uninteresting from a competitive standpoint. Adding win conditions would certainly add more value to it. The timer alone isn't going to cut it. The entire mode needs to be more centralized and focused. At least some objective rather than the rather dull task of spreading ink aimlessly with both teams at random points on the map.

 

[Kaliafornia]

I personally think D3RK's suggestion was a nice idea. If you and everyone else arguing in favour of incorporating TW into competitive play would make some incentive to entice people to play it competitively you need to be more open to ideas like those. As it is TW is meaningless and very uninteresting from a competitive standpoint. Adding win conditions would certainly add more value to it. The timer alone isn't going to cut it. The entire mode needs to be more centralized and focused. At least some objective rather than the rather dull task of spreading ink aimlessly with both teams at random points on the map.

For the nth time, I'm not arguing for Turf to be apart of competitive. There are valid reasons why it shouldn't be, I'm just not going to agree with faulty reasons of why it shouldn't be.

Your reasoning that Turf needs to be as centralized and goal focused as other modes is a valid point. Turf has an objective, clearly, but it's understandable shooter fans would like more tangible objectives with knockout options. As well as people not liking it because it doesn't have a buffer/handicap win condition [which I think is a contradiction to "competition" but I will let you have it]. All valid.

Reasons of the entire game not mattering, it not being competitive, variability in scoring, dominating team should = winning team, etc. isn't valid for reasons I continue to explain. I agree with you that if people want to entice more people to play turf then maybe turf should compromise some things or change to suit SZ or TC more as that's where people's biases land. That's fine, however I'm not trying to get people to change their minds or compromise. I'm just participating in discussion on why certain opinions of Turf are faulty.

 

[Box]

I'm talking fundamentally the best team will win any given individual match, not how you choose to run a tournament. I agree people play multiple games as there is less variance or chance in the better team loosing overall best out of 5, etc games. However that would be true regardless if Turf was chosen as a playable mode or not. The fact people play multiple games in a tournament doesn't mean turf is a game of luck and not skill. Your logic doesn't add up there.

I really don't know where people get the "Turf only matters at the end of the game" logic. What you are doing for the entire game matters.You aren't dominating or the clear better team if the other team can make that big of a push to actually dominate you at the end of the game. The dominating and winning are not one in the same. You could dominate the whole game, throw, and end up losing. If it's a close game all match you aren't clearly dominating or the better team.

Also I never said Turf and ranked were scored the same way (even TC and SZ are scored differently) however I said all modes are fundamentally set up so if your team is truly dominating the game you will win.

You're mixing in the arguments of other people in order to call my post illogical.