Banning Weapons or Maps?

[RespawningJesus]

I get all of that, but there are other factors at play here.

There's a certain threshold, for example, in which it doesn't really matter how equal teams are in skill. If the design of the map heavily favors spawn-campers, at times it can be almost impossible to break a lock.

And we want an accessible game. We don't want it to be overly easy to hold teams down at spawn. Right now, Walleye is built to really facilitate spawn camping at all levels of play.

Considering how we have never really seen higher levels of play, we cannot say for certain whether or not spawn camping will be a problem. Not only that, but we will have weapons that could potentially break a spawn trap fairly easy.

In public matches, spawn trapping is going to happen no matter what, usually when there is a large difference in skill between teams. Hell, even in higher levels of play this could happen; one team might just be completely superior to the other. Either way, the better team wins, moves on to the next round. Now, if teams are evenly matched are able to spawn camp each other, then it becomes a problem.

 

[Pusha]

I wonder if the potential spawn-camping problems with Walleye would merit banning the stage...

I think walleye should not be used in competitive, but not because of spawn issues (well not just because of spawn issues). The map is just too small and too simple. There's really only one lane, it's very narrow and there isn't much to control other than the middle of the map. The map design doesn't really lend well to dynamic, competitive play, and yes it's too easy to push into a team's spawn. Compared to maps like blackbelly or saltspray, it is very 1-dimensional.

 

[missingno]

Why do you find Walleye spawn such a problem in comparison to say Blackbelly Skatepark?

Well most of us haven't played Blackbelly Skatepark yet, we're just talking about the stage we do know. But if you really want my opinion on a stage I've never played, at least it doesn't look to me like it has the kind of killer choke points that make Walleye so bad.

This article explains the issue pretty well, Walleye Warehouse is way too prone to slippery slopes. As soon as you lock down the forward choke points, you pretty much win. Full blown spawn camping actually isn't the right strategy though, you just want to stay on the choke points, as long as you don't overextend they can't make it through and you still have >50%. Basically the game can already be over within the first minute, leaving a team in a lame duck situation as they sit there waiting for the timer to put them out of their misery. That's bad design.

 

[Agosta44]

Well most of us haven't played Blackbelly Skatepark yet, we're just talking about the stage we do know. But if you really want my opinion on a stage I've never played, at least it doesn't look to me like it has the kind of killer choke points that make Walleye so bad.

This article explains the issue pretty well, Walleye Warehouse is way too prone to slippery slopes. As soon as you lock down the forward choke points, you pretty much win. Full blown spawn camping actually isn't the right strategy though, you just want to stay on the choke points, as long as you don't overextend they can't make it through and you still have >50%. Basically the game can already be over within the first minute, leaving a team in a lame duck situation as they sit there waiting for the timer to put them out of their misery. That's bad design.

Basically any special or combinations of specials or longer ranged weapons will free you from any situation on Walleye. During the demo I had a couple people attempt to camp me and I would just Wail/grenade/throw ink etc and get out no problem.

 

[Mayday]

If a team in a match lets themselves get spawncamped, then they deserve to lose.

I disagree. Having 2+ down at one single point could completely cost you the map. A map that limits the amount of key moments in a match is unfit for competitive play.

But we don't really know how effective it is considering we only played a tiny portion of the game. There could be equipment/weapons that make it easy to break spawn traps. Could also go the other way too. There could be loadouts that make it easier to camp spawn. We've also never played it in a team aspect. More coordination could also take it either way.

Just more things that need to be tested once the game comes out

 

[flc]

As soon as you lock down the forward choke points, you pretty much win.

I'm not sure I agree with this

how do you propose locking down these points? no matter what position you take, you can either be pushed out by the team grouping up and pushing or by the other team simply abusing the high ground advantage that they get. people seem to forget that there are three ways out of the main spawn area, one of which is a one-way drop down with height advantage over the entire lower spawn area, and the other is easy to push out of

also sirlin's article, though definitely correct in at least a fundamental sense, isn't appropriate for this context. you aren't losing resources for being behind. pubs just suck at co-ordinating a push out of spawn, and it's way easier for someone (or a group thereof) to screw up a spawn lock than it is for a team to push out on walleye (and probably the other maps too).

I disagree. Having 2+ down at one single point could completely cost you the map. A map that limits the amount of key moments in a match is unfit for competitive play.

what

ok let's just back up for a second here. you're told when you have a number disadvantage. if you're getting yourself killed when the other team has numbers on you, you're doing it wrong. and even then, for what you're saying to be true, that would require that whether or not you find yourself in this situation is determined by luck.

if we're looking at a map where losing one man in the mid fight guarantees you lose, then we can discuss bans. but holy hell people need to stop throwing that word around so lightly.

seriously it's not hard to hold some of these locations (right path out of walleye spawn?????), people just forget they exist lol

 

[missingno]

Obviously I'm not saying it's 100% impossible to overcome, just that it's hard to do so, perhaps too hard. The drop-down can be held - if you know that's the only 'safe' route they have, you can make it unsafe. Cutting off your opponents' options is a very big deal, you're in a position where you hold total control over what they can do. And when you know that they'll do, when you know the only thing they can do, you can easily counter it.

You are right that the meta is young, and it may turn out to be a non-issue after all. I'm certainly not calling for a definite ban this early, just illustrating a potential problem to show what type of map might be considered broken and bannable.

Regarding the Sirlin article, he merely used RTS resources to illustrate one example of slippery slope. That doesn't mean it's not a slippery slope if resources aren't involved. A slippery slope just describes any scenario in which being behind can put you more behind and be very hard to escape, and/or one where you can say the game is already over halfway through. That can describe Walleye, where losing the center leads to losing the chokes, losing the chokes leads to being completely trapped, and it's hard to escape that trap once you're in it.

 

[flc]

Regarding the Sirlin article, he merely used RTS resources to illustrate one example of slippery slope. That doesn't mean it's not a slippery slope if resources aren't involved. A slippery slope just describes any scenario in which being behind can put you more behind and be very hard to escape, and/or one where you can say the game is already over halfway through. That can describe Walleye, where losing the center leads to losing the chokes, losing the chokes leads to being completely trapped, and it's hard to escape that trap once you're in it.

that's why I'm saying it's not accurate, though. losing mid -> losing chokes -> spawn trap is a natural game flow, and if one falls after the other it's more likely a case of outplaying than a case of slippery slope. the problem would arise if losing mid made you less able to contest the chokes (which it doesn't, you still have the initiative on flanking and the high ground advantage. also, attacking the left choke leaves you exposed to fire from above at two locations and attacking from the front will get you surrounded), which in turn makes you lose spawn control (which, again, it doesn't, because you have the high ground advantage).

I'm not saying it's impossible for a slippery slope to arise in this game, but it requires a map where a team's spawn is at a disadvantage, and walleye simply is not that map. though nintendo does seem to try its hardest to screw up every multiplayer game it makes, surely fps map design 101 is something they won't screw up

... right?

 

[Mayday]

I'm not sure I agree with this
what

ok let's just back up for a second here. you're told when you have a number disadvantage. if you're getting yourself killed when the other team has numbers on you, you're doing it wrong. and even then, for what you're saying to be true, that would require that whether or not you find yourself in this situation is determined by luck.

if we're looking at a map where losing one man in the mid fight guarantees you lose, then we can discuss bans. but holy hell people need to stop throwing that word around so lightly.

seriously it's not hard to hold some of these locations (right path out of walleye spawn?????), people just forget they exist lol

That's what we are going to find out. If there are 2 close to evenly matched teams, there will be points where both teams have numbers on the other. Worst case scenario is one down leads to immediate spawn trap and game over. You don't want the entire map to become whatever team gets the spawn trap first wins.

I'm not saying we ban it immediately. We don't know how hard it will be to accomplish or how easy it is to break out. We haven't seen top level team play yet so we don't know, but the potential of spawn traps becoming the entire meta of the map is there.

 

[Bottlecapn]

And what about those secondary perks? Those are the part that's a hellish RNG grind, which just isn't fair. The fairest solution is to unequip it all, don't even use the basic gear either.

They're weaker and much less important, and how are you planning on unequipping basic gear? I don't think Nintendo would like Inklings walking around naked...

Obviously I'm not saying it's 100% impossible to overcome, just that it's hard to do so, perhaps too hard... losing the chokes leads to being completely trapped, and it's hard to escape that trap once you're in it.

The thing is, it really isn't. I've been spawncamped a number of times in Walleye and all I did was spray ink on my initial high ground. With this alone, enemies are either A.) Forced to move back in order to not give away position, or B.) Shoot to re-ink territory, revealing their position and making them vulnerable. If it's the former, then I keep shooting. If it's the latter, I shoot them (or throw bombs), using my height advantage to stay safe and swim back if need be. And keep in mind the super jump. The only way you're not gonna be able to super jump is if your whole team dies, whether it be all at once or over the course of a few seconds, and if that happens you have a much easier time getting out of spawncamping.

Although I do admit spawncamping would be beyond annoying in Splat Zones. Still able to be overcome, but annoying.

 

[TheRapture]

All of this would be simply avoided if Walleye had a second spawn route lol

 

[Citrus]

Perhaps banning specific unfair strategies? I don't see any stages in general that need to be banned, but we'll have to see tomorrow.

 

[TheRapture]

Perhaps banning specific unfair strategies? I don't see any stages in general that need to be banned, but we'll have to see tomorrow.

Banning unfair strategies is always a difficult task. It's hard to establish a line in which a strategy becomes fair or unfair, or establishing where the line is of somebody nearly doing that strategy and actually committing to it. It's something that needs a lot more monitoring of the gameplay, which are resources likely nobody has.

 

[Citrus]

Banning unfair strategies is always a difficult task. It's hard to establish a line in which a strategy becomes fair or unfair, or establishing where the line is of somebody nearly doing that strategy and actually committing to it. It's something that needs a lot more monitoring of the gameplay, which are resources likely nobody has.

Yeah true
The only thing I can think of is camping unfairly

 

[TheRapture]

Yeah true
The only thing I can think of is camping unfairly

Camping isn't really considered an unfair strategy. Play to win! If the game allows camping to be a strong strategy, then players should take advantage.

Right now, Splatoon doesn't really encourage camping at all. Spawn camping is right now only really viable on Walleye and isn't really like normal camping.

 

[Citrus]

Camping isn't really considered an unfair strategy. Play to win! If the game allows camping to be a strong strategy, then players should take advantage.

Right now, Splatoon doesn't really encourage camping at all. Spawn camping is right now only really viable on Walleye and isn't really like normal camping.

Yeah spawning is kinda what I was getting at
Its not really a problem anyways, as its easy to stop
I'm just throwing ideas out there, lol

 

[InkDaze]

I don't thin anything will be banned, everything seems legit and ok till now

 

[missingno]

Yeah true
The only thing I can think of is camping unfairly

Oh boy, don't make me start quoting Sirlin at you.

The thing to be banned must be able to be “completely defined.” Imagine that in a fighting game, repeating a certain sequence of five moves over and over is the best tactic in the game. Further suppose that doing so is “taboo” and that players want to ban it. There is no concrete definition of exactly what must be banned. Can players do three repetitions of the five moves? What about two reps? What about one? What about repeating the first four moves and omitting the fifth? Is that okay? The game becomes a test of who is willing to play as closely as possible to the “taboo tactic” without breaking the (arbitrary) letter of the law defining the tactic.

Or in a first-person shooter game, consider the notion of banning “camping” (sitting in one place for too long). No friendly agreement between the players is necessary for the ban, which at least means it’s enforceable. The server can monitor the positions of players, and it knows exactly who breaks the rule and can hand out penalties accordingly. The ban is enforceable, but the problem is being able to completely define camping. If camping is defined as staying within one zone for 3 minutes, and if it really is the best tactic, then sitting in that zone for 2 minutes 59 seconds becomes the best tactic. It’s a slippery slope because there will always exist camping tactics arbitrarily close to the specific kind of camping that is banned.

 

[Pusha]

Oh boy, don't make me start quoting Sirlin at you.

I don't think he was suggesting to ban camping.

 

[FuncDetail]

Banning weapons or gears? I don't think so. I feel like someone who enters a tournament should have enough knowledge to come up with ways to counter what seems like "OP", unfair or whatever else is the problem. If even these players can't find a way, THEN we may have a problem. The game isn't even technically out yet so we will really know later down the line.

Maps? Only if it changes the goal of the game modes or the general strategy. It's not the case in the current maps but who knows if it will happen in the upcoming updates.