Making a hypothetical balance patch and screwing with some kits

[Terret]

All good. Definitely an interesting change. That said, thinking back, I really don't think S'Blast needs this. At 2.0 in its current state it genuinely seems okay. I'll still try it because it is interesting tho

Found some time to mess with it. It honestly feels unnecessary. It kinda feels useless and the risk for a three shot can lead to a huge problem. I know you said something about this making it a three shot instead of infinite shots, but at least with an infinite shot kill, you know how much you got. that being nothing. I really don't like this idea, especially for a main weapon that can only shoot once per second.

 

[Terret]

I am planning to nerf wall so I do think that adjusting this is fair. That said, I haven’t found where all the damage multipliers are. Got to figure that out

That said, a bomb hitting wall, unless the AOE hits something important when on contact actually tends to result in the worse trade for the bomb user.

 

[youre_a_squib_now]

I figured it out. You just add more lines.
View attachment 10900View attachment 10903
What do you think of this?
i just realized that these graphs take up the entire screen when viewed on a computer. sorry about that, here's a more helpfully cropped version

Now that I think about it, this was more of a "look, i figured it out" post; I didn't actually think too hard about which numbers I chose. I probably should have thought about that before asking what you thought about said numbers.

That said, here are some numbers I put slightly more thought into, and my reasoning. Actually, I'll start with the reasoning.

Having only .2 units where the damage is less than 50 kind of defeats the purpose of buffing the radius in the first place. The goal was to give it extra radius that did weaker damage to allow it to exert better long distance pressure and poke around corners. The numbers from before didn't accomplish this, but 2.75 units max radius should. I was worried at first about this being too close to rapid (it's closer to rapid's radius than it is to its original radius) but it's still way slower. As for the damage, 40 is probably good. I considered giving it 35 but the short range damage isn't getting a buff, and 40 will combo with it easier.

Found some time to mess with it. It honestly feels unnecessary. It kinda feels useless and the risk for a three shot can lead to a huge problem. I know you said something about this making it a three shot instead of infinite shots, but at least with an infinite shot kill, you know how much you got. that being nothing. I really don't like this idea, especially for a main weapon that can only shoot once per second.

In the training room, hitting targets with the tiny 1.8 or 2.0 blast radius isn't that hard, but in an actual match, it might as well not exist. The weapon would not be all that different if the long range mode didn't have an explosion at all. This might be an exaggeration, but not a large one. It does pretty much nothing, except occasionally two shotting if you get lucky.
Being a weapon that can only shoot once per second, having an entire shot accomplish literally nothing leaves you extremely vulnerable. If someone is rushing you down, by the time you have a second shot they're probably next to you already, meaning your large short range blast radius isn't helpful because you'll only get one more shot before you're dead. The advantage to this buff isn't that you gain the ability to three shot; that's almost never going to be relevant. It's that you gain the ability to damage opponents slightly and make your next shot much more threatening. In the situation from before, even if you only dealt 40 damage, it would now be very silly for them to rush you because you could almost guaranteed splat them with your gigantic short range hitbox. So not only did you survive, you stopped them from even trying to rush you because of how stupid it would be to attempt it, just by hitting them with 40 damage. The long range explosion shouldn't be strong by itself; that's what range blaster is for. Otherwise it would do 50. But giving it a way to more consistently do a smaller amount of damage makes it so you have to respect the weapon's space a whole lot more.

As for the two shot radius, 2.0 is fine. Being able to do 40 damage already significantly buffs the two shot, because it isn't too hard to do 60 with it, but it's not like we're really at risk of over-buffing this so it can stay at 2.0. (Edit: okay, maybe we are. This is a really big buff. But we can always nerf it later if we need to.)

The burst combos are actually fairly strong already in the base game. Mostly with the short range mode, but still pretty good with the long range mode. I'm back and forth on how strong they should be (or rather, what numbers would make them the strength I want them to be), but they do need to be stronger. I think somewhere between 1 and 1.25 for the max damage radius is good for this, but I'm not sure where.

Anyway, here are the numbers I ended up with:

 

[youre_a_squib_now]

That said, a bomb hitting wall, unless the AOE hits something important when on contact actually tends to result in the worse trade for the bomb user.

Maybe, but it still feels terrible to use a wall and then there's just a sub or three that can instantly delete half of its health

 

[youre_a_squib_now]

The same thing applies for s-blast. Having the option to 3-shot will always be better than not having that option. I do understand that it might be hard for players to tell how much they've damaged players, but you could say the same thing about most weapons. It will come with experience.

You could also think of it this way. It already has a worse clash/luna blaster indirect and worse range blaster direct, so i'm giving it a worse rapid blaster indirect as well.

My point is that any time it is a 3-shot with the buff, it would be an ∞-shot without the buff. You aren't losing frames because you wouldn't have been able to splat them before in the first place.

Found some time to mess with it. It honestly feels unnecessary. It kinda feels useless and the risk for a three shot can lead to a huge problem. I know you said something about this making it a three shot instead of infinite shots, but at least with an infinite shot kill, you know how much you got. that being nothing. I really don't like this idea, especially for a main weapon that can only shoot once per second.

I tricked myself into arguing something I didn't actually believe. You're completely right about how the ability to three shot isn't helpful, but that's not what makes this buff good. It's good because you can do 40 damage, and follow it up with 60 (or vice versa). i don't want to rewrite my whole post though so i'll just leave it there.

 

[OnePotWonder]

Hey guys, funny thing. In Chara’s latest video covering the best and worst weapons of S1, he goes over Rapid Pro’s damage and how it could be anywhere from a two- to four-shot splat, then states that the idea of variable shots to kill would be cool on the Clash Blaster.

We are thinking seven dimensions ahead of popular SplatTubers.

 

[youre_a_squib_now]

I can maybe figure out a way to change how the drop off scales to make it not uniform but I still really don’t like the idea of having it be one shot more for a weapon that frankly struggles miserably to get that indirect anyway, even with the radius increase. It may seem like it’s not a big deal but with how unreliable most blasters are, it’s a huge deal not knowing whether you’re getting a two shot or three shot for a weapon that slow

Found some time to mess with it. It honestly feels unnecessary. It kinda feels useless and the risk for a three shot can lead to a huge problem. I know you said something about this making it a three shot instead of infinite shots, but at least with an infinite shot kill, you know how much you got. that being nothing. I really don't like this idea, especially for a main weapon that can only shoot once per second.

I think I finally figured out how to explain why this won't be an issue, and why it isn't an issue for inkjet. This is going to sound dumb but give me a chance here.

I'll use range blaster as my example instead of s-blast since I don't want to have to worry about specifying versions.

For range blaster, if you've hit them once, you don't know if your next shot will kill or not, because you don't know if it'll hit. You can't know, until you either hit or not. This is the exact same situation as s-blast with the change. If you've hit them once, you don't know if your next shot will kill or not, because you don't know if it'll hit for enough damage. It's the same thing. (The same applies for inkjet as well but I won't type it out again.) The three shot doesn't really change much about this; you're not likely to get a third shot, so you essentially just missed. You'll never know ahead of time if your shots will do the damage you wanted it not, with most weapons in the game.

The slight difference with s-blast is that it doesn't tell you if you've hit 50 damage or not, because you get the sound effect either way. This isn't a problem either, for a few reasons. One, there's not really a difference between hitting for 49 and 51 damage; it just slightly changes how much damage you need to do with your second shot. So there's not actually a whole lot special about 50 damage specifically; it's just in general how much damage you should try to do per shot. Also, won't be hard to tell how close the opponent was to the explosion. Maybe not always, but often enough that it won't be a problem.
And inkjet does the same thing and it doesn't feel bad to use, so why would this?

There is one other thing worth mentioning here, which is that the short range mode (specifically) is one of the things that you should know ahead of time if it's going to hit or not. This wasn't an issue before, but giving the long range mode potential to only do 40 means that if you hit someone and they decide to rush you, you can't be as confident you'll hit them for enough damage. It's not a huge problem or anything, because effectively all it does is shorten the radius of your short range mode, but it should still be addressed. Increasing its 70 damage radius to 1.5 or even 2 units should help.

 

[Terret]

Hey guys, funny thing. In Chara’s latest video covering the best and worst weapons of S1, he goes over Rapid Pro’s damage and how it could be anywhere from a two- to four-shot splat, then states that the idea of variable shots to kill would be cool on the Clash Blaster.

We are thinking seven dimensions ahead of popular SplatTubers.

Yeah, I saw and I found it kinda funny a coincidence. I wouldn’t be opposed to putting it on clash tbh

 

[Terret]

I think I finally figured out how to explain why this won't be an issue, and why it isn't an issue for inkjet. This is going to sound dumb but give me a chance here.

I'll use range blaster as my example instead of s-blast since I don't want to have to worry about specifying versions.

For range blaster, if you've hit them once, you don't know if your next shot will kill or not, because you don't know if it'll hit. You can't know, until you either hit or not.

There’s a major difference here, and that’s the fact Range has a MUCH bigger AOE, so if you hit the first shot, unless your opponent can flee efficiently or fight back, you KNOW you will kill on the second. And it’s MUCH easier to tell how much you hit on something like Range rather than S’Blast. If you want to make this idea work, I’d say it’d have to be on a weapon with a big radius and something that has a need for it, which is why I actually like the idea on clash.

This is the exact same situation as s-blast with the change. If you've hit them once, you don't know if your next shot will kill or not, because you don't know if it'll hit for enough damage. It's the same thing. (The same applies for inkjet as well but I won't type it out again.) The three shot doesn't really change much about this; you're not likely to get a third shot, so you essentially just missed. You'll never know ahead of time if your shots will do the damage you wanted it not, with most weapons in the game.

The slight difference with s-blast is that it doesn't tell you if you've hit 50 damage or not, because you get the sound effect either way. This isn't a problem either, for a few reasons. One, there's not really a difference between hitting for 49 and 51 damage; it just slightly changes how much damage you need to do with your second shot. So there's not actually a whole lot special about 50 damage specifically; it's just in general how much damage you should try to do per shot. Also, won't be hard to tell how close the opponent was to the explosion. Maybe not always, but often enough that it won't be a problem.
And inkjet does the same thing and it doesn't feel bad to use, so why would this?

Inkjet also has a big radius for both 50 and 30 and due to lack of linear drop off, it’s MUCH easier to tell if you got a 50 or 30. It becomes even easier because you know exactly where it’s hitting because it always either hits a surface or hits a player. Plus, often enough for it to not be a problem is also not good reliability. It may sound like a small change, but you have no clue on how horrible it feels to be stuck with a potential three shot with a slow shooting blaster, to the point where it’s just flat out not a good change, even as a buff. Ballpoint has the same issue now where you may not miss a lot due to shot deviation but the one bullet that DOES miss means EVERYTHING for engagements. So imagine if that’s the case for a weapon with a tiny radius, less range, and 60 frames between each shot. Yeah no. Even from the Chara video that touched on this concept, if it wasn’t a good idea for Rapid which has better fire rate and larger blast radius, what would make it a good, let alone necessary concept to put on S’Blast?

 

[youre_a_squib_now]

There’s a major difference here, and that’s the fact Range has a MUCH bigger AOE, so if you hit the first shot, unless your opponent can flee efficiently or fight back, you KNOW you will kill on the second.

I really should think more about which weapons I use for my comparisons. You're right, the comparison doesn't really work with range because of the difference in blast radius. Here's what I was actually trying to compare.

For s-blast currently, if you've hit them once, you don't know if your next shot will kill or not, because you don't know if it'll hit. You can't know, until it either hits or not. This is the exact same situation as s-blast with the change. You don't know if your next shot will kill or not, because you don't know if it'll hit for enough damage. It's the same thing. Not knowing whether it'll kill won't feel worse, because you already don't know if it'll kill. S-blast would be no less consistent than it is right now. This change doesn't add any uncertainty, it just keeps some of the uncertainty that is already there.

And it’s MUCH easier to tell how much you hit on something like Range rather than S’Blast. If you want to make this idea work, I’d say it’d have to be on a weapon with a big radius and something that has a need for it, which is why I actually like the idea on clash.

It's hard to tell how much damage you do right now, but with the change it wouldn't be hard because 1, the shape of the curve, and 2, the radius is bigger now. The outside third would do consistently at least 40, the next third would do at least 50, and the middle would do 80. It could take a bit of getting used to, but I have an idea at the end that will make it not as much of an issue.
As for having a use for a larger blast radius, approximately the entire first half of the chara vid is about how small the current blast radius is and why it makes such a big difference. A bigger radius would help it a ton, even if it doesn't do 50 damage.

Inkjet also has a big radius for both 50 and 30 and due to lack of linear drop off, it’s MUCH easier to tell if you got a 50 or 30. It becomes even easier because you know exactly where it’s hitting because it always either hits a surface or hits a player.

True.

Plus, often enough for it to not be a problem is also not good reliability.

When I said this, I meant that you would almost always be able to tell, and almost always is definitely enough for it to not be a problem. You would almost always be able to tell because in order for an opponent to be in your 50 damage radius, they essentially have to be in your line of sight because of how small the radius is. So if you can see them, you can directly see how close to the center they are, and if you can't, they're probably in the outside radius anyway.

It may sound like a small change, but you have no clue on how horrible it feels to be stuck with a potential three shot with a slow shooting blaster, to the point where it’s just flat out not a good change, even as a buff. Ballpoint has the same issue now where you may not miss a lot due to shot deviation but the one bullet that DOES miss means EVERYTHING for engagements. So imagine if that’s the case for a weapon with a tiny radius, less range, and 60 frames between each shot. Yeah no.

I could be wrong but I don't think you read my other post. I'll quote the relevant part here.

In the training room, hitting targets with the tiny 1.8 or 2.0 blast radius isn't that hard, but in an actual match, it might as well not exist. The weapon would not be all that different if the long range mode didn't have an explosion at all. This might be an exaggeration, but not a large one. It does pretty much nothing, except occasionally two shotting if you get lucky.
Being a weapon that can only shoot once per second, having an entire shot accomplish literally nothing leaves you extremely vulnerable. If someone is rushing you down, by the time you have a second shot they're probably next to you already, meaning your large short range blast radius isn't helpful because you'll only get one more shot before you're dead. The advantage to this buff isn't that you gain the ability to three shot; that's almost never going to be relevant. It's that you gain the ability to damage opponents slightly and make your next shot much more threatening. In the situation from before, even if you only dealt 40 damage, it would now be very silly for them to rush you because you could almost guaranteed splat them with your gigantic short range hitbox. So not only did you survive, you stopped them from even trying to rush you because of how stupid it would be to attempt it, just by hitting them with 40 damage.

I especially want to point out these bits.

Being a weapon that can only shoot once per second, having an entire shot accomplish literally nothing leaves you extremely vulnerable.

The advantage to this buff isn't that you gain the ability to three shot; that's almost never going to be relevant. It's that you gain the ability to damage opponents slightly and make your next shot much more threatening.

S-blast currently has the same problem that ballpoint did, and my change is intended to fix it. The radius buff is like the accuracy buff for ballpoint. It makes the shot more consistent, because missing a shot makes a big difference in the middle of a fight, even more than BP. This consistency is really important, and it's the main thing s-blast is lacking right now.

Even from the Chara video that touched on this concept, if it wasn’t a good idea for Rapid which has better fire rate and larger blast radius, what would make it a good, let alone necessary concept to put on S’Blast?

It was a problem for rapid because the indirect is its primary method of splatting opponents. It's balanced around splatting people by using the large hitbox. But the s-blast long range explosion is not and should not be your main way to splat people; that's not how the weapon is designed. It should be able to do some damage consistently, but it shouldn't be able to do 50 consistently.



Thinking about how important consistency is made me realize that an even better change for the short range mode would be just buffing the minimum damage to 60. That way, a long range indirect, even if you don't know how much damage it did, will always combo with a short range indirect. This makes it even more threatening to hit 40 damage, because you have a giant 60 damage hitbox that they will have to enter to get close to you. It keeps the long range + short range combo 100% consistent like before.

 

[Terret]

I really should think more about which weapons I use for my comparisons. You're right, the comparison doesn't really work with range because of the difference in blast radius. Here's what I was actually trying to compare.

For s-blast currently, if you've hit them once, you don't know if your next shot will kill or not, because you don't know if it'll hit. You can't know, until it either hits or not. This is the exact same situation as s-blast with the change. You don't know if your next shot will kill or not, because you don't know if it'll hit for enough damage. It's the same thing. Not knowing whether it'll kill won't feel worse, because you already don't know if it'll kill. S-blast would be no less consistent than it is right now. This change doesn't add any uncertainty, it just keeps some of the uncertainty that is already there.

A bit weird to explain but you likely won’t NEED to hit another long range shot if you hit the first one. Either you direct and it’s not an issue, you get the chance to finish with short range mode, or combo with your sub. S’Blast is far more unique in that it’s meant to be much more of a skill shot weapon than any other blaster while also having a large short ranged AOE mode as a crutch. This is why I’d rather keep the AOE of the long ranged mode as small as it is but have it be terrifying.

It's hard to tell how much damage you do right now, but with the change it wouldn't be hard because 1, the shape of the curve, and 2, the radius is bigger now. The outside third would do consistently at least 40, the next third would do at least 50, and the middle would do 80. It could take a bit of getting used to, but I have an idea at the end that will make it not as much of an issue.
As for having a use for a larger blast radius, approximately the entire first half of the chara vid is about how small the current blast radius is and why it makes such a big difference. A bigger radius would help it a ton, even if it doesn't do 50 damage.

I see your point but I don’t think he meant wanting to buff the radius itself, rather make that radius init of itself more valuable to hit, to again, keep the weapon very difficult but still be rewarding, hence why I feel a minimum of 50 is as necessary as it is.

When I said this, I meant that you would almost always be able to tell, and almost always is definitely enough for it to not be a problem. You would almost always be able to tell because in order for an opponent to be in your 50 damage radius, they essentially have to be in your line of sight because of how small the radius is. So if you can see them, you can directly see how close to the center they are, and if you can't, they're probably in the outside radius anyway.

That’s really not a good way to think about it. It’s like you’re trying to say you can read when a goo is at lethal charge without that indicator. You could but if Nintendo went out of their way to put an indicator, did it make sense to?

I could be wrong but I don't think you read my other post. I'll quote the relevant part here.


I especially want to point out these bits.

I’d see your point here if something didn’t contradict. And that’s the fact the point of this is for consistency and yet the risk of an extra shot needed to kill that came with the consistency buff is the epitome of inconsistency

S-blast currently has the same problem that ballpoint did, and my change is intended to fix it. The radius buff is like the accuracy buff for ballpoint. It makes the shot more consistent, because missing a shot makes a big difference in the middle of a fight, even more than BP. This consistency is really important, and it's the main thing s-blast is lacking right now.

In terms of consistency, I’m actually okay with it being as inconsistent as it is right now. As for why, it’s because the inconsistency here unlike Ballpoint, has nothing to do with Rng or anything with indirect damage, rather just being a very difficult weapon to use. Same reason weapons like Squiffer, Tent, and Stamper haven’t been touched much in terms of the weapon despite very few using it, and why mitigating a weakness is kind of boring as a potential option of buffing.

It was a problem for rapid because the indirect is its primary method of splatting opponents. It's balanced around splatting people by using the large hitbox. But the s-blast long range explosion is not and should not be your main way to splat people; that's not how the weapon is designed. It should be able to do some damage consistently, but it shouldn't be able to do 50 consistently.

If the long ranged radius is not meant to be the way to splat people, then why buff the radius in the first place? Plus, if even with a radius increase it’s still a chore to get an indirect, then why shouldn’t it do 50 consistently?

Thinking about how important consistency is made me realize that an even better change for the short range mode would be just buffing the minimum damage to 60. That way, a long range indirect, even if you don't know how much damage it did, will always combo with a short range indirect. This makes it even more threatening to hit 40 damage, because you have a giant 60 damage hitbox that they will have to enter to get close to you. It keeps the long range + short range combo 100% consistent like before.

It’s a cool thought but again, what would be the difference if the long ranged firing mode just had a minimum of 50? 40 damage indirect just feels like such an unnecessary inconsistency

 

[youre_a_squib_now]

A bit weird to explain but you likely won’t NEED to hit another long range shot if you hit the first one. Either you direct and it’s not an issue, you get the chance to finish with short range mode, or combo with your sub. S’Blast is far more unique in that it’s meant to be much more of a skill shot weapon than any other blaster while also having a large short ranged AOE mode as a crutch.

YES. I didn't know how to explain this, but you did it perfectly.

This is why I’d rather keep the AOE of the long ranged mode as small as it is but have it be terrifying.

The long range mode doing very good damage and splatting on its own should be a reward for having very good aim, either from a direct or two close indirects. Riibalanced currently does this part very well.

However, due to requiring such aim, it can't consistently do any damage at all, so burst bombs and the short range mode can't combo with it like you said above, because there's essentially nothing to combo with. This is a big problem.

The dilemma is this: how can we make the long range mode be able to more consistently combo with the short range mode without requiring extremely good aim, without making it easier to get the very good damage that is supposed to be a reward for said good aim?

The buff solves this. By adding a larger blast radius that does 40 damage and giving the short range mode 60 damage minimum, it makes the long range part of the combo hit more consistently, without making the strong damage and two shot hit any more consistently.

I see your point but I don’t think he meant wanting to buff the radius itself, rather make that radius init of itself more valuable to hit, to again, keep the weapon very difficult but still be rewarding, hence why I feel a minimum of 50 is as necessary as it is.

I wasn't saying that Chara wanted specifically this buff; I was just using the video as evidence that a larger radius would indeed help the weapon.

I agree with you and chara that having that level of aim should be more rewarded, but I also don't see any reason not to give a much smaller reward for aim that's slightly off, especially if it would fix one of the weapon's biggest issues.

That’s really not a good way to think about it. It’s like you’re trying to say you can read when a goo is at lethal charge without that indicator. You could but if Nintendo went out of their way to put an indicator, did it make sense to?

An indicator for the 50 damage radius would be a helpful addition like it was for goober, but that doesn't mean not having an indicator is a reason to not add it. Goo didn't have an indicator at first, and it wasn't a problem; it just took some practice. Just because we can't add an indicator for the 50 damage radius doesn't mean a 50 damage radius is a bad thing to add.

Also, an indicator makes fundamentally more sense for goober than for s-blast because it marks a big change in what your shot can do. The difference between 99 and 101 damage is huge. I don't need to explain this. For s-blast though, the difference between 49 and 51 damage is that... you can hit 0.1 units further away for the next shot to kill. This is hardly a noticeable difference. So although it might be a useful guideline, it wouldn't be nearly as practically helpful as goober's.

That said, it might be possible to put the visual effect for the explosion at the 50 damage radius, effectively making the explosion its own indicator. I'll see if I can figure it out.

I’d see your point here if something didn’t contradict. And that’s the fact the point of this is for consistency and yet the risk of an extra shot needed to kill that came with the consistency buff is the epitome of inconsistency

It's not a contradiction; it's simply a question of which thing we want to be consistent. The two shot, or the combo. I think the combo is more important here partly because the short range + long range combo should be stronger than two long range shots (see quote at the top), and partly because the consistency issue with the two shot wouldn't be a problem with the damage itself but with the player's awareness of it, and this awareness will get better with practice, which isn't a problem considering it's a high investment weapon anyway. An indicator could potentially help with this, but again, I don't think the lack of one is a good reason to not do the change.

In terms of consistency, I’m actually okay with it being as inconsistent as it is right now. As for why, it’s because the inconsistency here unlike Ballpoint, has nothing to do with Rng or anything with indirect damage, rather just being a very difficult weapon to use. Same reason weapons like Squiffer, Tent, and Stamper haven’t been touched much in terms of the weapon despite very few using it, and why mitigating a weakness is kind of boring as a potential option of buffing.

The two shot being as inconsistent as it is right now is fine, and it looks like that's what you're talking about here. So I agree with you on that. But the combo has another problem that hasn't really been talked about yet.

The two explosions are pretty far apart from each other, and they're useful for different types of terrain. The short range aoe really likes being under ledges, behind large blocks of cover, etc. while the long range mode likes flat, open ground a lot more. This is also a weakness of the weapon, that makes it so that the short range + long range combo specifically is harder to pull off. Because of this difficulty of doing the combo (in addition to the other reasons) I think it's okay to make the combo more consistent.

As for buffing a weakness, if the options were to buff a strength or weakness and that's all the information I had, I'd choose buffing a strength. And I think in general, that's the better option, because it makes weapons more unique and interesting. But buffing weaknesses isn't inherently bad; each potential change needs to be assessed on its own merits. In fact, unlike a lot of potential weakness buffs, this change would add to the weapon's identity instead of removing from it. The long range aoe would still be very weak, like it is now, but would combo easier with the short range mode, giving that unique aspect of the weapon an actual chance to shine. Also, it would be the first blaster to have a long range aoe that can poke around corners but does damage very slowly when doing so, giving it even more utility and even more unique things about it.

Besides, you didn't even argue that it would take away from the weapon's identity or something, you just said it would be "boring". That is entirely subjective, but I believe the end of the above paragraph gives several reasons why it wouldn't be boring.

If the long ranged radius is not meant to be the way to splat people, then why buff the radius in the first place? Plus, if even with a radius increase it’s still a chore to get an indirect, then why shouldn’t it do 50 consistently?

It’s a cool thought but again, what would be the difference if the long ranged firing mode just had a minimum of 50? 40 damage indirect just feels like such an unnecessary inconsistency

I explained this at the beginning.

 

[OnePotWonder]

Hey guys, I have an idea for splitting Goo Tuber into two weapons, but I don't think it would fit here, nor would it be possible for you to replicate either concept with simple mods. Would you like me to notify you if I post a separate thread covering my ideas?

 

[Terret]

Hey guys, I have an idea for splitting Goo Tuber into two weapons, but I don't think it would fit here, nor would it be possible for you to replicate either concept with simple mods. Would you like me to notify you if I post a separate thread covering my ideas?

Alrighty, I’m intrigued

 

[youre_a_squib_now]

What if instead of Booyah's current nerfs, the time before you get armor is reduced by 5 or 10 frames? This would make it still work as a continuation special, but make it harder to panic, so it would have to be used more proactively. This would make it feel less bad to fight, and it would justify removing the hp nerf, because as far as I can tell that was to make stalling less annoying. I think this makes it less annoying in a healthier way.

The radius nerf could also be removed because that was just to make the special weaker, and the armor startup nerf does that as well. Plus it feels weird to buff inkjet and nerf booyah, they're around the same strength rn and just both get countered really hard by the current meta.

 

[Terret]

What if instead of Booyah's current nerfs, the time before you get armor is reduced by 5 or 10 frames? This would make it still work as a continuation special, but make it harder to panic, so it would have to be used more proactively. This would make it feel less bad to fight, and it would justify removing the hp nerf, because as far as I can tell that was to make stalling less annoying. I think this makes it less annoying in a healthier way.

The radius nerf could also be removed because that was just to make the special weaker, and the armor startup nerf does that as well. Plus it feels weird to buff inkjet and nerf booyah, they're around the same strength rn and just both get countered really hard by the current meta.

Increasing startup to get armor would be a good change and I’ll probably revert the hp nerf. That said, there’s a reason why I did a radius nerf specifically to Booyah and that is because it is probably the most infuriating aspect of it behind the armor being a lot. I kept it small though. To compensate, I made the scaling for teammates charging better because I do think it’s a cool aspect that isn’t taken advantage of enough. It sounds unimpactful but 12 free points on first Booyah I wouldn’t say is something to scoff at compared to 6.

 

[Terret]

I guess I should have shared this earlier, but due to the current state of the project, I’m really unsure on what’s a good approach for many weapons right now and due to that, I will be overall less willing to do extreme changes going forward likely until I’m in a state to do PVP testing or specifically for weapons that haven’t been touched but are noticeably weak (Recycled Brella and Swig come to mind here). I’m sorry if extreme ideas go on the wayside for a bit. I feel kinda stuck in limbo

 

[youre_a_squib_now]

I guess I should have shared this earlier, but due to the current state of the project, I’m really unsure on what’s a good approach for many weapons right now and due to that, I will be overall less willing to do extreme changes going forward likely until I’m in a state to do PVP testing or specifically for weapons that haven’t been touched but are noticeably weak (Recycled Brella and Swig come to mind here). I’m sorry if extreme ideas go on the wayside for a bit. I feel kinda stuck in limbo

I think I understand. I have two suggestions.

I think it would be helpful to watch this video, and do a similar thing yourself. You obviously don't have to come to the same conclusion as him, and you aren't required to share what conclusion you do come to, but it's really, crucially important to figure out what you actually want from the project.

I also think it would be helpful to have an "experimental" release. Kind of like github builds (I don't actually use github but I think that's how it works). That way you can include the big, weird changes and test them out ingame without committing to putting them in the actual release, a luxury Nintendo doesn't have (because if they added a cool thing and then decided it wouldn't be a good idea, people would be upset). Even before you're able to test things, you could still make one release that includes the changes you're fairly confident will work (this would be 3.0 I assume) and another that includes those plus the ideas that need testing. Idk how well gamebanana is set up for this but considering I used github as an example, github probably is. Idk how well that would work either though, because again, I haven't used it before.

If you do end up doing the experimental release thing, dapple's extra roll should probably be moved to there. I kinda said "here's a cool idea I thought of" and you were like "cool, sounds interesting" and put it in lol. I still like the change but it's definitely the kind of change that the experimental release would be for.

 

[McSquid82]

I don't think the Goo Tuber needs to be split into separate weapons, I just think it needs to be changed from a middleweight to a lightweight weapon. It's considered trash by most of the competitive community for a charger and to make it better it should be the same weight roughly as a Squiffer or Bamboozler. The mobility it would gain would actually help it, and being able to hold a charge over three times as long as other chargers would actually mean something. Being lighter would help its swim speed and it would actually be able to better do its intended purpose, which is stealth.

 

[Terret]

I think I understand. I have two suggestions.

I think it would be helpful to watch this video, and do a similar thing yourself. You obviously don't have to come to the same conclusion as him, and you aren't required to share what conclusion you do come to, but it's really, crucially important to figure out what you actually want from the project.

I also think it would be helpful to have an "experimental" release. Kind of like github builds (I don't actually use github but I think that's how it works). That way you can include the big, weird changes and test them out ingame without committing to putting them in the actual release, a luxury Nintendo doesn't have (because if they added a cool thing and then decided it wouldn't be a good idea, people would be upset). Even before you're able to test things, you could still make one release that includes the changes you're fairly confident will work (this would be 3.0 I assume) and another that includes those plus the ideas that need testing. Idk how well gamebanana is set up for this but considering I used github as an example, github probably is. Idk how well that would work either though, because again, I haven't used it before.

If you do end up doing the experimental release thing, dapple's extra roll should probably be moved to there. I kinda said "here's a cool idea I thought of" and you were like "cool, sounds interesting" and put it in lol. I still like the change but it's definitely the kind of change that the experimental release would be for.

I like the idea and that’s probably what I’ll do for now. 2.1 right now is the current safe build and 3.0 is still in the works to try to be sure of as much as possible to make it a polished release that won’t have any significant reversions (something like Stamp, Dapples, and especially what’s in store for Recycled Brella which I’ll get into at some point. Brace yourself :) ). I haven’t used GitHub at all for making projects yet but it might be a bit better than just a google drive link