Making a hypothetical balance patch and screwing with some kits

[Terret]

Vac's explosion is designed in a very specific way that justifies the lack of an outside hitbox.
I think that the special needs better flexibility rather than an even stronger shot.

If I had to buff Vac, the way I'd do it is:
Making it immune to rush attacks because it doesn't make sense that some weapon classes can just ignore its only form of protection.
Letting it fire the shot at any time during the special's duration.
Maybe increasing its default strafe speed or letting it ignore enemy ink completely while using suction? It'd be funny, at least.

There is one particular rework I have for Vac has to do with filling it. Instead of the suction ending, I think the area of the suction should be halved, and if the special absorbs more ink beyond its capacity, it explodes on the spot rather than being able to fire. Sacrificing a bit of offensive ability for survivability and putting more emphasis on the suction.

Immunity to rush attacks I feel is unnecessary because every interaction in that regard, besides Kraken I feel is fair. As for the suction change, I really can’t do that due to the code that is necessary to even think about it. Though interesting. Canceling the shot has the same issue. Movement speed I actually did to try to set up a 3.0 build, it is kinda funny but also feels fair so I’m keeping it

 

[youre_a_squib_now]

Vac's explosion is designed in a very specific way that justifies the lack of an outside hitbox.

What way is that?

I think that the special needs better flexibility rather than an even stronger shot.

Fair.

If I had to buff Vac, the way I'd do it is:
Making it immune to rush attacks because it doesn't make sense that some weapon classes can just ignore its only form of protection.

This would help it, but I think it's both unnecessary and unintuitive. You can suck up ink, but it doesn't make sense to suck up melee attacks. I think a better way to fix the issue would be to make splatana dashes travel a shorter distance if they're stuck in the vac. This makes it so the slowdown still has an effect, but it doesn't remove that counterplay entirely. Rollers are already fine against it I think.

Letting it fire the shot at any time during the special's duration.

This would definitely help the flexibility. Will probably be hard to program though.

Maybe increasing its default strafe speed or letting it ignore enemy ink completely while using suction? It'd be funny, at least.

Ink resistance would be funny but if you're using it with your team (which you should be) there's no reason for your feet to not be painted your own color.

There is one particular rework I have for Vac has to do with filling it. Instead of the suction ending, I think the area of the suction should be halved, and if the special absorbs more ink beyond its capacity, it explodes on the spot rather than being able to fire. Sacrificing a bit of offensive ability for survivability and putting more emphasis on the suction.

There are some good and bad things about this idea, but it would be next to impossible to code. Nintendo could do it, but I'm not Nintendo. At least firing it early only involves triggering code that's already there.

 

[youre_a_squib_now]

Movement speed I actually did to try to set up a 3.0 build, it is kinda funny but also feels fair so I’m keeping it

Out of curiosity how much did you increase it by?

 

[Terret]

Out of curiosity how much did you increase it by?

11% on inhale, 14% while preparing exhale

 

[youre_a_squib_now]

With all due respect, I am planning to NERF vac’s blast radius and trying to figure out healthier ways to buff it. There is no way I am making that nuclear shot any bigger than it already is, even if damage were to be decreased

For how slow and predictable of a projectile it is, the blast radius feels fair to avoid as it is. I don't see any reason to nerf it.

 

[OnePotWonder]

Immunity to rush attacks I feel is unnecessary because every interaction in that regard, besides Kraken I feel is fair. As for the suction change, I really can’t do that due to the code that is necessary to even think about it. Though interesting. Canceling the shot has the same issue. Movement speed I actually did to try to set up a 3.0 build, it is kinda funny but also feels fair so I’m keeping it

Fair enough.
When I come up with balance changes, I don't think, "Would this make the thing better?" I think, "Would this make the thing cooler?"

Another example of this is an idea I have for Squeezer, actually. I'm thinking of nerfing its maximum tap fire rate by a whole four frames, but compensating the nerf by making the spray fire rate 1 frame faster and making its spray shots deal 34 damage.
I still don't know why Squeezer has a firing mode that's completely useless in combat. Every other weapon with two firing modes can fight effectively with both of them. I also don't know why nothing does 34 damage.
To be fair, Nintendo only just started adding weapons that just barely do enough damage to splat in four shots, it's understandable that they haven't thought of one that barely splats in three yet. Though, 34 damage is on two Salmon Run weapons. Guess what? One of them is Squeezer's spray fire.
I think this change might actually make Squeezer not cancerous to the game.

 

[Terret]

For how slow and predictable of a projectile it is, the blast radius feels fair to avoid as it is. I don't see any reason to nerf it.

I get what you mean, but I do still think a radius that big is still kind of dumb, even if it’s not overtuned

 

[OnePotWonder]

What way is that?

The way it explodes into a spiky ball rather than being a normal explosion. There's no area in the explosion radius where one logically wouldn't take maximum damage.

 

[youre_a_squib_now]

I get what you mean, but I do still think a radius that big is still kind of dumb, even if it’s not overtuned

It's actually fairly weak by itself, especially since you can't really play off of the explosion. This encourages using the large radius to support your teammates, which is the entire point of the special. This is a good thing.

 

[OnePotWonder]

It's actually fairly weak by itself, especially since you can't really play off of the explosion. This encourages using the large radius to support your teammates, which is the entire point of the special. This is a good thing.

I think its better to avoid buffing lethal radii. If I really want to buff Vac's shot, I would increase its air travel speed.
Besides, bigger explosions just lead to more effective Splat Zones cheese.

 

[youre_a_squib_now]

I don't think it should be buffed anymore. I'm just saying I don't think it should be nerfed either.

 

[youre_a_squib_now]

this

You said buff or rework, but I don't think these really should be the same category. So I'll have 4 things.

Buff: Big Bubbler
This works great for weapons that synergize well with it, but it gets absolutely shredded by most specials in the game, meaning that they can't use it as a shield for very long. Of course this varies by special, but the ones that are good against it should do 0.5x damage to it so that it isn't countered by half of the specials in the game, and most of the good ones.
Actually, giving it utility specifically as a special blocker would be really cool. Being able to stand in the open and threaten things without having to worry about a crab or zooka would make the special be a way more functional shield, and it would offer a counter to zooka (and crab once cooler is nerfed). So specials (that do good damage to it) should only do 0.4x damage.

0.4x damage to bubble	no change	n/a
zooka missiles booyah wail? stamp crab slider strikes	zip storm kraken vac inkjet chumps TSD	bubble wave breaker? cooler screen

Nerf: Pencil
Do I really need to explain this one?

Rework: Blob
Blob plays best by staying back and painting an area, using its lingering shots and good paint to control an area from a distance. This is problematic in the same way that sub spam would be problematic if it was good. So it should be nerfed the same way we would nerf sub spam: ink efficiency. 20% more ink consumption per lob would let it keep its identity as a good painter/space controller, but make it not be able to spam it as much. It should also get a buff that lets it be better at fighting, since the shots being so slow makes it really hard to do more than make the enemies move side to side. So it should also get a shot velocity buff. 200% at first, so that if there's someone near you you actually have a chance of hitting them, and then gradually less and less speed as the blobs keep going.

Delete: Sprinkler
All the arguments I've seen for deleting angle shooter are based on it being weak. But I don't think that justifies removing it from the game; it simply needs more buffs. Sprinkler, on the other hand, is fundamentally not well designed. Having a sub weapon that only paints has only two potential uses. One is painting for area control. The problem with this is that any relevant sprinkler position will either be shot down immediately and get no value, or it will be a "sprinkler spot" that is very difficult or impossible to shoot down and paints an unfair amount in a relevant position on the map. The other use is passive special charge, which really does not need to have its own dedicated sub. If you want something to be good at getting special, just give it a paint or pfs buff.

 

[youre_a_squib_now]

Apparently IA now makes aerospray worse.
idk how we'd fix it though but it's kinda funny

 

[Terret]

Apparently IA now makes aerospray worse.
idk how we'd fix it though but it's kinda funny

Wait WHAT!? LMAO THATS ACTUALLY HILARIOUS

 

[youre_a_squib_now]

I looked up the damage multipliers for bombs on sendou and apparently bombs have a universal 2x damage multiplier against wall and a few other things, which is kind of ridiculous. This multiplier also applies against bubble weak points, the rainmaker shield, and brella shields, which all don't do very well against bombs. (It also applies to beakons and sprinklers but those die instantly either way so it doesn't really matter.) I think it would make sense to reduce this to 1.3x damage so that bombs still work on these things, but aren't quite so much stronger than other options.
Also, since you can throw two curlings now, the max damage of those should be reduced to 160.

As well as nerfing bombs, this buffs big bubbler and brellas, which could do with some buffs. However it also buffs splash wall by making one of the best ways to shred it significantly worse. So it should receive some kind of nerf to compensate. We could just nerf the damage, but I think it would be more interesting to nerf the duration instead. Because the duration and health are tied to each other, this means that the wall is strong at first, but if it is used for a longer period of time, it gets easier and easier to shred, making it better at pushing up, and worse at stalling. 6 seconds seems fair. This would also mean that weapons that have no hope shredding it don't have to deal with it for as long. That said, 35% less damage from bombs is still a sizable buff, so 50 less HP couldn't hurt.

 

[Terret]

I looked up the damage multipliers for bombs on sendou and apparently bombs have a universal 2x damage multiplier against wall and a few other things, which is kind of ridiculous. This multiplier also applies against bubble weak points, the rainmaker shield, and brella shields, which all don't do very well against bombs. (It also applies to beakons and sprinklers but those die instantly either way so it doesn't really matter.) I think it would make sense to reduce this to 1.3x damage so that bombs still work on these things, but aren't quite so much stronger than other options.
Also, since you can throw two curlings now, the max damage of those should be reduced to 160.

As well as nerfing bombs, this buffs big bubbler and brellas, which could do with some buffs. However it also buffs splash wall by making one of the best ways to shred it significantly worse. So it should receive some kind of nerf to compensate. We could just nerf the damage, but I think it would be more interesting to nerf the duration instead. Because the duration and health are tied to each other, this means that the wall is strong at first, but if it is used for a longer period of time, it gets easier and easier to shred, making it better at pushing up, and worse at stalling. 6 seconds seems fair. This would also mean that weapons that have no hope shredding it don't have to deal with it for as long. That said, 35% less damage from bombs is still a sizable buff, so 50 less HP couldn't hurt.

Okay, hot take: I think the DPS part of most bombs is honestly fine. If they say, oneshot wall or something, I’d see where you’re coming from, but breaking undercover in 1 hit is not that absurd for a bomb. And because most of the lethal bombs cost a hefty cost and the two that don’t either can’t be aimed or don’t have great object damage to begin with, I’m actually okay with their damage. Maybe if I figure out multipliers I’ll tone back RM shield lightly but otherwise, I don’t particularly see the issue. Most bombs are a little bit too strong but I don’t think this is the right way about it.

 

[youre_a_squib_now]

Okay, hot take: I think the DPS part of most bombs is honestly fine. If they say, oneshot wall or something, I’d see where you’re coming from, but breaking undercover in 1 hit is not that absurd for a bomb. And because most of the lethal bombs cost a hefty cost and the two that don’t either can’t be aimed or don’t have great object damage to begin with, I’m actually okay with their damage. Maybe if I figure out multipliers I’ll tone back RM shield lightly but otherwise, I don’t particularly see the issue. Most bombs are a little bit too strong but I don’t think this is the right way about it.

Maybe you have a point, but wall specifically still feels really bad to fight unless you have bombs because one bomb does almost half of wall's total health. Maybe destroying undercover isn't absurd, but destroying half of an entire splash wall definitely is. So even if bombs overall don't get changed I still think that they should be nerfed against wall specifically. I also still like the duration nerf for wall, for the reasons I mentioned before. Changing bombs to do 1.3x damage to wall instead of 2x as well as nerfing wall's base duration by 1 second would make bombs not as necessary to run against wall, would make wall harder to shred, would make it harder to stall using a wall, and would make weapons without bombs able to shred wall faster. These are all good things, and I don't see any bad ones. Also, if it only applies to splash wall, it wouldn't even be very much of a nerf to bombs because shredding wall isn't the main reason they're good. Besides, they can still punish a wall user for walking through their wall, so it's not like bombs are useless against it.

 

[Terret]

Maybe you have a point, but wall specifically still feels really bad to fight unless you have bombs because one bomb does almost half of wall's total health. Maybe destroying undercover isn't absurd, but destroying half of an entire splash wall definitely is. So even if bombs overall don't get changed I still think that they should be nerfed against wall specifically. I also still like the duration nerf for wall, for the reasons I mentioned before. Changing bombs to do 1.3x damage to wall instead of 2x as well as nerfing wall's base duration by 1 second would make bombs not as necessary to run against wall, would make wall harder to shred, would make it harder to stall using a wall, and would make weapons without bombs able to shred wall faster. These are all good things, and I don't see any bad ones. Also, if it only applies to splash wall, it wouldn't even be very much of a nerf to bombs because shredding wall isn't the main reason they're good. Besides, they can still punish a wall user for walking through their wall, so it's not like bombs are useless against it.

I am planning to nerf wall so I do think that adjusting this is fair. That said, I haven’t found where all the damage multipliers are. Got to figure that out

 

[youre_a_squib_now]

I’m not sure how to alter the scaling to not be uniform at the moment but I’ll figure that out because this needs testing for feel.

I figured it out. You just add more lines.

What do you think of this?
i just realized that these graphs take up the entire screen when viewed on a computer. sorry about that, here's a more helpfully cropped version

 

[Terret]

I figured it out. You just add more lines.
View attachment 10900View attachment 10903
What do you think of this?
i just realized that these graphs take up the entire screen when viewed on a computer. sorry about that, here's a more helpfully cropped version

All good. Definitely an interesting change. That said, thinking back, I really don't think S'Blast needs this. At 2.0 in its current state it genuinely seems okay. I'll still try it because it is interesting tho