Making a hypothetical balance patch and screwing with some kits

[youre_a_squib_now]

@OnePotWonder brought up some interesting sub weapon changes here. I don't agree with all of them, but they're all worthy of consideration I think. Here are my thoughts.

Okay, hear me out: Reducing the paint radius of every single bomb. Severely. This will make sprinkler much better by comparison.

Yes. This is good in so many ways. I don't know about severely, but a 5 or 10% paint radius nerf would still make it noticeably worse. (This would reduce the actual amount of paint by 9.75% or 19%.)

Also an old idea for Toxic Mist; reducing the size of the cloud but making it linger on opponents who leave it for a few seconds. A sort of hybrid between current Toxic Mist and Disruptor.

This would help trap people that you throw it directly onto, but nerfing the radius means that it's easier to ignore otherwise.
It following you out of the cloud would also not feel great to fight, since there's basically nothing you can do until it wears off. Similar problem to S1 disruptor. If it lasts a second or less I don't think this would be a problem though.

I'd have to play around with it in recon, but I think a slight radius buff would be more helpful for it. It would have a similar effect (instead of sticking to you when you leave, it just takes longer to leave) and would also be harder to ignore (because it's more likely to be in the way of where you're trying to go).

For Curling Bomb, 45 contact damage. The curling combos would go crazy.

What curling really needs is an ink consumption buff, but we already gave it that, and this would be funny. I don't see any reason not to.
Actually, this plus increasing the hitbox size (of the direct, not the explosion) would probably give this a decent amount of combat utility, which would be really nice.

Lastly, Angle Shooter. First and foremost, a longer tripwire duration. Longer tracking duration on a direct hit and 45 damage would be nice buffs.

These are pretty uncontroversial, I think.

As for reworking it, I don't actually agree with the trail doing damage. I think it makes more sense for the trail to paint a narrow line on the floor below it. Also having the sub pierce opponents.

The problem is that dart doesn't do anything that other subs don't do, except for combos outside of burst range. Giving it more movement utility than it already has is... nice, I guess? But we already have curling and fizzy. The tripwire would make it unique if there was any incentive to not cross it, but rn there just isn't very much of one. Tripwire damage would give it great utility as well as separate it from other subs.

Piercing seems a bit weird to me, since dart is the cheapest sub in the game and is meant to be a weaker sub that can be used more often. Piercing is the opposite of that. Right now the only things in the entire game that pierce are fully charged charger shots and maybe the rainmaker, which are some of the slowest and most powerful shots in the game.
I don't think it would be broken or anything (I actually think it wouldn't make that much of a difference) but it feels very counterintuitive, and I don't think counterintuitive things are great things to add.

 

[Terret]

I do think most of the bombs are fine right now. That said, I wouldn't mind nerfing them by a margin. Mist does need a radius and an effect buff. I only nerfed it to 55 because I'm still trying to figure it out so it's a temporary bandaid. Curling 45 imo would be a bit too much for 45% of the ink tank, would 30 be fair to call it even? Dart definitely needs the tripwire to do something so having the dart do damage is essential to making it work. I also finally found time to actually test repeat frames. They don't work on subs unfortunately

 

[a hot mess]

 

[youre_a_squib_now]

Mist does need a radius and an effect buff. I only nerfed it to 55 because I'm still trying to figure it out so it's a temporary bandaid.

Making squid rolls be less effective through it would also be a good change.

Curling 45 imo would be a bit too much for 45% of the ink tank, would 30 be fair to call it even?

yeah I guess that makes sense. I think it should still either get 35 or a hitbox buff

I also finally found time to actually test repeat frames. They don't work on subs unfortunately

sadness.
direct + direct + tripwire might be a problem then
Why doesn't it work? Does something reference specials specifically, and could it be changed to work on subs?
If not, is that fine or does dart need other nerfs? And (this is the question i've been struggling to answer) how else could we nerf dart's combo potential with itself, without hurting its ability to work with your main weapon?

 

[youre_a_squib_now]

direct + direct + tripwire might be a problem then

It would still be 90% of your ink though so I'm not sure

 

[Terret]

Making squid rolls be less effective through it would also be a good change.

Had I knew how to implement that, I definitely would. Still a lot to figure out.

yeah I guess that makes sense. I think it should still either get 35 or a hitbox buff

Because it's meant to be more of a movement tool, I don't really like the thought of going too far with damage for it specifically. Hitbox buff maybe.

sadness.
direct + direct + tripwire might be a problem then
Why doesn't it work? Does something reference specials specifically, and could it be changed to work on subs?
If not, is that fine or does dart need other nerfs? And (this is the question i've been struggling to answer) how else could we nerf dart's combo potential with itself, without hurting its ability to work with your main weapon?

Subs are unique in that they simply cost so much ink most of the time that they just don't have repeat frames as a parameter. And since no sub has ever had it, it becomes a lot harder, maybe even impossible to actually add repeat frames. I anticipated this, hence why I didn't buff it to 30% before. At 40%, I feel the way it is is fine. Nothing to worry about with directs and tripwires doing crazy kills.

 

[Terret]

So I started working on making my own balance patch to see how to bring the game to a more favorable state after the thing known as 7.0 came out and fixed nothing. Here’s the WiP for now if you want to try it: https://gamebanana.com/wips/83079

2.1 is now out! Been light on balance due to focusing more on kits and wanting more testing on some things, but as time goes on, I'll start getting back to more balancing

 

[OnePotWonder]

Glad you guys agree with some of my sub changes. The mist radius idea is also an interesting take on the buff, I think I like it more than my idea.

By the way, do you think that you would be able to alter Squid (Roll/Surge) Armor? I have some ideas regarding it.

 

[Terret]

By the way, do you think that you would be able to alter Squid (Roll/Surge) Armor? I have some ideas regarding it.

I definitely want to but at the moment, I have no idea how to mess with it. I’ll look into it

 

[youre_a_squib_now]

Subs are unique in that they simply cost so much ink most of the time that they just don't have repeat frames as a parameter. And since no sub has ever had it, it becomes a lot harder, maybe even impossible to actually add repeat frames. I anticipated this, hence why I didn't buff it to 30% before. At 40%, I feel the way it is is fine. Nothing to worry about with directs and tripwires doing crazy kills.

I think I figured out another potential solution.
The problem is that if the ink consumption is low enough to throw three, and the darts do enough damage to reliably combo with stuff, then the darts would be fairly good at killing by themselves.

40 and 15 seem like good numbers for the direct and tripwire, but the issue is that sub defense breaks a lot of combos of these damage numbers. So it ends up needing to be 45 and 20. But since you can throw three, this leads to the darts by themselves potentially being very annoying to fight.

So what if we put the damage back at 40 and 15 (or 17.5) and just... make dart immune to sub defense? The tracking duration could still be affected (i'll get to that) so sub defense wouldn't be completely pointless, but it wouldn't break the combos. And at these damage numbers, the only way to kill with 3 darts is if all 3 are directs, which is harder than it sounds. So this would make it still be a good and cheap combo tool without making it combo well with itself.

As for tracking time, I remember someone mentioning it being ironic that you have to know where the opponent is already in order to track them, so I have an idea. What if the tracking duration for directs is buffed to 10 or so seconds, and the tripwire location nerfed to 2 or 3 seconds. This would give marker 2 different forms of location utility that are slightly different from point sensor. The direct doesn't help you find people, since you have to already know where they are, but it would help you keep track of people over a longer period of time. The tripwire would help locate people that go through a specific area, but unlike point sensor, it can be avoided by swimming under it or jumping over it. So the direct would gain extra utility, being able to track opponents for a long time. The tracking duration from the tripwire would be shortened, but I think it's fair considering that the tripwire does damage and the duration from directs got buffed. Also it makes it feel more like a tripwire.

 

[Terret]

So what if we put the damage back at 40 and 15 (or 17.5) and just... make dart immune to sub defense? The tracking duration could still be affected (i'll get to that) so sub defense wouldn't be completely pointless, but it wouldn't break the combos. And at these damage numbers, the only way to kill with 3 darts is if all 3 are directs, which is harder than it sounds. So this would make it still be a good and cheap combo tool without making it combo well with itself.

I don’t really think that idea is a very good one. Removing sub resistance is an insane buff in the regard that allowing a damaging sub to be immune to the effects of sub resistance is just fundamentally problematic. Even if it wasn’t, at this moment, I have no idea how to mess with gear abilities at the moment. I’d understand the thought if sub defense was a problem for the game, but I feel it has a generally positive influence against subs because of how oppressive they can be

 

[youre_a_squib_now]

I don’t really think that idea is a very good one. Removing sub resistance is an insane buff in the regard that allowing a damaging sub to be immune to the effects of sub resistance is just fundamentally problematic. Even if it wasn’t, at this moment, I have no idea how to mess with gear abilities at the moment. I’d understand the thought of sub defense was a problem for the game, but I feel it has a generally positive influence against subs because of how oppressive they can be

Maybe. But angle shooter certainly isn't oppressive right now.

Also, it isn't too insane of a buff because the damage would also be reduced from 20/45 to 15/40, so sub defense wouldn't affect the damage, but it's basically like everyone has 2 or 3 subs of sub defense anyway.

Without making it immune to sub defense, it either (at 20/45 damage) is fine against people with it but annoyingly good against people without it (because it can kill by itself) or (with 15/40 damage) it doesn't do very much against people with sub defense (because its combos get broken) but is balanced against people without it. This way, it can be balanced for both.

I agree that this wouldn't be a great property to put on every sub, otherwise sub defense would be pointless, but I think it's okay to have on one sub. It gives angle shooter more things that are unique about it, and sub defense could still be fairly strong against the location time.

 

[youre_a_squib_now]

Not that this is at all a good idea, but out of curiosity, is it possible to buff a main weapon on one of its kits but not the other?

 

[Terret]

Not that this is at all a good idea, but out of curiosity, is it possible to buff a main weapon on one of its kits but not the other?

Technically no but theoretically yes

 

[youre_a_squib_now]

Updated tables for future reference.

Splatoon 3 7.0.0
charge time (frames) / range (units) / damage

			goo			pencil
tap shot	8 / 20.75 / 30	8 / 10.75 / 40	8 / 13.75 / 40	8 / 10.75 / 40	8 / 10.75 / 40	8 / 10.76 / 40	8 / 10.75 / 40	8 / 10.75 / 40
100 dmg	-	-	53 / 17.91 / 100.4	-	-	-	-	-
max partial	-	45 / 18.25 / 80	75 / 19.95 / 130	60 / 25.75 / 80	60 / 25.75 / 80	72 / 25.77 / 68	92 / 30.76 / 80	92 / 30.76 / 80
full charge	20 / 20.75 / 85	45 / 18.25 / 140	75 / 20.95 / 180	60 / 25.75 / 160	60 / 27.75 / 160	72 / 27.77 / 68	92 / 30.76 / 180	92 / 32.76 / 180

Riibalanced 2.0/2.1
charge time (frames) / range (units) / damage
(changes are underlined)

			goo			pencil
tap shot	8 / 20.75 / 30	8 / 10.75 / 40	8 / 13.75 / 45	8 / 10.75 / 40	8 / 10.75 / 40	8 / 10.76 / 40	8 / 10.75 / 43	8 / 10.75 / 43
100 dmg	-	-	45 / 17.17 / 100.2	-	-	-	-	-
max partial	-	45 / 18.25 / 80	75 / 19.95 / 145	58 / 23.75 / 80	58 / 23.75 / 80	72 / 22.98 / 68	88 / 28.76 / 80	88 / 28.76 / 80
full charge	20 / 20.75 / 85	45 / 18.25 / 140	75 / 20.95 / 180	58 / 23.75 / 160	58 / 25.75 / 160	72 / 24.98 / 68	88 / 28.76 / 180	88 / 30.76 / 180

The more I play goober, the more it's clear to me why squiffer outclasses it.

It just... doesn't do much that squiffer doesn't. The only advantages it has are longer range tap shots, insane charge hold, and longer range full charge. The longer range full charge is the only one that makes more than a slight difference, but it can hardly make up for the longer charge time and shorter range on the first ring compared to squiffer, not to mention squiffer's charge in the air.

A 1st ring charge time buff that gives it the same length as squiffer could go three ways. It could still be outclassed by squiffer, it could itself outclass squiffer, or they would be very similar weapons with not a whole lot separating them. Think neo splash and ttek. Because of this I don't think a charge time buff is the solution. A slight one maybe, but it needs to be noticeably worse than squiffer still.

Goober needs buffs in ways that would make it more distinct from squiffer, so that they would be used for two different things. I would suggest a full charge range buff, but I worry that it would overlap with splat chargers reduced range, as even an increase of 1 unit would make them only 2 apart, and I don't know if I like that. Its charge time is considerably longer though, so it's probably fine. I think splat charger would be fine with only a 1 unit nerf though; it's already the more aggressive of the two long range chargers.

If goober gets a 1 unit full charge buff, and charger (and scope) only get a one unit full charge/max partial nerf, I think 40/135 damage is fair on it. That gives it a 51 frame first ring, which would be helpful but would still keep it significantly less than squiffer.

I still think the charge hold swim speed thing would be a good buff, but it would make more sense if it only worked on full charges, and it should only be a small speed increase. Otherwise it could be annoying to deal with.

 

[youre_a_squib_now]

Maybe. But angle shooter certainly isn't oppressive right now.

Also, it isn't too insane of a buff because the damage would also be reduced from 20/45 to 15/40, so sub defense wouldn't affect the damage, but it's basically like everyone has 2 or 3 subs of sub defense anyway.

Without making it immune to sub defense, it either (at 20/45 damage) is fine against people with it but annoyingly good against people without it (because it can kill by itself) or (with 15/40 damage) it doesn't do very much against people with sub defense (because its combos get broken) but is balanced against people without it. This way, it can be balanced for both.

I agree that this wouldn't be a great property to put on every sub, otherwise sub defense would be pointless, but I think it's okay to have on one sub. It gives angle shooter more things that are unique about it, and sub defense could still be fairly strong against the location time.

I'm curious what you think of my reasoning here.
Triple dart is possible rn with a bunch of sub saver, but it still feels underwhelming. I think these buffs would do it some good.

 

[Terret]

The more I play goober, the more it's clear to me why squiffer outclasses it.

It just... doesn't do much that squiffer doesn't. The only advantages it has are longer range tap shots, insane charge hold, and longer range full charge. The longer range full charge is the only one that makes more than a slight difference, but it can hardly make up for the longer charge time and shorter range on the first ring compared to squiffer, not to mention squiffer's charge in the air.

A 1st ring charge time buff that gives it the same length as squiffer could go three ways. It could still be outclassed by squiffer, it could itself outclass squiffer, or they would be very similar weapons with not a whole lot separating them. Think neo splash and ttek. Because of this I don't think a charge time buff is the solution. A slight one maybe, but it needs to be noticeably worse than squiffer still.

Goober needs buffs in ways that would make it more distinct from squiffer, so that they would be used for two different things. I would suggest a full charge range buff, but I worry that it would overlap with splat chargers reduced range, as even an increase of 1 unit would make them only 2 apart, and I don't know if I like that. Its charge time is considerably longer though, so it's probably fine. I think splat charger would be fine with only a 1 unit nerf though; it's already the more aggressive of the two long range chargers.

If goober gets a 1 unit full charge buff, and charger (and scope) only get a one unit full charge/max partial nerf, I think 40/135 damage is fair on it. That gives it a 51 frame first ring, which would be helpful but would still keep it significantly less than squiffer.

I still think the charge hold swim speed thing would be a good buff, but it would make more sense if it only worked on full charges, and it should only be a small speed increase. Otherwise it could be annoying to deal with.

In that particular regard of Squiffer and Goober competing with each other, I am actually mostly okay with it. I doubt they’ll flat out outclass each other unless kits are very clearly better for one than the other. And with Wave and zip buffed a good margin, I actually think it’ll be okay and needs testing to be completely sure. After all, I did give cgoo Jet. As for the charge hold midcharge, I’d personally keep it because it is in a sense part of goo’s identity and isn’t necessarily that sinful of a gimmick unlike say clash with its absurd radius. As for the ttek and Neo Splash situation, I’m not saying it definitely won’t happen because it’s suction wave Squiff vs torp missiles goo and auto zip Squiff vs fizzy jet goo. That said, I do think they’re distinct enough to not be a huge issue. If through testing they are, then I’ll work to change it but as of now I think it’s okay

 

[Terret]

I'm curious what you think of my reasoning here.
Triple dart is possible rn with a bunch of sub saver, but it still feels underwhelming. I think these buffs would do it some good.

I’ll admit, I feel like Triple Dart shouldn’t be good. I get your point on wanting to remove sub resist’s effect on the damage but I still really don’t like it because of how it goes against a fundamental part of the ability itself. Balanced it might be but I really don’t like how it betrays the fundamental point of an ability that most people are running. Triple dart is really fun though so I wouldn’t remove it as a potential OPTION for gear investment if it wasn’t absolutely necessary to remove. As of now, I do genuinely think dart is fine the way it is, though again, it kind of depends on how getting people to test it works out. That’s actually why I asked about XLink Kai

 

[youre_a_squib_now]

In that particular regard of Squiffer and Goober competing with each other, I am actually mostly okay with it. I doubt they’ll flat out outclass each other unless kits are very clearly better for one than the other. And with Wave and zip buffed a good margin, I actually think it’ll be okay and needs testing to be completely sure. After all, I did give cgoo Jet.

They already outclass each other. Squiffer is way better atm, so goo needs buffs, but it needs buffs that make it more distinct from squiffer. Because as of right now there's really no reason to use goober over it. Goober's only main advantages over squiffer are getting special fast (which doesn't matter as much since the missiles nerf) and the long range full charge. The gimmick should in theory be an advantage but it's not really worth using most of the time.
The special charging shouldn't really be buffed more, so this is why I suggested buffing the range and the gimmick.

As for the charge hold midcharge, I’d personally keep it because it is in a sense part of goo’s identity and isn’t necessarily that sinful of a gimmick unlike say clash with its absurd radius.

That's not what I was trying to say. The gimmick doesn't need to be worse, it needs to be better. I was suggesting that when/if you figure out how to increase the swim speed while holding a charge, it should only be for a full charge.
I think I've changed my mind about this though. The gimmick needs all the buffs it can get, and I don't see any real problems with gradually increasing swim speed as more charge is stored.

 

[youre_a_squib_now]

I’ll admit, I feel like Triple Dart shouldn’t be good.

Triple dart isn't the goal. It's more... a slightly unfortunate side effect of buffing the ink consumption. Fun, yes. But throwing three darts in a row shouldn't be good. That's what I'm trying to figure out how to do without reducing their value as a combo tool.

I get your point on wanting to remove sub resist’s effect on the damage but I still really don’t like it because of how it goes against a fundamental part of the ability itself. Balanced it might be but I really don’t like how it betrays the fundamental point of an ability that most people are running.

Fair.

Triple dart is really fun though so I wouldn’t remove it as a potential OPTION for gear investment if it wasn’t absolutely necessary to remove.

I brought up that triple dart is possible in the base game to point out that it's not broken or anything. I don't think we'd need to be worried about dart by itself getting kills.

Being able to use dart more often did feel really nice though, but it shouldn't take three mains of sub saver just to have good ink consumption.

As of now, I do genuinely think dart is fine the way it is...

Dart has always been a bottom tier sub. Changing the damage from 0/40 to 20/45 is a really nice buff and fixes two of the major issues with it (the tripwire doing almost nothing and sub defense breaking combos) but it still uses a lot of ink for how much it does, and that will still be a problem. I honestly think it would be okay to give it 30% ink consumption without any compensation nerfs. It might be really good then, but probably not, and even if it is, it would only be around splat bomb or suction bomb level, which is a really good spot.

though again, it kind of depends on how getting people to test it works out. That’s actually why I asked about XLink Kai

I should look into this.